Whitecaps MLS news

[agrant]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

Fair enough. And I wish MLS all the best.

But in order to increase its chances of finding greater success in North America, my advice to MLS is as follows:

Unlike European soccer (which seems rigid and inflexible even in the face of obvious shortcomings), MLS must be open to change. Specifically, it must be willing to change or adapt certain rules and traditions in a way that will make soccer more exciting and palatable to North American tastes.

For example:

1) It must aggressively act to eliminate the culture of diving, faking and embellishment. To the North American sensibility, such behaviour is deceitful and dishonourable and a real turn off. I know many people who refuse to watch soccer for that reason alone. Although such behaviour occurs sometimes in North American sports, it is always frowned upon and considered very uncool and penalized heavily.

2) Similar to the above, the culture of exaggerating one's pain and suffering must be discouraged. Playing-up one's pain and weakness in order to gain sympathy is contrary to the North American ethos, which celebrates strength, toughness and resiliency. In North American football, after taking a massive hit, a player's instinctive reaction (assuming he is still conscious) is to immediately jump-up and act as if nothing happened, as if to say to his opponent: "Is that all you got? That's pathetic. You hit like my grandmother!" When North Americans see European soccer players rolling around on the ground, crying like babies, playing-up their pain (which is often fake), it completely turns them off. It is considered unmanly and unworthy of respect.

3) MLS must introduce some degree of video review in order to overturn incorrect calls by the referee. Allowing an obvious miscall to go uncorrected (like we saw numerous times in the World Cup this summer) is incompatible with the North American sense of justice. One of the most important things to the North American sporting mind is to get the call right, even when it goes against your own team.

The above are just a few of the cultural shortcomings of European soccer. I also think there are a number of rules that could be changed to cultivate and encourage more exciting play, like, for instance, moving the penalty shot position further back, thereby making such a shot more suspenseful, as opposed to the fait accompli that it is now.

Although many North Americans simply find soccer to be inherently unexciting (e.g. lots of inconsequential running around at midfield, limited scoring opportunities, low scores, etc.), MLS would significantly increase the attractiveness of its product in North American eyes and thus increase its chances of success here, if it were to make just the few changes suggested above.

Adapt to your environment and flourish, or remain intransigent and die: that's the lesson MLS needs to grasp.

1 and 2 kinda go hand in hand. MLS actually doesn't suffer as much from diving as in other leagues in Central and South America. It's really up to the refereeing. But I agree - diving and crying in pain every time you hit the ground is pretty pathetic. This is something you don't see in the English leagues for example.

Number 3 isn't going to turn soccer haters into fans. There wasn't a sudden jump in fan support associated with the video review being implemented in other sports. Video Reviews are a relatively new tool. FIFA is slow to change, but I think eventually they'll make a small move for this to happen.

Your idea for moving the penalty spot back... not going to happen. I thought scoring goals was everything.

"Although many North Americans simply find soccer to be inherently unexciting (e.g. lots of inconsequential running around at midfield, limited scoring opportunities, low scores, etc.),"
<<< It's unexciting to people because they don't know how they're supposed to watch. They're used to lot's of shots and players crashing into each other... With soccer, like in many sports, you have to understand and appreciate what players are doing off the ball... you have to have some understanding of the game, to see plays build. It is the subtleness that many North Americans just don't care to pick up. They want the 'in your face' stuff, like the crashes in NASCAR.

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by agrant

With soccer, like in many sports, you have to understand and appreciate what players are doing off the ball... you have to have some understanding of the game, to see plays build.

But that's one of biggest problems with soccer: plays rarely build. Drives up the field are constantly interrupted because its so easy for passes to be intercepted and players to be stripped of the ball. The nature of soccer is such that it is very difficult for a team to maintain control of the ball for more than a few seconds. So what happens most of the time is that the ball gets kicked back and forth and very few legitimate scoring opportunities ever develop.

Think about it: Hitting a soccer goal is like hitting the broad side of a barn, yet soccer is the lowest scoring sport on the planet. Compare that to a hockey net or a basketball net and the amount of points scored in those sports. Soccer is a sport that has not found the right balance. A sport which can end 0-0 has issues as a form of entertainment.

[agrant]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

But that's one of biggest problems with soccer: plays rarely build. Drives up the field are constantly interrupted because its so easy for passes to be intercepted and players to be stripped of the ball. The nature of soccer is such that it is very difficult for a team to maintain control of the ball for more than a few seconds. So what happens most of the time is that the ball gets kicked back and forth and very few legitimate scoring opportunities ever develop.

Is Hockey any different? Players are constantly building plays. Yes they get intercepted or whatever, but that's called defence. That's sports!

Think about it: Hitting a soccer goal is like hitting the broad side of a barn, yet soccer is the lowest scoring sport on the planet. Compare that to a hockey net or a basketball net and the amount of points scored in those sports. Soccer is a sport that has not found the right balance. A sport which can end 0-0 has issues as a form of entertainment.

"Hitting the broad side of a barn" Uh... try it sometime. And I don't mean standing by yourself, ten feet away. The flip side is basketball is too easy to score... whatever. These are all pointless points. You enjoy the sport that feels right to you.

[jlousa]

I think that the Whitecaps could very well outdraw the Lions in time. I just don't have much faith in the existing MLS, they've done many things right but I just don't like the way the league is set up. Would really of preferred them to have just copied the tried and true European system with divisions, and clubs being able to sign players instead of the league signings and draft system. Hopefully the league can evolve and we don't see it folding withing a decade.
I do like what the Whitecaps themselves are doing though with the type of players they are going after, substance over flash. Might not be as exciting as other teams but they'll be more successful.

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by agrant

Is Hockey any different?

Yes. Due to factors unique to hockey (e.g. boards which keep the puck in play, smaller playing surface, faster passing, etc.), teams are better able to control the puck and generate more scoring opportunities. This fact is reflected by the vastly greater number of shots on net and goals in hockey, despite its having a goal 1/10th the size of a soccer goal. Hockey achieves a better balance.

These are all pointless points.

Yes, they are pointless to me, who doesn't really have a vested emotional stake in soccer's success in North America. But they shouldn't be to you, who seems to care about whether soccer succeeds here. Because it is precisely these points which limit soccer's appeal as a form of entertainment to a critical number of North Americans, and until these points are addressed it is unlikely that professional soccer will ever thrive here in a way that will really please you.

It is this unreflective attitude which harms soccer's chances of success on this continent. Contrast this attitude to the NHL, NFL and CFL, which all have special committees that constantly review their rules and annually propose changes where changes will improve the game. For instance, the NHL eliminated the two-line pass rule and introduced 4 on 4 overtimes and shootouts; the NFL eliminated sudden death in overtime for playoff games; the CFL introduced mandatory 2-point conversions in overtime. All three games are now more exciting as a result.

MLS would do well to adopt this more thoughtful, self-critical approach.

[agrant]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

Yes. Due to factors unique to hockey (e.g. boards which keep the puck in play, smaller playing surface, faster passing, etc.), teams are better able to control the puck and generate more scoring opportunities. This fact is reflected by the vastly greater number of shots on net and goals in hockey, despite its having a goal 1/10th the size of a soccer goal. Hockey achieves a better balance.



Yes, they are pointless to me, who doesn't really have a vested emotional stake in soccer's success in North America. But they shouldn't be to you, who seems to care about whether soccer succeeds here. Because it is precisely these points which limit soccer's appeal as a form of entertainment to a critical number of North Americans, and until they are addressed it is unlikely that professional soccer will ever thrive here in a way that will really please you.

It is this unreflective attitude which harms soccer's chances of success on this continent. Contrast this attitude to hockey and football, which both have special committees that constantly review the rules and annually propose changes where changes will improve the game. For instance, the NHL eliminated the two-line pass rule and introduced 4 on 4 overtimes and shootouts; the CFL introduced mandatory 2-point conversions in overtime. Both games are now more exciting as a result.

MLS would do well to adopt this more thoughtful, self-critical approach.

I've already made my points. Obviously they aren't being read. I understand what you're saying. I get it. Let's move on.

[agrant]

Originally Posted by jlousa

I think that the Whitecaps could very well outdraw the Lions in time. I just don't have much faith in the existing MLS, they've done many things right but I just don't like the way the league is set up. Would really of preferred them to have just copied the tried and true European system with divisions, and clubs being able to sign players instead of the league signings and draft system. Hopefully the league can evolve and we don't see it folding withing a decade.
I do like what the Whitecaps themselves are doing though with the type of players they are going after, substance over flash. Might not be as exciting as other teams but they'll be more successful.

If you're talking about a relegation and promotion system, I'd love that. But I can't see it happen. The fact the Whitecaps have a farm system, and develope some of their own players... this may have an impact on how other MLS clubs develope their teams. I like the idea of seeing players developed within the clubs farm system, who've lived in the area, playing for the top team.

[Overground]

for instance, moving the penalty shot position further back, thereby making such a shot more suspenseful, as opposed to the fait accompli that it is now.

MLS adheres to the rules of the International Football Association Board (IFAB). This is how the game is played all over the world. MLS sampled rule changes in the 90s and it wasn't successful thank god. What's next, blue or red streaks behind the ball on shots? To change the rules to appease people who don't "get it" would only alienate the people who do get it. I'd rather have no league at all then a change of tradition and code that has been around since the 1800s.

Our sport doesn't need to change to please some North Americans who don't get a very exciting sport enjoyed by billions around the world. Possessing the ball, free kicks, tackles, headers, corners, long balls, passing, and breakaways are all exciting and strategic parts of the game. I think people who don't follow the sport need to think outside the box a bit and look at other aspects of the game besides the instant pleasure goals going in. Think about it, we've heard from NFL fans over the years saying soccer is boring when they're watching a sport that has an average of ONLY 12 minutes of actual playing time over an entire game.

[Nutterbug]

Originally Posted by Overground

MLS adheres to the rules of the International Football Association Board (IFAB). This is how the game is played all over the world. MLS sampled rule changes in the 90s and it wasn't successful thank god. What's next, blue or red streaks behind the ball on shots? To change the rules to appease people who don't "get it" would only alienate the people who do get it. I'd rather have no league at all then a change of tradition and code that has been around since the 1800s.

Our sport doesn't need to change to please some North Americans who don't get a very exciting sport enjoyed by billions around the world. Possessing the ball, free kicks, tackles, headers, corners, long balls, passing, and breakaways are all exciting and strategic parts of the game. I think people who don't follow the sport need to think outside the box a bit and look at other aspects of the game besides the instant pleasure goals going in. Think about it, we've heard from NFL fans over the years saying soccer is boring when they're watching a sport that has an average of ONLY 12 minutes of actual playing time over an entire game.

I don't see how it would be considered a bad thing to experiment, and modify it to suit the country's tastes, not just here, but in every other country around the world. Maybe good ideas will even be adopted by other countries, instead of forcing homogeneity and stifling its evolution. That's how Canadian and American football eventually evolved and branched apart from rugby.

There are too many stubborn purists who don't change with the times. That's why the game won't adopt a scoreboard clock, which would keep more accurate time and get the extra burden of responsibility off the referee, nor video surveillance for more accurate officiating and player accountability (re. dives, embellishment, etc.). If the purists had their way, the Whitecaps would adopt a bland and boring name, or lack thereof (eg. Toronto FC, Real Salt Lake, DC United), abandoning one that has character and a rich history in this city to appease a bunch of wannabes who want to emulate the Europeans in every which way possible.

[agrant]

Originally Posted by Nutterbug

I don't see how it would be considered a bad thing to experiment, and modify it to suit the country's tastes, not just here, but in every other country around the world. Maybe good ideas will even be adopted by other countries, instead of forcing homogeneity and stifling its evolution. That's how Canadian and American football eventually evolved and branched apart from rugby.

So what you're saying is that we need another sport, separate from soccer. Well, there is that arena (indoor) soccer available in some cities. Making drastic changes to the game just makes it look hokey. Back in the day, the NASL had this stupid breakaway shootout thing at the end of tied games.... didn't sit well with a lot of people. What the hell is wrong with a tied game anyway?

Originally Posted by Nutterbug

There are too many stubborn purists who don't change with the times. That's why the game won't adopt a scoreboard clock, which would keep more accurate time and get the extra burden of responsibility off the referee, nor video surveillance for more accurate officiating and player accountability (re. dives, embellishment, etc.). If the purists had their way, the Whitecaps would adopt a bland and boring name, or lack thereof (eg. Toronto FC, Real Salt Lake, DC United), abandoning one that has character and a rich history in this city to appease a bunch of wannabes who want to emulate the Europeans in every which way possible.

So if you're just talking about adding a scoreboard clock and video review... this is going to change the attitude of the non-soccer fan? These two things very well might happen down the road, but it'll happen most likely for every country.

[cc85]

please, just stop talking about this. you're boring. I want to read information about the progress of the club's activities or the stadium, none of this endless banter.

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by Overground

I'd rather have no league at all then [sic] a change of tradition and code that has been around since the 1800s.

You just might get your wish.

For the sake of diversity in major league sports, I hope you don't, but nature teaches us that those who remain incapable (or unwilling) to evolve and adapt to their environment often wither away and die.

[Vancity]

Originally Posted by cc85

please, just stop talking about this. you're boring. I want to read information about the progress of the club's activities or the stadium, none of this endless banter.

Agreed. Anyways, Expansion draft starting in approximately 2 hours' time. Anyone think the 'Caps will pick Guzman from Toronto FC?

I'm really curious as to who they're going to select. younger players with a lot of potential, or more veterans who've been around a long time? Probably a mix. But I don't want those 35 plus year old players, whose time is running out. I'd rather have the younger players, with a few early 30's, guiding, and leading the inexperienced players.

[twoNeurons]

Only "slightly" off-topic but, Baseball is a pretty boring sport if you only follow it casually. Yet, it has a large following in the US.

Someone once told me that to really enjoy Baseball you have enjoy strategy and looking at statistics as much of the game's interest is in things like RBIs, hitting averages and other numerical information.

And don't get me started about other sports like Golf.

[Overground]

Here is our picks in the expansion draft -

Sanna Nyassi (Seattle Sounders FC) - 21 midfielder from Gambia

Atiba Harris (FC Dallas) - 25 midfielder St Kitts

Nathan Sturgis (Seattle Sounders FC) - 23 defender USA

Shea Salinas (Philadelphia Union) - 24 midfielder USA

Alan Gordon (Chivas) - 29 striker USA

O'Brian White (Toronto FC) - 24 striker Jamaica

Alejandro Moreno (Philadelphia Union) - 31 striker Venezuela

Joe Cannon (San Jose) - 35 keeper USA

Jonathan Leathers (Sporting KC) - 25 defender USA

John Thorrington (Chicago Fire) - 31 midfielder South Africa


One of guys on MLS radio are saying Vancouver got less of a deal compared to Portland while the other is saying we got the more skilful picks. The big question with Portland seems to be their pick of Robbie Findley and if he will actually even play or go to Europe. They also said that we picked all these strikers but they don't score goals.

[djmk]

Originally Posted by Overground

Here is our picks in the expansion draft -



Alan Gordon (Chivas) - 29 striker USA

O'Brian White (Toronto FC) - 24 striker Jamaica

Alejandro Moreno (Philadelphia Union) - 31 striker Venezuela

They also said that we picked all these strikers but they don't score goals.

between the 3 strikers, 5 goals amongst them in 2010.

wow. deadly crew.

[golog]

The Whitecaps are apparently taking seriously the need to develop their own talent. If they do that, I don't mind waiting around for some success. Trying to leapfrog ahead is what stunted the growth of pro soccer in North America last time.

The one deal killer is if the MLS gets fixed like FIFA matches, and for that reason I hope they bring in video replay for coach's challenges, penalties and goals. A scoreboard clock would be a nice way to join this century as well.

[agrant]

Originally Posted by djmk

between the 3 strikers, 5 goals amongst them in 2010.

wow. deadly crew.

I wonder how many games they each played, if they were starters.

[Yume-sama]

What's this expansion draft deal? Is it the Whitecaps getting in to the MLS? If they weren't in the MLS... what league were they in?

[agrant]

Originally Posted by Yume-sama

What's this expansion draft deal? Is it the Whitecaps getting in to the MLS? If they weren't in the MLS... what league were they in?

Yes - the caps are joining MLS. Can be a little bit confusing... The Whitecaps were part of USL First Division up till 2009, then in 2010 I think they became part of the USSF, which the USL and NASL became part of. They were considered Div2, MLS Div1. The roster you'll see in the coming season will look very different than the one that finished playing last summer.