Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[Millennium2002]

True. Wards would probably wreak more havoc. But anyway... hmm... it's really hard to get the politics out of transit these days... because they're so intertwined. =O

[red-paladin]

Originally Posted by jlousa

Seeing mayors defend their own cities over the regions best interests is exactly why I love Vancouver's at large system and would hate to see a ward system implemented. It will boil down to each person looking after their own interests, and forming alliances to screw over unpopular wards.

I agree.
Our current Metro Vancouver region with lots of municipalities is just as bad as one giant Metro Vancouver City with big wards. If Vancouver or Burnaby went to wards there would be one more level of infighting, with parts of Vancouver trying to screw other parts out of skytrain lines.

[invisibleairwaves]

Wait, so Translink has to try to get property taxes raised to pay for the Highway 1 rapid bus? Wasn't that supposed to be one of the major selling points of the Gateway program?

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by invisibleairwaves

Wait, so Translink has to try to get property taxes raised to pay for the Highway 1 rapid bus? Wasn't that supposed to be one of the major selling points of the Gateway program?

Gateway and the new Port Mann Bridge are building the road space for rapid bus to run on;
Translink has to build up their fleet & staff (ie: new drivers) to put rapid bus on that road space.

[CLC]

The current issue of "Mass Transit" cover story is about Translink's new CEO, worth a read:
http://www.masstransitmag.com/publication/index.jsp?pubId=1

[en2]

Does anyone have the CD full of data with regards to the UBC line?

I remember viewing the documents from the TransLink website but it seems like after the website was re-designed, all the documents from "closed bids" were taken down.

I asked fellow user jlousa (original post, see original post below) but he doesn't seem to have it anymore since it was from Dec. 2008. He said that he sent the data to some of the users on this forum.

I am currently studying transportation in graduate school and some of the information and data could be useful for me.

If anyone still has the data, please send me a PM. Thanks.

I just received a CD full of data on the UBC line. I can't post it because it's hundred of mbs in size. I'll probably need a couple of days to go thru it and I'll post the highlights.

Okay I'm only skimming the pages as there are thousands. Looks like the Evergreen is a done deal and will start very shortly, the UBC Surrey and Expo line expansion will all happen at the same time, the decision on the UBC method will be done Feb 2010, (I'm sure nothing to do with the Olympics) The Surrey study will finish just before that but won't start work until after work has started on the UBC line, The Expo line expansion seems to start before everyone. The terminus at UBC is expected to be in the University Boulevard neighbourhood. They are not set on which technology to use, LRT is still on the table but it appears they are favoring Skytrain due to integration. No path is set yet but the study area only covers 500m from Broadway st in each direction (no surprises there). What is interesting is that they expect the UBC line to take into affect the COVs streetcar line which includes Phase 1-3 plus a streetcar along Arbutus and another loop that heads to the False Creek Flats.

Here's a following paragraph that I just cut and pasted from one of the documents.

"SkyTrain currently operates with a mix of 150 Mark I cars and 60 larger Mark II
cars. By the end of 2010, the Mark II fleet will number 108 cars, and possibly 132
cars. Additional fleet will be required to support the Evergreen Line in 2014 and to
accommodate future system expansion and ridership growth. To reach the
maximum capacity of the line, a 3-car Mark II unit will also need to be developed to
allow 5-car trains, the maximum that can be accommodated with existing platforms.
The Mark I cars will likely need to be retired 2020-2025."

(Cars)Capacity
4-Mark-I 144 (Seat only) 300 (Seat & Stand)
6-Mark-I 216 (Seat only) 450 (Seat & Stand)
2-Mark-II 84 (Seat only) 238 (Seat & Stand)
3-Mark-II 126 (Seat only) 357 (Seat & Stand)
4-Mark-II 168 (Seat only) 476 (Seat & Stand)
5-Mark-II 210 (Seat only) 595 (Seat & Stand)
6-Mark-II 252 (Seat only) 714 (Seat & Stand)

In principle, the SkyTrain system, with its 80 metre platforms, could accommodate a 5-car Mark II train,
made up of existing 2-car units (34.2 m.) coupled with yet-to-be-designed 3-car units (50.9 m.,
incorporating a 16.7 m. centre car). While the resulting 85.1 metre train would overhand the platforms,
the doors would fit within 78 metres, leaving a small, but potentially manageable margin of 1 metre at
each end. Assuming a comparable 130 passengers in the centre section of the 3-car triplet, a 5-car train
could carry 650 passengers under the currently applied loading standards

Peak capacity
Regardless of the length of the SkyTrain line, or the distribution of capacity between various segments, peak capacity in the
peak link will be governed by achieveable headway, and the length and type of train. The accompanying table shows the
headways required to achieve a range of capacities, with different fleet types, based on current loading standards.
Thus, 25,000 passengers per hour would be unachievable with an all-Mark I fleet (in any event, SkyTrain does not have
enough Mark I cars to achieve the higher range), but is within range of a 4-car Mark II fleet, albeit under exceptional
operating demands. (A mixed Mark I and Mark II fleet would be proportionately in between.)
The 5-car Mark II option (subject to technical practicability) should be able to reach 25,000 with some margin, and potentially achieve a rate of 30,000 per hour, perhaps for short duration. (This is calculated with 78sec headways note 72sec headways are possible)


There is just way too much info for me to go thru it all, if someone has the time I can burn them a cd, just pm me. There is some really good info such as separated operating costs for each translink division. All future ridership estimates, and countless other stuff.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

I agree.
Our current Metro Vancouver region with lots of municipalities is just as bad as one giant Metro Vancouver City with big wards. If Vancouver or Burnaby went to wards there would be one more level of infighting, with parts of Vancouver trying to screw other parts out of skytrain lines.

That is unless you introduce party politics. The province is basically divided into wards, but the the provincial government gets stuff done, because the wards are under a unified leadership. If there were enough wards in the metro region, then the wards that want things (be it roads, new sewers, or transit) would outnumber the wards that have all they want. If wards were a bit larger, you could do preferential voting inside the ward and have 2 or 3 representatives.

You would also have parties across cities. During the entire governance you have to appease all voters. In the next election, you want to win the wards you lost, so you still do things for those wards. You have to build a reputation and credit for your party. You have to accomplish what you said you would do.

However, the current problem is that Tranlink is so disconnected from everything else the cities do. So being an asshole mayor and voting down Skytrain expansion because you have all the Skytrain you need in your city limits doesn't hurt you in anyway. It only makes you look strong and badass and concerned about your constituents. If Translink was part of a Metro government, then voting down transit expansion might mean the other cities team up against you and vote down your new sewer lines. "What? your main road is full of potholes? Well we don't have any transit, so we're even."

[Xerx]

Surrey will vote against TransLink tax hike
Surrey Mayor Dianne Watts will vote against authorizing a TransLink property tax hike to fund the Evergreen Line.

rest of article here http://www.bclocalnews.com/greater_vancouver/newwestminsternewsleader/news/107581293.html
Jeff Nagel, New West Newsleader

What does everyone think? Will the evergreen line be postponed again? I would hate to see us lose that federal funding.

[Gordon]

Does Mayor Watts have any ideas on how to get the money. part of being in politics is having to make tough unpalatable decisions and this is one of them.

Maybe it's time that the mayors seriously considered a Vehicle Levy($60) which would allow option B to be brought in. the sit down with Victoria & replace it with a schene like road pricing.

How serious is Victoria in having Translink fully funded & operating properly?

[GeeCee]

Translink has said that a vehicle levy isn't an option right now due to the length of time it would take to implement it since there is not currently a mechanism to collect a levy, and any such mechanism would require a new law be passed.

[SpikePhanta]

Regarding retail in transit stations it seems some aren't making money.
I have never seen the coffee store in Granville open, but I can see some items from the window on the side.
Also the International news is the hudson dunsmuir st. seems like it is closing.
Starbucks doesn't make money but the Tim hortans and Liquor store seem to be busy.

[invisibleairwaves]

Originally Posted by SpikePhanta

Regarding retail in transit stations it seems some aren't making money.
I have never seen the coffee store in Granville open, but I can see some items from the window on the side.
Also the International news is the hudson dunsmuir st. seems like it is closing.
Starbucks doesn't make money but the Tim hortans and Liquor store seem to be busy.

That's too bad. Doesn't bode well for all the Jugo Juice franchises along the Canada Line.

On a related note, I was in Gilmore Station on Wednesday and it looked like they'd been working on the retail space in the station. Are they really opening something in there? I'd be surprised if they are, it's one of the least-used stations in the system and there's already retail on the other side of Dawson. I've never actually been through most of the Millennium Line stations...do they all have the little retail space inside the station? How many of them are actually open? Braid and Commercial are the only ones I know of that actually have anything in there.

[GeeCee]

The Metro Vancouver mayors need to get their heads out of their assholes. Approve the property tax increase so the Evergreen Line can finally start construction. Increasing property taxes is no more onerous than a vehicle levy - if anything, property taxes don't hit those with lower incomes as hard (since they probably don't own their own homes). This political BS to make themselves look good by keeping their annual cheques lower helps nobody. Diane Watts, Derek Corrigan, the North Shore mayors and anyone else who votes against this should be ashamed, and so should their constituencies.

[Nouvellecosse]

^ I'm not sure about BC, but in many places there is a higher property tax rate for apartment buildings than private houses making renters pay even more than home owners due to trickle-down rent increases.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by SpikePhanta

Regarding retail in transit stations it seems some aren't making money.
I have never seen the coffee store in Granville open, but I can see some items from the window on the side.
Also the International news is the hudson dunsmuir st. seems like it is closing.
Starbucks doesn't make money but the Tim hortans and Liquor store seem to be busy.

It may be that Tims and the St. Regis Liquor store aren't technically part of the SkyTrain Granville station, but instead are in the mini-mall under The Hudson (between The Bay and the Granville SkyTrain Station mezzanine). They are likely leasing from The Hudson, who determines the open/close hours of their mini-mall. The other stores at the top of the triple escalator in the mezzanine are likely leasing from Translink. Or perhaps Translink has a long-term lease from The Hudson for their mezzanine & escalator space, and is sub-leasing to Starbucks and the magazine shop.

A few times I've been there way too friggin early in the AM & only the station itself was open, not the Hudson mini-mall connecting to The Bay. However, Tims was smart enough to have a door connecting directly to the Station Mezzanine so they could be open even when the Hudson mall wasn't.

Is this the only Skytrain station entrance with two different coffee shops?


The Tims in Vancouver Centre has a similar connection to the Canada Line VCC station so when the Vancouver Centre mall is closed, that Tims can still have its own connection to the C-Line Skytrain station when its open.

[squeezied]

"There's many options [other than property tax increase]" she [Mayor Diane Watts] said. "We need to look at road pricing. We need to look at fair tolling. We need to look at carbon tax..."

All of which will mean Surrey pays an even larger share. Is she a lunatic? Considering Surrey residents have more cars per capita and drive further and longer, Surrey residents will pay an even larger disproportionate share for transit funding than compared to property taxes.

Am I missing something?

[golog]

Originally Posted by squeezied

All of which will mean Surrey pays an even larger share. Is she a lunatic? Considering Surrey residents have more cars per capita and drive further and longer, Surrey residents will pay an even larger disproportionate share for transit funding than compared to property taxes.

Am I missing something?

I would substitute "closer to a fair share for road, bridge, and transit funding" instead of disproportionate; although disproportionately more than the alternative would work

I think those remarks were simple political tactics. Divide your opponents, no matter how nonsensical your resulting position is. Deal in vagueness as long as possible in order to be everyone's champion.

It's like promoting the City Center project as the brand of Surrey, while expediting new subdivisions while in office so that your current cash flows are strong. When density is increased, don't bother with locating it in organically grown centres like Cloverdale, approve it for the first developer that bought land for cheap in Tynehead. Be everyone's friend while in office, and down the road let the problems of dysfunctional transportation and poor finances become someone else's problem. Sometimes there's an underlying promise of "we'll skip two steps ahead and it will all work out", but that generally never happens and that is why I'll argue for taking everything one step at a time. It may be one step, but if every step continues in the right direction everything will take care of itself

[jlousa]

I am not against the property tax increase, but I think the argument against it is very valid and can understand why there is opposition.
M. Gellar has pointed out that condo dwellers in high density urban centres have high property assessments due to their desirable location, they are also most likely to walk/bike to work due to their location, yet they would be paying the most in the transit property tax proposal due to their assessments, while a home in a less then ideal location would be paying less due to it's assessment while costing Translink significantly more to service.
Perhaps a flat fee would fix that, but then it would be seen as a tax break on the rich. Ideally we will need multiple streams to tailor a solution that isn't unfair to as many people.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by invisibleairwaves

That's too bad. Doesn't bode well for all the Jugo Juice franchises along the Canada Line.

On a related note, I was in Gilmore Station on Wednesday and it looked like they'd been working on the retail space in the station. Are they really opening something in there? I'd be surprised if they are, it's one of the least-used stations in the system and there's already retail on the other side of Dawson. I've never actually been through most of the Millennium Line stations...do they all have the little retail space inside the station? How many of them are actually open? Braid and Commercial are the only ones I know of that actually have anything in there.

I was at the OV Canada Line station about 4:30 and the Jugo Juice wasn't even open. Has it closed down for good?

[Whalleyboy]

Originally Posted by jlousa

I am not against the property tax increase, but I think the argument against it is very valid and can understand why there is opposition.
M. Gellar has pointed out that condo dwellers in high density urban centres have high property assessments due to their desirable location, they are also most likely to walk/bike to work due to their location, yet they would be paying the most in the transit property tax proposal due to their assessments, while a home in a less then ideal location would be paying less due to it's assessment while costing Translink significantly more to service.
Perhaps a flat fee would fix that, but then it would be seen as a tax break on the rich. Ideally we will need multiple streams to tailor a solution that isn't unfair to as many people.

I agree with you on not being against the property tax, but at the same time understand the fight against it.
But I see it as fair since place which are likely to have a higher property price like those living in condo's and stuff already live near good transit. They would be the one helping fun to get transit out to those places that don't have transit.