Halifax Stadium Discussion

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

So to put it in political terms - how many cops and firemen do you want to let go to pay for operating this thing?

This is a flimsy line of reasoning. First of all, the city and province operate with capital budgets every year and these don't require "letting go" of employees. Really you are talking about the opportunity cost of building a stadium.

Another simple fact is that the utility of police or firemen drop as you hire more (if HRM had 5 firemen then 5 more would be very useful, but if it had 10,000 then 5 more would not be useful - though the fire dept would still ask for more money). Often, putting more money into a government service produces little or no benefit. It is entirely possible that building a stadium might make more sense than investing in more essential services. Government is all about balancing different priorities, not picking top priorities and then sinking tons of money into them.

[Waye Mason]

Originally Posted by someone123

This is a flimsy line of reasoning. First of all, the city and province operate with capital budgets every year and these don't require "letting go" of employees. Really you are talking about the opportunity cost of building a stadium.

Another simple fact is that the utility of police or firemen drop as you hire more (if HRM had 5 firemen then 5 more would be very useful, but if it had 10,000 then 5 more would not be useful - though the fire dept would still ask for more money). Often, putting more money into a government service produces little or no benefit. It is entirely possible that building a stadium might make more sense than investing in more essential services. Government is all about balancing different priorities, not picking top priorities and then sinking tons of money into them.

Please re-read my post and then respond to what I said about the cost of OPERATING any facility, stadium included.

[someone123]

It looks mostly like you just pointed out that there will be operating costs associated with a stadium, which I think everybody was already aware of.

I don't think anybody is selling a stadium as a money generator, just like nobody sold the new library as a money generator. It's a public amenity - it costs money but produces a benefit for the public.

[Waye Mason]

Originally Posted by someone123

It looks mostly like you just pointed out that there will be operating costs associated with a stadium, which I think everybody was already aware of.

I don't think anybody is selling a stadium as a money generator, just like nobody sold the new library as a money generator. It's a public amenity - it costs money but produces a benefit for the public.

Which brings us back around to my main point. If it cost $10 million a year to operate, or $20, we couldn't afford it. I want to see a business plan for it, amenity or no. We need to understand the total cost of ownership in various configurations, 5K seats, 15K, 25K, so we can understand what the options are.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

Which brings us back around to my main point.

Your main point? People have mentioned operating costs and studies since this thread was made about a year ago.

I don't think $10-20M a year is a reasonable estimation unless this somehow becomes a $500M stadium for big pro sports teams (you said 2-4% was normal, said $50M in capital costs was unreasonably high, then invented the figure of 10-20M?). A big part of the issue with this thread is that there is no actual project to talk about. If a stadium plan were created it could be either reasonable or unreasonable.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

Which brings us back around to my main point. If it cost $10 million a year to operate, or $20, we couldn't afford it. I want to see a business plan for it, amenity or no. We need to understand the total cost of ownership in various configurations, 5K seats, 15K, 25K, so we can understand what the options are.

Do you support the new central library, Waye?

[Waye Mason]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Do you support the new central library, Waye?

Operationally, I do, as I understand the business case for it, and the HRL says they can operate it within their current budget. The old library needed to be replaced, and cost far to much to keep open, and was becoming dangerous to staff and patrons.

A stadium is not replacing an old facility with a new one, this is a totally new line item.

Isn't anyone else curious about how much it costs to operate and maintain a facility before they can get behind building one?

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

Which brings us back around to my main point. If it cost $10 million a year to operate, or $20, we couldn't afford it. I want to see a business plan for it, amenity or no. We need to understand the total cost of ownership in various configurations, 5K seats, 15K, 25K, so we can understand what the options are.

I agree with that. (EDITED: If you mean $10 million or $20 million a year to operate.) However, I don't think that you have been following this thread for the past year. You are just jumping in and making all sorts of assumptions, one being that people on this forum are foolish enough to want a stadium that that will cost $10 million a year to operate. How much effort have you put into looking at various stadium options. Look at the two below - will it cost the same to operate the first one as the lower one? Of course not.

(source: http://georgetownfootball.blogspot.com/2009/08/postcards-from-road.html )


(source: http://where.ca/travel/index.php/tag/baseball/ )


Most of your points have already been stated by many people many times before. Can you add some real information? For example show some stadiums that might be appealing to the majority but low cost to operate. Nobody is talking about a stadium with escalators, elevators, retractable roof, etc. The stadium below has been around for over two thousand years and I bet there were long periods of time when it received very little in maintenance dollars.

http://onthetrailofhiddengems.blogspot.com/2009/09/ancient-epidaurus-amphitheatre.html

[Waye Mason]

I'm sorry, but I was responding to issues raised by specific members of this forum in the last week and contributing my two cents.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

Operationally, I do, as I understand the business case for it, and the HRL says they can operate it within their current budget.

That is a blatant lie and everyone knows it. They are expanding programs, collections, and facilities dramatically. There is no way they can operate it within their current budget. Everyone knows that. But nobody wants to admit it.

Business case? WHAT business case? There is no "business case" for this library, or perhaps any library. It is no different from a stadium in that respect. It is a cost center, nothing more.

Isn't anyone else curious about how much it costs to operate and maintain a facility before they can get behind building one?

Indeed. Which is why I asked the question. Apparently it is OK to fabricate numbers if the cause is one that is deemed worthy. And apparently it is OK to dismiss numbers if the cause is one that is deemed unworthy, as the CC opponents have consistently done.

We seem to have problems with consistency in this town.

[-Harlington-]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

A stadium is not replacing an old facility with a new one, this is a totally new line item.

uhh, what?
our best facility right now is huskies stadium and its falling apart, its actually disgusting how a city our size only has this and fields with bleachers around it to show. we need a stadium, period .

[halifaxboyns]

Waye, let me ask you this question: What was the business case for the 4 pad arena? The same with any new civic building? They don't make money back to cover operations - no where near, yet we build these things because they help create a complete community. Let's face it: why would people want to live somewhere, if they couldn't enjoy living there (bring up their kids, feel safe, have a good job, etc.)?

That was and still is the issue in Fort Mac - yet the city decided to invest in recreation facilities there anyway; because they knew it was for the betterment of the community. Mac Island is a huge complex; I've not seen it but I have to go up there on Friday so I might go have a look. Everyone talks about a complete community and yes, HRM is growing. 400K and climbing and I suspect will easily continue to grow (I disagree with the projections for NS's population steadily decreasing, I think with good economic stimulus it will change).

But to make a community complete; you need all the things that make a community complete - like those you talked about: police, teachers, fireman. But you also need things for the residents: recreation centres, libraries, etc. A stadium is a major component for a big community to help with sport development and yes, your probably right it will cost money. But to say that the tourism that could happen will only be from the metro area I think is silly. If what happened in Moncton is any indication - I think we're see a wide cross section all over the Maritimes. I actually believe people would take a maritime team to the same level as rider-nation (just to a maritime scale).

I go back to what staff said in regards to the presentation about the convention centre: it's harder to quantify positive spin offs than negatives. We have to move past some of these BD opinions of spending money and realize that yes, some things cost money. But they can recoup some of the cost over time with spinoffs from tourism (as an example).

[Waye Mason]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

That is a blatant lie and everyone knows it. They are expanding programs, collections, and facilities dramatically. There is no way they can operate it within their current budget. Everyone knows that.

You may or may not be justified in your seemingly unreasoning hatred of Judith Hare, but only time will tell if the business plan/operating costs outlined in the many easily accessable documents on line is a lie, or not. Unlike anything TCL does, the documents are easily accessible, and did not require a court order, political pressure or a FOI request to get them. You may not think this is an important difference, but I do. HRL says they can operate the new building for $1.8 mil per year and HRM finance agrees. Are you saying Cathy O'Toole is a fool or a liar?

$55 million isn't even that much money for a library that is a signature building, Vancouver (city, not greater Van) paid $106 million for theirs 15 years ago.

Originally Posted by -Harlington-

uhh, what?
our best facility right now is huskies stadium and its falling apart, its actually disgusting how a city our size only has this and fields with bleachers around it to show. we need a stadium, period .

Husky stadium is not a municipal facility. SMU pays (or does not, as it seems clear) to operate and maintain this building. If HRM build a stadium, that is a new cost to Parks and Rec. If TCL builds or operates it, it is a new cost to TCL. If the stadium is not built at Husky Field, or nearby, and SMU does not use it, then they will continue to have their own field, and not contribute to operating a new field.

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

Waye, let me ask you this question: What was the business case for the 4 pad arena? The same with any new civic building? They don't make money back to cover operations - no where near, yet we build these things because they help create a complete community. Let's face it: why would people want to live somewhere, if they couldn't enjoy living there (bring up their kids, feel safe, have a good job, etc.)?

Well, Parks and Rec in HRM does try and operate at an "approaching cost recovery" level, which is why it costs so damn much to rent ice or go for a swim with your kids. But there is a cost to operate, yes. When you are talking about a public facility the business plan, or if you will, operating plan, shows how much it will cost. You have to determine if you can afford out of current tax revenues to operate and maintain every new building, so its not just about the cost to build, but the total cost of ownership (TCO).

A football field rented at $160 an hour on a non-game day is not going to generate a lot of revenue towards its own operating costs. I want to know what those revenue and costs together look like.

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

But to make a community complete; you need all the things that make a community complete - like those you talked about: police, teachers, fireman. But you also need things for the residents: recreation centres, libraries, etc. A stadium is a major component for a big community to help with sport development and yes, your probably right it will cost money. But to say that the tourism that could happen will only be from the metro area I think is silly. If what happened in Moncton is any indication - I think we're see a wide cross section all over the Maritimes. I actually believe people would take a maritime team to the same level as rider-nation (just to a maritime scale).

Tourism gains are measurable and quantifiable. The fact that Power would not release ticket sales data (which is industry standard, btw, promoters always release this info) screams to me that he does have data that backs up the tourism assessment. If Power, TCL, or NS Tourism had sales data on advance tickets based on addresses that showed tourism they would have trumpeted that. I think it will be the same for CFL. Some small tourism, in the hundreds to thousands, which we get anyway with far less expense in other sport events and cultural events, so its not a great arguement.

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

I go back to what staff said in regards to the presentation about the convention centre: it's harder to quantify positive spin offs than negatives. We have to move past some of these BD opinions of spending money and realize that yes, some things cost money. But they can recoup some of the cost over time with spinoffs from tourism (as an example).

Just because something is a good idea does not mean we can afford it. Obviously, it would be wonderful to have every little thing we can think of. But that way lies madness. That is why the province is $12.5 billion in debt.

If we could build our way out of economic malaise, why didn't it work in the 1980s and 90s when we were spending like drunken sailors?

We need to balance the HRM and provincial budget, not just get the deficit in hand, but get back on top of maintaining our infrastructure, stop "defering maintainace". Any new build, like a stadium, needs to be modest, and designed with operating cost in mind

[fenwick16]

Yesterday, I made a video animation of a 3D model that I drew and posted on this forum back in early September (almost 3 months ago). This is located North of the Halifax Forum (shown in the video). It seats 31,000 which I realize is too big to be built in Halifax at this time. Hopefully, Halifax will have a fair size stadium sometime in the future. But for now it would be nice to even see something in the 15,000 - 20,000 seat range.

The video can be viewed best in YouTube at 720p resolution.

• Video Link

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

You may or may not be justified in your seemingly unreasoning hatred of Judith Hare, but only time will tell if the business plan/operating costs outlined in the many easily accessable documents on line is a lie, or not. Unlike anything TCL does, the documents are easily accessible, and did not require a court order, political pressure or a FOI request to get them. You may not think this is an important difference, but I do. HRL says they can operate the new building for $1.8 mil per year and HRM finance agrees. Are you saying Cathy O'Toole is a fool or a liar?

Cathy O'Toole has nothing to do with it, though I wold point out that she has overseen both the spiralling pattern of out of control HRM spending as well as being in charge of the finances during the period in which the infamous "funding gap" occurred. She's a nice lady and is able to wave her hands and make council feel good. Is she a good Finance chief? Time will tell. But in any event, Queen Judith reports to a Board, not council, and is able to get away with murder because of that. It is patently ridiculous to contend that you can triple the size of a facility, add all sorts of new programs, technology, and clients, and not spend any more. Only in the dream world of HRM bureaucracy is such alchemy possible.

[brettinhalifax]

account deleted

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by beyeas

I am not sure what you mean by CFL sized stadium not being allowed on campus. Montreal Als play at McGill do they not?

The situation at McGill and Saint Mary's aren't comparable.

Molson was already a 20,000 seat stadium before the Alouettes came along. If you've lived in Montreal, you'd also know that the area in which the stadium is located is much further away from residents than would be the case at Saint Mary's. Even so, the Alouettes had a monumental battle just bumping Molson up by 5,000 seats.

Getting some of Halifax's wealthiest citizens (right on Tower Road and other South End streets) to agree to a Huskies' Stadium expansion from 4,000 to 25,000 permanent seats is just not going to happen. It would certainly kill 2 birds with one stone, but I really can't see this being an option.

If the goal is the continued prosperity of Saint Mary's football and the eventual arrival of a CFL team in Halifax, I don't see any other option than 2 stadia. Halifax is small, but it's not that small. A 6,000 seat college football stadium on campus and a 25,000 seat CFL stadium somewhere else isn't an over build. In Moncton it would be.

Having said that, the only way you could build a stadium that met both the needs of a future CFL team and college football would be to have one built close to Saint Mary's or Dalhousie. Even out by the forum might be too far away, but probably the most likely solution if the decision is 1 stadium. The forum site is large enough and the residents there will put up less of a fight. Most places further south (closer to SMU and Dal) just don't seem feasible.

[beyeas]

What I was disagreeing with was the blanket statement that CFL stadiums are not allowed on campuses, which is simply not true. Whether it is the right thing to do in Halifax is a valid debate for the reasons you cited, but the statement I was challenging simply isn't true (given the McGill situation).

[Waye Mason]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Cathy O'Toole has nothing to do with it, though I wold point out that she has overseen both the spiralling pattern of out of control HRM spending as well as being in charge of the finances during the period in which the infamous "funding gap" occurred. She's a nice lady and is able to wave her hands and make council feel good. Is she a good Finance chief? Time will tell. But in any event, Queen Judith reports to a Board, not council, and is able to get away with murder because of that. It is patently ridiculous to contend that you can triple the size of a facility, add all sorts of new programs, technology, and clients, and not spend any more. Only in the dream world of HRM bureaucracy is such alchemy possible.

Not to hijack this thread, but the capital expense was vetted by O'Toole and approved by HRM Council. They are saying $1.8 million a year and they can do it in budget, I assume they will cut the space they are renting in Dartmouth for admin and close Memorial to cover it. http://www.halifaxcentrallibrary.ca/asse...rary-Funding-Strategy-Report-Council.pdf

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by beyeas

What I was disagreeing with was the blanket statement that CFL stadiums are not allowed on campuses, which is simply not true. Whether it is the right thing to do in Halifax is a valid debate for the reasons you cited, but the statement I was challenging simply isn't true (given the McGill situation).

I thought it was obvious that when I said 'on campus' it meant on the Saint Mary's campus as we were discussing the needs of SMU football and the CFL in Halifax.