Lansdowne Park Redevelopment Phase 1 | Completed

[umbria27]

Originally Posted by O-Town Hockey

from www.ctvottawa.ca
Whole Foods is awesome (though pricey), there's not enough LCBO's in central Ottawa, and a movie theatre in the Glebe would be great!

Unfortunately this seems to confirm BIAs contention that the Lansdowne retail would cannibalize the existing Bank Street retail. Whole Foods is a good grocer, but their business plan is a lot like Walmart's. They thrive by taking out the little guy first. When they move into an area they aggressively target existing organic/bulk food stores, starving the competition out with loss leaders. Kardish and the Glebe Meat Market are the obvious targets.
Putting an LCBO at Lansdowne, likely also means that the one 800m down the road at Clemow will close.
This was the danger all along, that we were subsidizing one landlord to steal away businesses from other landlords. The supposed benefit of retail at Lansdowne is to revitalize the area. The real danger is that it will suck the life out of Bank.

[Merganser]

Opinion piece by Bruce Firestone on why the Hockey Rink is where it is. Anything sound familiar?

" What about Lansdowne Park? There were two significant issues with that choice. Firstly, there are more lawyers living in the Glebe than practically anywhere else in Ottawa. How would they and the Glebe community react to another two million visitors descending on their neighbourhood? I can tell you from hard experience – not well. The planning for a new arena might have taken years to get approved, if ever....."

http://www.obj.ca/Opinion/Bruce-Fire...is-in-Kanata/1

[ThaLoveDocta]

Originally Posted by umbria27

Unfortunately this seems to confirm BIAs contention that the Lansdowne retail would cannibalize the existing Bank Street retail. Whole Foods is a good grocer, but their business plan is a lot like Walmart's. They thrive by taking out the little guy first. When they move into an area they aggressively target existing organic/bulk food stores, starving the competition out with loss leaders. Kardish and the Glebe Meat Market are the obvious targets.
Putting an LCBO at Lansdowne, likely also means that the one 800m down the road at Clemow will close.
This was the danger all along, that we were subsidizing one landlord to steal away businesses from other landlords. The supposed benefit of retail at Lansdowne is to revitalize the area. The real danger is that it will suck the life out of Bank.

I'm not sure how closing a rather unsightly LCBO in favour of a nicer, bigger new one is killing bank street.... Especially when it opens an entire lot to redevelopment...
In fact, making it a flagship store (like Rideau) might even draw in shoppers from other parts of the city. I often drive across town to the Rideau store to peruse the VQA selection and specialty single malts.

I do see what you're getting at, but I think you underestimate the exclusive tastes of Glebe clientele. Glebeites already pay more than they could or would elsewhere, yet, they shop at these stores anyway.

[K-133]

Originally Posted by ThaLoveDocta

Putting an LCBO at Lansdowne, likely also means that the one 800m down the road at Clemow will close.

Just as the one Clemow drowned out the one 400m away at Catherine and Elgin?

I'll agree that the grocer is a dangerous proposition however, there's a reason that specialty stores succeed. If the hearts of the community truly lie with local business, they'll continue to prop them up. The power is still in the consumer's hands.

I think that this project will bring more people to the area and hence, more spillover to Bank street shops as well.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by umbria27

Unfortunately this seems to confirm BIAs contention that the Lansdowne retail would cannibalize the existing Bank Street retail. Whole Foods is a good grocer, but their business plan is a lot like Walmart's. They thrive by taking out the little guy first. When they move into an area they aggressively target existing organic/bulk food stores, starving the competition out with loss leaders. Kardish and the Glebe Meat Market are the obvious targets.
Putting an LCBO at Lansdowne, likely also means that the one 800m down the road at Clemow will close.
This was the danger all along, that we were subsidizing one landlord to steal away businesses from other landlords. The supposed benefit of retail at Lansdowne is to revitalize the area. The real danger is that it will suck the life out of Bank.

I don't exactly buy that. Introducing new retail at Lansdowne might force some businesses to close shop, but that provides an opportunity for new development and/or new retail opportunities. Bank St. is a main street of Ottawa; it's not going to die.

[citizen j]

Keep in mind, though, that unlike Wal-Mart, Whole Foods doesn't proliferate across an extensive urban area. In the entire GTA (6 million+) there are 2: one in downtown Toronto and one in Oakville. So, bad news for specialty stores on Bank St in the immediate vicinity but not likely to affect businesses as adversely as you move farther out from the Glebe and Old Ottawa South. Whole Foods is also targeting a very specific (read "affluent") clientele. So, this isn't quite the same as Wal-Mart that devastates a much wider local retail spectrum. If what you want is $5 muffins and picture-perfect meat and produce at a premium price, Whole Foods is your store. If you're looking for something that seems less like an investment and more like affordable groceries that you might want to eat rather than decorate your perfect kitchen with, the local alternatives are more attractive. Which is why there's a newly expanded Loblaws affiliate a few blocks from the Yorkville location of Whole Foods, along with a string of smaller local green grocers just to the west. Ottawa's retail universe won't implode and the Glebe will survive (with elevated real estate values intact, except perhaps along Holmwood where developers have evidently planned an open-pit strip-mining operation) despite what you might hear from the current prophets of the Apocalypse.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by umbria27

This was the danger all along, that we were subsidizing one landlord to steal away businesses from other landlords. The supposed benefit of retail at Lansdowne is to revitalize the area. The real danger is that it will suck the life out of Bank.

An LCBO move down the street would be a true tragedy in my view, but that's just because I'd need to walk another 5 blocks to get my alcohol.

You may have a point that the retail mix will change, but you are forgetting that Minto is already the biggest landlord in the Glebe. They have clearly studied the issue, and I think it is safe to say that they aren't projecting that their existing Bank St. commercial properties will be cannibalized.

[lrt's friend]

Given these concerns, I think this shows the importance of having a balanced development which includes residential and offices. Both of these are going to expand retail traffic in the Glebe and at Lansdowne in order to support the additional businesses. Also, if the new businesses are unique enough, you are going to draw more customers from surrounding communities. What we want is a net inflow of retail trade whereas today with a limited selection of stores, there is likely a net outflow of retail trade from the Glebe. I think that the redesign of Bank Street which will coincide with the Lansdowne development will keep the Bank Street businesses viable in the longer term. Bury those power lines! Also, the Lansdowne businesses are designed to be a continuation of the Glebe will help keep it viable. This is not quite the same as when the Rideau Centre sucked all the business out of Sparks Street. In the case of Sparks Street, there is a phyical divide between it and the Rideau Centre namely Confederation Square that hastened Sparks Street demise. That and an ongoing decline in the downtown population.

[citizen j]

^ Exactly. This is an extension of the Glebe. To characterize it as a suburban big-box retail complex that has landed space-craft-like in the middle of a neighbourhood is disingenuous. It not only provides additional retail but additional residents and reduces rather than increases the amount of paved surface. Looking forward to the finished product. I would definitely visit this project outside of game time, whereas there are at least a half a dozen other parks in the city I'd visit first before paying for parking to walk around an empty greenspace at Lansdowne (and spend nothing in the local retail economy in the process).

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by citizen j

^ Exactly. This is an extension of the Glebe. To characterize it as a suburban big-box retail complex that has landed space-craft-like in the middle of a neighbourhood is disingenuous. It not only provides additional retail but additional residents and reduces rather than increases the amount of paved surface. Looking forward to the finished product. I would definitely visit this project outside of game time, whereas there are at least a half a dozen other parks in the city I'd visit first before paying for parking to walk around an empty greenspace at Lansdowne (and spend nothing in the local retail economy in the process).

I will take that one step further, if we turn Lansdowne into a traditional park, I think a lot of Ottawans will feel sadness by making the uses much more passive. The more we take away from Lansdowne, the more profound the sadness. I really think that the loss of the Ex at the location has not fully sunk in yet. And if we tear down the stadium, the loss of football at Lansdowne and the memories becomes absolute. If we offset the losses by making Lansdowne more active and exciting, we will help Ottawans deal with the losses.

A perfect example of this long-term sadness relates to Ottawa's streetcars, although that generation has now mostly passed. Ottawa's streetcars were considered antequated and a traffic nuisance in the 1950s but many Ottawans continued to express fond memories and a sense of loss for years and years following their demise. The same can be said about the loss of Union Station and for those who remember the Capitol Theatre.

It is funny how nostalgia suddenly arises from what had previously been considered old and useless.

[c_speed3108]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Given these concerns, I think this shows the importance of having a balanced development which includes residential and offices. Both of these are going to expand retail traffic in the Glebe and at Lansdowne in order to support the additional businesses. Also, if the new businesses are unique enough, you are going to draw more customers from surrounding communities. What we want is a net inflow of retail trade whereas today with a limited selection of stores, there is likely a net outflow of retail trade from the Glebe. I think that the redesign of Bank Street which will coincide with the Lansdowne development will keep the Bank Street businesses viable in the longer term. Bury those power lines! Also, the Lansdowne businesses are designed to be a continuation of the Glebe will help keep it viable. This is not quite the same as when the Rideau Centre sucked all the business out of Sparks Street. In the case of Sparks Street, there is a phyical divide between it and the Rideau Centre namely Confederation Square that hastened Sparks Street demise. That and an ongoing decline in the downtown population.

I think there were (and still are) more problems with sparks street than just that. The federal gov doesn't make a very good retail landlord whereas outfits like Minto, Trinity, Riocan, Morguard, Viking Rideau are pros at. They give retailers what they want, whereas the government is too busy pushing overarching government policies like bilingualism. Businesses just flock where they can operate easily and successfully.

I often people say Rideau Centre sucked the life out of Rideau Street too, but when you look at there are very few vacancies on Rideau street....granted some arguments can be made about the quality of some the businesses.


The other thing about development as a whole is that the population of the Glebe has been in decline over the years mostly as rooming houses and apartment houses have returned to individual single family homes. This is certainly a neighbourhood improvement, but it also me the place has de-intensified....all the while the city is trying to intensify the core.

This means the area needs some considerable new higher-density building to counter-act the this decline. That creates the need for the new residential at Lansdowne. At the same time the current business mix in the Glebe seems to be doing reasonably well. Add to that the new residential and you have a need for and room for more commercial.

[lrt's friend]

I agree with everything you say. With the Rideau Centre, some fundamental errors were made with the design that did not interact properly with Rideau Street and neighbouring businesses. This was reflection of 1970s indoor mall design that everything was to be self contained. Not bad for a suburban location surrounded by a massive parking lot but not appropriate for a downtown area especially when the mall was going to be the dominant retailer in the area. Yonge Street survived the Eaton Centre because the Yonge Street retail strip is so massive. Rideau is basically 4 or 5 blocks and once the Rideau Centre moved in, what was not connected directly to the mall suffered badly. Of course, those horrendous shelters killed almost every business along Rideau because they were a magnet for street people and druggies, which quickly drove away customers. City Council made some horrendous decisions at that time and were very slow in correcting their errors.

I think what we are doing at Lansdowne avoids many of the errors that were made with the Rideau Centre.

[umbria27]

Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix

I don't exactly buy that. Introducing new retail at Lansdowne might force some businesses to close shop, but that provides an opportunity for new development and/or new retail opportunities. Bank St. is a main street of Ottawa; it's not going to die.

Hmmm. Not sure that having existing tenants is a big impediment to redevelopment. There are some very good redevelopment opportunities on Bank. The block with the former KFC and Olympic Sports (now Rogers and Kunstadt) springs to mind - chronically underused and underbuilt. If normal rules of supply and demand apply, building 300,000 sq ft down the road makes these types of sites less likely to developed, not more.

Sometimes you need a catalyst development to bring new investment to an underdeveloped area. The Glebe hardly seems to fit that profile. It was already a desirable neighbourhood with a base of high income consumers, but aside from Domicile's "G" there's been precious little in the last 20 years. It makes me think that there are other barriers. Land acquisition costs? Overhead wires making it difficult to cost-justify midrise development?

Frankly, I hope I'm wrong and the consensus in this thread is right - that the new residential will be enough to sustain all the new retail. I also hope that K-133 is right and that the LCBO pursues a saturation policy keeping Clemow open so that Phil and I don't have to walk further for our alcohol!

[AuxTown]

Man, it's such a shame that they are going to take such a vibrant and urban landscape in central Ottawa and turn it into a desolate sea of crumbling asphalt and a condemned stadium. Oh wait, I have that backwards

pic by Southfacing on Flickr

[jemartin]

Lansdowne Park with Lansdowne Park Conservancy and new Frank Clair Stadium by NBBJ (Solar roof on South Stands)

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by umbria27

Hmmm. Not sure that having existing tenants is a big impediment to redevelopment. There are some very good redevelopment opportunities on Bank. The block with the former KFC and Olympic Sports (now Rogers and Kunstadt) springs to mind - chronically underused and underbuilt. If normal rules of supply and demand apply, building 300,000 sq ft down the road makes these types of sites less likely to developed, not more.

Sometimes you need a catalyst development to bring new investment to an underdeveloped area. The Glebe hardly seems to fit that profile. It was already a desirable neighbourhood with a base of high income consumers, but aside from Domicile's "G" there's been precious little in the last 20 years. It makes me think that there are other barriers. Land acquisition costs? Overhead wires making it difficult to cost-justify midrise development?

Frankly, I hope I'm wrong and the consensus in this thread is right - that the new residential will be enough to sustain all the new retail. I also hope that K-133 is right and that the LCBO pursues a saturation policy keeping Clemow open so that Phil and I don't have to walk further for our alcohol!

Surely the Bank St LCBO site would be ripe for redevelopment when the Landsdowne location opens, don't you think?

[McC]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Surely the Bank St LCBO site would be ripe for redevelopment when the Landsdowne location opens, don't you think?

I could see another Shoppers Drug Mart there ;-)

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by McC

I could see another Shoppers Drug Mart there ;-)

Be careful what you wish for.............

[phil235]

Originally Posted by umbria27

Hmmm. Not sure that having existing tenants is a big impediment to redevelopment. There are some very good redevelopment opportunities on Bank. The block with the former KFC and Olympic Sports (now Rogers and Kunstadt) springs to mind - chronically underused and underbuilt. If normal rules of supply and demand apply, building 300,000 sq ft down the road makes these types of sites less likely to developed, not more.

...

Frankly, I hope I'm wrong and the consensus in this thread is right - that the new residential will be enough to sustain all the new retail. I also hope that K-133 is right and that the LCBO pursues a saturation policy keeping Clemow open so that Phil and I don't have to walk further for our alcohol!

We definitely agree on that last point. I'm also in full agreement on the KFC/Kundstadt block. That and the MVP across the street are classic suburban strip mall architecture plunked on a mainstreet in the Glebe (with the footnote that the MVP is a surprisingly good sports bar that I would also hate to loose). I find that they really seem act as a drag on what could be a more dynamic continuous commercial strip. It makes no sense to me that a 3-4 storey mixed use is not a much better economic proposition than what is there now. As you say, there must be some factor holding back development.

[KHOOLE]

Originally Posted by phil235

We definitely agree on that last point. I'm also in full agreement on the KFC/Kundstadt block. That and the MVP across the street are classic suburban strip mall architecture plunked on a mainstreet in the Glebe (with the footnote that the MVP is a surprisingly good sports bar that I would also hate to loose). I find that they really seem act as a drag on what could be a more dynamic continuous commercial strip. It makes no sense to me that a 3-4 storey mixed use is not a much better economic proposition than what is there now. As you say, there must be some factor holding back development.

Not much economic development on Bank Street in the Glebe because it isn’t much of a destination area. Apart from some reasonably good bars and a few restaurants, everything shuts down at night. Essentially the area is more like an island with the Queensway in the North and the Canal and Dow’s Lake in the South and East.

Glebe residents shop locally on foot or drive to Billings Bridge and South Keys and other places like Canadian Tire, Home Depot and Farm Boy on Bank south of Billings Bridge. The parking lots are big and easy to get in and out. Apart from morning and late afternoon rush hours and games and trade shows at Lansdowne, especially on weekends, there no problem going southward on Bank St. from the Glebe.

Minto built the Fifth Avenue Court. Nice Building and fantastic inner court yard. The Arrow and the Loon is a great local watering hole. However, I doubt that it is a very profitable enterprise. Otherwise, there would have been more of the same.

Loblaws has a third world store near the Pretoria Bridge and never bothered expanding or moving. There must be a reason. It may be that it may not be a smart business move to do so.
LCBO may have a bigger and better store at the new LP but it is doubtful that will translate to very much more sales. Being isolated, Bank Street in the Glebe is more like downtown Smith’s Falls or Pembroke.