Calgary Public Transit II

[UofC.engineer]

Originally Posted by Koolfire

Build an interchange and do it right from the start. Seriously, it's either a 2 lane underpass or 2 lane bridge over 14th similar to 12th St NE over Memorial but shorter. The cost difference would be marginal.

I agree, and I asked one of the representitives this question but they said interchanges would cost too much money and cause an outrage from the near by residents.

In my opinion the whole plan seems ridiculous because 14th street is about 1.3kms from the C-train line

[Koolfire]

Originally Posted by UofC.engineer

I agree, and I asked one of the representitives this question but they said interchanges would cost too much money and cause an outrage from the near by residents.

In my opinion the whole plan seems ridiculous because 14th street is about 1.3kms from the C-train line

Bah, interchange would only be marginally more. As for outrage, I think everyone in Calgary should be outraged that they would build an underpass instead. Either do an interchange or scrap the idea and go with priority lights like Sir Humphery said.

[Robert in Calgary]

Originally Posted by UofC.engineer

On Tuesday I went to the SW BRT open house at Southland leisure centre.

I made it to the Rockyview session.

The lady I talked to mentioned about $35 million for construction and $15 million for buses.

I would have liked to have seen more information on the plans for turning MRU into a transit hub.

I can certainly imagine folks who want to go straight downtown complaining about stopping at MRU.

[para transit fellow]

seattle snow nov 22 2010
what for the bus at about the 3:15 mark

[MonctonGoldenFlames]

Originally Posted by UofC.engineer

Haha, hey man, let's not get outta hand here.

I just think a commuter travelling from Mckenzie Towne to Downtown using CT should be able to do so in 30 minutes or less.

The distance between the two destinations is about 16.5km as the crow flys.

Is this unreasonable?

a commuter in a private vehicle can barely do that on a good day! i believe it's unreasonable, yes. in perfect driving conditions, it has to be around a 25 minute drive from mckenzie town to downtown on deerfoot to memorial, travelling most of the way at 100 km/hr. and you expect a train, travelling at lower speeds (70 km/hr?), with frequent stops to take you to the same destination in about the same time?

i am all for having lrt to the se, don't get me wrong. but the practical engineer side of you has to see that your plan is far fetched and a little selfish.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by UofC.engineer

On Tuesday I went to the SW BRT open house at Southland leisure centre.

The overall plan:

1. Bus only lane will start at Southland drive and then head north up 14th street

2. Both North/South lanes will run on the west side on 14th St

3. A Bus only underpass at 90th ave

4. Bus lanes on Glenmore and Crowchild

5. Stops at Mount Royal

6. Rough estimates price it at $30-50 million

Let's hear what you guys think

Ahh, Calgary Transit- making ad hoc decisions again. This is another example (along with the Centre Street Subway) that illustrates the need for a long-term network plan for Calgary.

I like a lot of the things proposed here, but some of them won't make sense. A stop at Mount Royal should be on a circle route, part of which connects Westbrook to Heritage Station (and eventually Shepard Road Station on the SELRT line) that passes though Mount Royal and Rockyview. This 14th Street BRT should include a transfer station (probably at Rockyview) to connect this SW-Downtown BRT to the circle route.

Transit planning should never, never be done in isolation of a long-term network plan. CT does this over and over again.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by MonctonGoldenFlames

a commuter in a private vehicle can barely do that on a good day! i believe it's unreasonable, yes. in perfect driving conditions, it has to be around a 25 minute drive from mckenzie town to downtown on deerfoot to memorial, travelling most of the way at 100 km/hr. and you expect a train, travelling at lower speeds (70 km/hr?), with frequent stops to take you to the same destination in about the same time?

i am all for having lrt to the se, don't get me wrong. but the practical engineer side of you has to see that your plan is far fetched and a little selfish.

Deerfoot and Memorial are anything but a straight line way to get DT from the south. Hence, an LRT line (they go 80 by the way) can be much faster. If you can't make 16.5km in 30 minutes, you're doing it wrong.

Even with stops, the LRT from the NW is almost always faster than driving, so I don't see why the SE should be any different.

[You Need A Thneed]

SW BRT Brochure

Open House Displays

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by fusili

Ahh, Calgary Transit- making ad hoc decisions again. This is another example (along with the Centre Street Subway) that illustrates the need for a long-term network plan for Calgary.

I like a lot of the things proposed here, but some of them won't make sense. A stop at Mount Royal should be on a circle route, part of which connects Westbrook to Heritage Station (and eventually Shepard Road Station on the SELRT line) that passes though Mount Royal and Rockyview. This 14th Street BRT should include a transfer station (probably at Rockyview) to connect this SW-Downtown BRT to the circle route.

Transit planning should never, never be done in isolation of a long-term network plan. CT does this over and over again.

I think they are doing this in response to a motion from Brian Pincott no? Calgary Transit can't put in a long term plan if council keeps telling them to build specific parts out of sequence.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby

I think they are doing this in response to a motion from Brian Pincott no? Calgary Transit can't put in a long term plan if council keeps telling them to build specific parts out of sequence.

Council needs to give CT clear direction to create a long term plan. Sequencing isn't as important as knowing what the final routes are. If the SW BRT goes ahead instead of a portion of a circle route, it isn't that big of a deal. But if the SW BRT is planned completely in isolation of the idea that there will be a circle route, mistakes will definitely be made.

[UofC.engineer]

Originally Posted by freeweed

Deerfoot and Memorial are anything but a straight line way to get DT from the south. Hence, an LRT line (they go 80 by the way) can be much faster. If you can't make 16.5km in 30 minutes, you're doing it wrong.

Even with stops, the LRT from the NW is almost always faster than driving, so I don't see why the SE should be any different.

Agreed; Somerset to downtown is 19km long and it takes a little less than 30mins

[DarkKeyo]

Originally Posted by fusili

Council needs to give CT clear direction to create a long term plan. Sequencing isn't as important as knowing what the final routes are. If the SW BRT goes ahead instead of a portion of a circle route, it isn't that big of a deal. But if the SW BRT is planned completely in isolation of the idea that there will be a circle route, mistakes will definitely be made.

I was at the MRU SWBRT open house yesterday, and asked a few questions about the overall network. There is no funding or timeline for the SWBRT, only plans, they will be planning a bunch of BRT routes this way in the near future, because early next year an overall BRT network plan will go before council. Presumably they will plan the Westbrook-MRU-Heritage(?) BRT then because I was told that it will be in place to open with the WLRT. I don't know if that BRT will connect to Rockyview, though, fusili.

I totally agree that a clear direction is needed for a long term plan. The answers to my questions suggest there isn't one. They have that map (on page 3 of the open house displays linked to a few posts ago) with all the planned rapid transit corridors, including crosstown routes, but it's really just lines on a map at this point. A lot of those crosstown routes are very necessary.

It was also mentioned that the 17th Ave SE corridor had been approved, which I hadn't heard about.

As for the SELRT, they were pretty keen on separating mention of that from mention of GreenTRIP, that they would need to do a couple years of planning before work could even start (which, as long as they are doing the planning, is what would happen anyways). As for the debate on the previous page of this thread, SELRT to Douglasglen is all right and great for people in Ogden but useless for the rather more people south of Douglasglen. Build it all the way or not at all. They told me that the idea of a P3 has been tossed around a bit...

[Dado]

Originally Posted by UofC.engineer

On Tuesday I went to the SW BRT open house at Southland leisure centre.

The overall plan:

1. Bus only lane will start at Southland drive and then head north up 14th street

2. Both North/South lanes will run on the west side on 14th St

Do you (or anyone else) know why this is? There's space on the east side of 14th as far north as 82 Ave that could be used rather than shuffling everything around to accommodate them on the west side. Granted, Heritage Park and Rockyview Hospital are on the west side, but they're both north of 82nd anyway where space is more constrained, so something different will have to be done there regardless of what happens south of there.

The diagrams of the cross section also show the typical lack of imagination we get with BRT (I realized long after I wrote this that it was prepared by Delcan... who are responsible for Ottawa's BRT system, so the lack of imagination makes sense now... Beware, Calgary, beware...). Basically, it will look like this, looking north:

|Bus lane|Bus lane|divider|Lane|Lane|Lane|Median|Lane|Lane|Lane|

Where do the bus platforms go, especially for the northbound direction? Here's what they could do instead:

|Bus lane|Median/platform/sidewalk|Bus lane|Lane|Lane|Lane|Median|Lane|Lane|Lane|

Basically you run the buses "contraflow" to each other such that the westmost lane of the cross section (going with their plan) is for northbound buses (or, alternatively, think of it as a single lane busway for the northbound direction). The southbound buses travel in a lane added to the width of the roadway, which can have a nominal separation if need be. Given the layout of 14th, it would be easier to reverse this cross section and put the buses on the east side.

3. A Bus only underpass at 90th ave

... which could be avoided by going on the east side of 14th...

I also have to confess I don't understand the discussion on an interchange vs an underpass here.

4. Bus lanes on Glenmore and Crowchild

5. Stops at Mount Royal

6. Rough estimates price it at $30-50 million

Let's hear what you guys think

What is the point of it? Especially the parts south of Glenmore. Why would anyone headed downtown want to use this rather than the nearby South LRT?

[MalcolmTucker]

What is the point of it? Especially the parts south of Glenmore. Why would anyone headed downtown want to use this rather than the nearby South LRT?

For at least 4 years the south LRT will still be at or near crush capacity at peak, service reliability is becoming an issue for inner stations. North of Heritage the infrastructure is still useful as a primary link after that, at least until 50th Ave and Crowchild for MRU access would be useful. Not that I think it is worth the money for any permanent infrastructure beyond HOV lanes, but I could be convinced by a real study.

[srperrycgy]

Originally Posted by Dado

What is the point of it? Especially the parts south of Glenmore. Why would anyone headed downtown want to use this rather than the nearby South LRT?

LRT is overcrowded at peak hours now. Folks are starting to abandon it. The P-n-R fee adds to the problem.

I'm not in favour of this idea for the simple fact that the LRT platforms will be extended to accommodate 4-LRV trains in the near future. As a stop-gap until this work is done, CT could run some Premium Express buses instead of spending $50M. This is a PR exercise by Brian Pincott, pure and simple.

[McPaul]

Apparently there will be a mini grand opening of the Westwinds ped bridge with hot chocolate in the second week of December.

Besides being ecstatic that I'll have a safe walk to work now, I'm rather surprised they are doing a special event. For a bridge. -shrug-

Took them long enough though. This thing has essentially been done for a few weeks now minus a couple of railing sections and an inspection.

I'll post more details as I hear them...

[that_twisted_cm]

Originally Posted by fusili

Ahh, Calgary Transit- making ad hoc decisions again. This is another example (along with the Centre Street Subway) that illustrates the need for a long-term network plan for Calgary.

I like a lot of the things proposed here, but some of them won't make sense. A stop at Mount Royal should be on a circle route, part of which connects Westbrook to Heritage Station (and eventually Shepard Road Station on the SELRT line) that passes though Mount Royal and Rockyview. This 14th Street BRT should include a transfer station (probably at Rockyview) to connect this SW-Downtown BRT to the circle route.

Transit planning should never, never be done in isolation of a long-term network plan. CT does this over and over again.

The richest thing that I got at the MRU open house is that this is MRU's fault...this was from a promise to MRU to get it done in 2007.

I thought...if this goes to Woodbine, then WHAT THE HELL does it have to do with MRU any more?

[Calgary_Guy]

Anyone else experience the frustration with the Centre Street & McKnight Blvd. intersection during rush hour? Most evenings the traffic is backed up to as far as 40th Ave. North where Tim Horton's sits. The road has a great deal of bus traffic and the lights are timed to stay green for only 30 seconds at a time. It is common to wait for 7 or 8 sequences of lights turning green to red. The problem is Deerfoot congestion on most days going north is only getting worse, and now 4th Street is feeling the effects of this growing frustrations among many motorists. I could never figure out why McKnight was not widened between Deerfoot and 4th Street before all the paving work was done this past summer.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by that_twisted_cm

The richest thing that I got at the MRU open house is that this is MRU's fault...this was from a promise to MRU to get it done in 2007.

I thought...if this goes to Woodbine, then WHAT THE HELL does it have to do with MRU any more?

Heritage or Chinook to MRU, Westgate or 26th St, and somewhere on the NW LRT line was promised in 2008 when the west LRT was approved as a 'price' for stopping discussions about realigning the west LRT to serve MRC at the time.

[DenOfSlack]

Originally Posted by Calgary_Guy

Anyone else experience the frustration with the Centre Street & McKnight Blvd. intersection during rush hour? Most evenings the traffic is backed up to as far as 40th Ave. North where Tim Horton's sits. The road has a great deal of bus traffic and the lights are timed to stay green for only 30 seconds at a time. It is common to wait for 7 or 8 sequences of lights turning green to red. The problem is Deerfoot congestion on most days going north is only getting worse, and now 4th Street is feeling the effects of this growing frustrations among many motorists. I could never figure out why McKnight was not widened between Deerfoot and 4th Street before all the paving work was done this past summer.

It has been that way for the 8 or so years I have been riding the bus through that area. It gets bad enough sometimes during the evening rush (northbound) that cars turning left at McKnight will pull into the oncoming lane at the bottom of the hill and drive several hundred meters in the oncoming lane.

I have sent a few emails to the city asking about lane reversal as there is never more than the occasional car going the other way.

Easily adds 10-15 minutes to the commute home almost every single day