[Halifax] Nova Centre | 65-58-58 m | 16-15-14 fl | Completed

[Empire]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

I rather like the fact that the finance staff have been clear in their presentation that it's easier to quantify losses and negative effects to the city than it would be the economic spin offs.

I think the Councillor Sloane's comment about the centre being eco-friendly is a reasonable as well. I was unaware that this was going to be lead gold; I suspect I missed that - I know here in Calgary, any City projects must achieve at least lead gold if not platinum. I know Alderman Druh Farrell pushes that at planning commission all the time.

For me; I can see the potential economic impacts and spin off's easily, versus the negatives. Obviously the spin offs would be greater occupancy and demand for hotels during convention season (negative would be more empty rooms in the low season), more demand for hotels in general, if more corporate offices (new businesses move here) the jobs and need for more office space, tourism, downtown business benefits (restaurants, stores, etc.) and certainly potential increased tourism (visitors, transportation (rail, car and flights)).

The negatives i can see would be the centre is a complete flop needing tax dollars to fund operations or be bought out. The office space issue has been brought up as well; could create such a huge vacancy rate that there would be no further need for years.

I guess for me - I'm willing to accept staff's recommendation and efforts to lower the risk and I'd go for it. You can't make money without spending money.

There has been negative growth in downtown in the past twenty years so it is puzzling to listen to Watts oppose an opportunity to reverse that trend.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Empire

There has been negative growth in downtown in the past twenty years so it is puzzling to listen to Watts oppose an opportunity to reverse that trend.

My impression of Watts is that she is a terrible form of BANANA councillor who just has a problem with development in general unless it strictly adheres to a narrow social agenda.

It is sad how in Halifax good goals like sustainable transportation and affordable housing get mixed in with incompatible anti-development hysteria. Many people do not appreciate the big picture. This kind of thing happens way too much in politics in general, where people who share some similarities band together and create a bizarre tribalist political culture that is not even self-consistent, let alone helpful as a way to govern.

[halifaxboyns]

As much as I keep wanting to ignore the skeptical HRM side of me; I'm still slightly concerned that this may be the biblical solution to downtown - I don't see it that way, merely a good start. It's like Ramia said; it's been what - 20 years since anything got built in downtown? To me, if this project gets built and it does kick start any construction - that's a win. I'm guessing or suspecting that if anything - the construction that might get started would be more residential or hotel.

Frankly, if Twisted Sisters can't be built as office and hotel space - I'd love to see it become a hotel and condo building. For me, the block below it (on Lower Water Street) would be a great spot to take down those older office buildings and replace them with residential (but that's just me).

I'm shocked that Captain negative's presentation was poorly attended (note sarcasm). Like you said; attendance is down. I hope they took a huge dive on that, because bringing people like him is not cheap. I'm on the Calgary events committee for the Provincial Planning Association (APPI) and we are trying to get Avi Freedman to come in for a couple days. The cost is incredible, but fortunately budgets aren't as tight anymore!

[CorbeauNoir]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

The negatives i can see would be the centre is a complete flop needing tax dollars to fund operations or be bought out. The office space issue has been brought up as well; could create such a huge vacancy rate that there would be no further need for years.

I'd feel a little bit better about the project if one of those towers were residential or something. Downtown seems like it's in more need of higher density than extra hotels or office space.

[fenwick16]

Based on the allnovascotia.com, the HRM council voted in favour at 11:15 PM to proceed with the next step of negotiating a better deal with the province. Good for allnovascotia.com - they got the vote into the story with only minutes remaining prior to the on-line publishing deadline. Thumbs up to the HRM council for showing optimism in the future of the Halifax area.

Question - will another vote be required once a better deal is negoiated?

[someone123]

I agree that the main problem downtown is a lack of street-level activity. This would mostly be helped by having more residents.

The United Gulf towers were to have 200+ condo units but I am not optimistic about them being built. Not sure why residential projects in the old core have been nonexistent when they've been so popular all around it, even in the North End.

[fenwick16]

I missed the number, but I thought that it was stated that there would be 50 - 100 residential units in the Nova Centre. Possibly more if an insufficient amount of office space is sold since any surplus will be converted to residential.

[CorbeauNoir]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I missed the number, but I thought that it was stated that there would be 50 - 100 residential units in the Nova Centre. Possibly more if an insufficient amount of office space is sold since any surplus will be converted to residential.

Great to hear if true. Makes sense to have the CC offices at the site but beyond that the space definitely seems much better served as housing.

[fenwick16]

There will still be office, hotel, retail and the CC, but in addition according to Joe Ramia there will be residential - he stated this at the meeting last night when I watched on Haligonia.ca. It was good to hear since the downtown core certainly needs more residential. I would expect that area to be a popular residential area since it is so close to Spring Garden Road. I am not sure if it will be condo or rental apartments.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Empire

There has been negative growth in downtown in the past twenty years so it is puzzling to listen to Watts oppose an opportunity to reverse that trend.

Nothing is puzzling about her opposition. She is staunchly anti-development and is a total wingnut. Why the people of her district continue to elect the likes of her and her mentor, Kommissar Epstein, baffles me.

Originally Posted by someone123

My impression of Watts is that she is a terrible form of BANANA councillor who just has a problem with development in general unless it strictly adheres to a narrow social agenda.

Watts have proven herself to be a clone, or perhaps more accurately, a puppet, of Howard Epstein and supports every HT position put forward to date. She is on the wrong side of just about every big issue, while championing such ridiculous items as urban chickens and bans on bottled water.

I understand the vote had only 2 councillors opposed. I presume that one was Watts. Any idea who the other was? Harvey perhaps?

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

I'm shocked that Captain negative's presentation was poorly attended (note sarcasm). Like you said; attendance is down. I hope they took a huge dive on that, because bringing people like him is not cheap.

I find it shocking that they put him on an airplane and contributed to greenhouse gases by flying him here. Why didn't they hook him to a videoconference setup from Texas, since that is what they were claiming was going to make a convention center like this obsolete? Could it be that their claim of that, like everything else they have put forward, was false?

[Northend Guy]

Here is the article from the herald on the city's decision:

HRM council backs convention centre
City hopes to deal down from $56-million contribution
By LAURA FRASER Staff Reporter
Wed, Nov 10 - 7:10 AM
Halifax regional councillors have put their support behind the $159-million convention centre proposed for downtown, declaring they will begin negotiations with the province immediately.

The announcement came at 11:30 p.m. Tuesday after more than 13 hours of presentations and a closed-door session.

Although the province asked that the municipality match its contribution of $56 million, discussion around the council table Tuesday suggested the request is just a starting point.

Council has "got good arguments to negotiate a better deal," the municipality’s manager for tax and fiscal policy said during a marathon meeting of committee of the whole.

Bruce Fisher said the province needs to take the lead on the project, which he predicted would revitalize the downtown core and add to property tax revenues.

The negotiating points between the city and the province will likely include the Dexter government’s request to be exempt from paying property taxes on the convention centre.

"We don’t have anybody tax-free in the HRM," Coun. Gloria McCluskey (Dartmouth Centre) said during council’s discussions.

Council met Tuesday expecting to hear a presentation from staff about the risks and benefits associated with entering into negotiations with the province over the proposed business complex. Instead, most of the day was spent hearing from various stakeholders and experts, including developer Joe Ramia of Rank Inc., urban policy professor Heywood Sanders of Texas, and Trade Centre Ltd., the provincial Crown corporation that will manage the new building.

Council’s decision likely came as a relief to Ramia, who said earlier in the day that the fate of the rest of his $500-million vision of a financial tower and hotel complex rested on the convention centre coming to fruition.

He said he has four Fortune 500 companies interested in leasing space in the financial centre.

Sanders, an academic brought to Halifax by opponents of the convention centre project, warned that convention business has been declining since 2000.

Ramia said he hopes to have the contract finalized by January, with the possibility of excavation beginning by March.

What will happen with the current World Trade and Convention Centre remains unclear. The province has asked the municipality to take it over, but staff said Tuesday that negotiations are not contingent on that happening.

Coun. Dawn Sloane (Halifax Downtown) suggested the space be turned into an arts and cultural centre. Municipal staff will look at that possibility and other alternatives before reporting to council.

( [email protected])

[PoscStudent]

^ The two easier governments to get on board have come forward but the feeral government is still needed and that's the cash that will be the hardest to get.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by PoscStudent

^ The two easier governments to get on board have come forward but the feeral government is still needed and that's the cash that will be the hardest to get.

I would have to disagree with this. If you check you will see that the federal government almost always supports conventions centres since they consider it to be an economic generator. This holds true right across Canada regardless of the provincial government in power (I checked this previously and made up a list). The only question is whether or not the federal government will support a leasing arrangement - if not, then the HRM and province would have to finance it differently.

Here is one such plan that specifically mentions convention centres: (source: http://www.buildingcanada-chantierscanada.gc.ca/plandocs/bg-di/bg-di-fs-fr-eng.html )

Building Canada: Stronger, Safer, Better

The Government of Canada unveiled the details of its historic $33-billion infrastructure plan. Called “Building Canada”, this infrastructure plan is building a stronger, safer and better Canada, providing more funding, over a longer period of time, from 2007 to 2014, than any previous federal infrastructure initiative.

Categories eligible for funding

Building Canada will help support a stronger Canadian economy by investing in infrastructure that contributes to increased trade, efficient movement of goods and people, and economic growth. This will include projects such as improvements to the core National Highway System, short-line railways, short-sea shipping, regional and local airports, broadband, and convention centres.

[q12]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Nothing is puzzling about her opposition. She is staunchly anti-development and is a total wingnut. Why the people of her district continue to elect the likes of her and her mentor, Kommissar Epstein, baffles me.

Watts have proven herself to be a clone, or perhaps more accurately, a puppet, of Howard Epstein and supports every HT position put forward to date. She is on the wrong side of just about every big issue, while championing such ridiculous items as urban chickens and bans on bottled water.

I understand the vote had only 2 councillors opposed. I presume that one was Watts. Any idea who the other was? Harvey perhaps?

On News 95.7 Maritime Morning, Jordi Morgon had Sue Uteck and Tim Outhit on and Sue said it was Jennifer Watts and Jackie Barkhouse who voted against it.

After watching some of the questions Watts and Barkhouse asked last night during the session, I'd say they are not only Anti-Development but also just incompetent Councillors in general.

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

I find it shocking that they put him on an airplane and contributed to greenhouse gases by flying him here. Why didn't they hook him to a videoconference setup from Texas, since that is what they were claiming was going to make a convention center like this obsolete? Could it be that their claim of that, like everything else they have put forward, was false?

Roger Taylor made the exact same tongue-in-cheek point in his column this morning:

The fact that University of Texas-San Antonio Prof. Heywood Sanders, predictor of doom for the convention sector, came to Halifax to support the case of those who oppose the complex seems to say something.

He could have presented his views by video link, bypassing the need to appear in person, but hearing and seeing someone in the flesh is still a more effective way of communicating complicated arguments.

Sanders’ personal appearance in Halifax seems to add to the argument that holding conventions, where many delegates gather to exchange ideas, still has merit.

Nice to see them being called out on this stuff so strongly, given that HT and STV have largely had a free pass in recent years with few people publically at least calling their bluff.

[Dmajackson]

Originally Posted by q12

On News 95.7 Maritime Morning, Jordi Morgon had Sue Uteck and Tim Outhit on and Sue said it was Jennifer Watts and Jackie Barkhouse who voted against it.

After watching some of the questions Watts and Barkhouse asked last night during the session, I'd say they are not only Anti-Development but also just incompetent Councillors in general.

You just answered the question I was about to ask.

Watts being against it is not surprising at all. She is good for the green movement and issues related to active transportation but development wise she is very backwards.

To be honest I was thinking the other nay-sayer was Barkhouse simply because she's so quiet, Blumenthal (anti-development), or Fisher because he's new.

[halifaxboyns]

It was Watts and Barkhouse.
I'm not surprised about Watts but Barkhouse being so quiet; you can never know what she's up too.
I suspect she may not have been in support of business case and voted no because she wanted a better deal? I'm guessing here.

This is good though; administration knows that they need to go back and get a better deal.

[PoscStudent]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I would have to disagree with this. If you check you will see that the federal government almost always supports conventions centres since they consider it to be an economic generator. This holds true right across Canada regardless of the provincial government in power (I checked this previously and made up a list). The only question is whether or not the federal government will support a leasing arrangement - if not, then the HRM and province would have to finance it differently.

Here is one such plan that specifically mentions convention centres: (source: http://www.buildingcanada-chantierscanada.gc.ca/plandocs/bg-di/bg-di-fs-fr-eng.html )

We have a $56 billion deficit now though and are waiting to recieve probably the toughest budget in Canadian history.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by PoscStudent

We have a $56 billion deficit now though and are waiting to recieve probably the toughest budget in Canadian history.

A number of convention centres got money - especially Vancouver's (although that was mainly due to the olympics I'd guess). I know Calgary's convention centre got some $ because I remember seeing the sign.

[Jonovision]

I sat at council for most of the proceedings yesterday but had to leave before Joe gave his presentation. I was also in attendance at Dr Saunders lecture the night before.

Some impressions:
Dr. Saunders during his lecture was rude, and condescending. Anytime someone would get up to ask him a real question he would cut them off and continue talking. His argument was quite weak and pulled together from ad hoc numbers that if truly analyzed did not show any discrepancies.

When council passed a motion in the morning to invite him in to present to them I was stunned. I think it set a bad precedent. As stunned as I was however, after watching his half hour presentation and then see council ask for clarifications for an hour and a half I was pleasantly surprised. I think it turned out for the better that he was there. They were polite and charming in their discussions with him and it seemed almost non of them took his argument seriously. Following him Scott Ferguson of TCL got up to present and within the first 5 minutes had totally disintegrated Saunders argument through explaining the difference between the numbers that were the basis of his argument.

I wish I could have seen the rest but I was very happy with the way council conducted itself and I'm glad to read in the news this morning that things are moving forward.