[Halifax] Nova Centre | 65-58-58 m | 16-15-14 fl | Completed

[someone123]

The "too tall" argument is vague and arbitrary - not really worth addressing on its own.

There are two big fallacies about government spending that are partly addressed in the article. Both are disturbing:

(1) If the economy is doing badly the government must spend less. Government spending always hurts the economy, or hurts the economy if there is a deficit.

(2) If something is worth building is can be run profitably by the public sector. Conversely, if it's not worthwhile to the public, private developers won't build it.

[kph06]

I love how the image of the convention centre for the Heritage Trusts pow-wow has the Rank Inc water mark on it. That right there shoots down the credibility of the event for me. They have also expanded their Facebook group to feature protests of the Roy Building and Discovery Centre Building. This coupled with Epstien considering running for mayor and Sloane and Bousquet winning awards in the coast for their respective hobbies is enough to almost give me an aneurysm.

[DigitalNinja]

Get me out of Halifax.

[Wishblade]

Originally Posted by DigitalNinja

Get me out of Halifax.

If Epstein became mayor, I would strongly consider it. What kind of a public would vote that guy in?

[DigitalNinja]

Originally Posted by Wishblade

If Epstein became mayor, I would strongly consider it. What kind of a public would vote that guy in?

The same public that reads the Coast. IMO He probably has a good chance to get voted in.

[Dmajackson]

Originally Posted by DigitalNinja

The same public that reads the Coast. IMO He probably has a good chance to get voted in.

Lets hope not ... Halifax would go down the drain faster than the rest of the province currently is.

If Epstein runs in 2012 I will seriously nominate myself for the sake of having a pro-development choice for all of the youth, college students, developers and anyone else who wants Halifax to suceed.

Oh BTW the council debate on the convnetion centre starts at 10am on Tuesday for those interested

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by DigitalNinja

Get me out of Halifax.

You should wait a while. It sounds like the HRM council would have supported the Nova Convention Centre at the last council meeting if the financial terms were better. Hopefully, these are just normal negotiations that will be worked out. If the financial terms do get worked out and the Nova Centre is built then it will be a small step forward that might lead to bigger steps forward in the future. There certainly are some great business men like Joe Ramia in Nova Scotia that can do great things if they can get past the special interest groups.

[someone123]

It's still quite likely that this project will move forward. Save the View and Tim Bousquet don't set the agenda for the provincial government and HRM council, thankfully.

Halifax can be very depressing at times. It is easily the most negative, defeatist city I have ever lived in. It is the only place I know of where there is a bizarre sort of negative exceptionalism - people believe that, no matter how good things are, they can and will always get worse and, well, the good news is all a lie anyway.

Last year the city's economy had one of the highest growth rates in North America and people talk as if it's Detroit. This could go on for 20 years and Haligonians would still think that ruin is just around the corner.

Meanwhile, a new gas station in Moncton makes it the next Calgary.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by someone123

Meanwhile, a new gas station in Moncton makes it the next Calgary.

Do you mean the new Tim Horton's/Shell that they are building at the revamped Horsman/Berry Mills intersection? It's actually going to be quite nice!

[Dartboy]

Hey I love this place I gave up a lot to move back. yeah ist a mess sometimes but if you all dont like it FTFOOH. anyway still dont like the lack of details but its here

http://halifax.ca/council/agendasc/November92010CommitteeoftheWhole.html

[halifaxboyns]

The article did well to po the anti-CC people, especially 'Bruce Devane'. I find his posts are the most negative about anything frankly and I'm so glad someone on the chronicle herald form (actually a few people) took him to task for it and the last time he was on the radio so did people there too.

[fenwick16]

There seems to be quite a few details in the following report that will be presented at the November 9 2010 meeting - http://halifax.ca/council/agendasc/documents/PPNov9.pdf .

I am surprised that they released it prior to the November 9th meeting. Nobody can say that they are hiding anything. Based on reading the report, my guess is that they will be asking for a better deal from the province .

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

The article did well to po the anti-CC people, especially 'Bruce Devane'. I find his posts are the most negative about anything frankly and I'm so glad someone on the chronicle herald form (actually a few people) took him to task for it and the last time he was on the radio so did people there too.

Yeah I tried to have a go at him, but really it is hard to even have a debate with people like that. He is far more interested in his personal pulpit then he is in actually debating facts.

It is interesting as well to see what the CH edits out when you post. In one of my posts I had started with (admittedly being rather catty) and suggesting that it might make his posts less annoying of he had an knowledge of grammar and spelling. They cut that. HAHA I couldn't resist using the purposeful misspelling (taken directly from his response to one of my posts) in the subject line of a later response.

[DigitalNinja]

I noticed that as well when reading his comments, there were constantly words not spelled correctly. Almost like he is typing to fast.

[halifaxboyns]

I agree with you both beyeas and DN; but they seem to have let me have a go at him a few times; not because I talked about his spelling or grammar (because mine can be pretty bad sometimes) but because I was actually debating the facts.

I can't remember whether it was the convention centre articles or something else where he made a comment and I took a couple good shots at him. He never responded; which to me indicates he's not willing to debate facts (like you suggested) but is more about being a loud mouth. He reminds me of Rick Bell out here in Calgary that writes for the Herald. Only writes to see his stuff in print.

But this Bruce guy reminds me of Sarah Palin or Glen Beck. Just wants to rail against everything and not debate the facts or merits of things. God if him or Epstein got voted in for mayor, I'd say start packing because the city would die horribly.

[CorbeauNoir]

Originally Posted by someone123

Halifax can be very depressing at times. It is easily the most negative, defeatist city I have ever lived in. It is the only place I know of where there is a bizarre sort of negative exceptionalism - people believe that, no matter how good things are, they can and will always get worse and, well, the good news is all a lie anyway.

Last year the city's economy had one of the
highest growth rates in North America and people talk as if it's Detroit. This could go on for 20 years and Haligonians would still think that ruin is just around the corner.

Meanwhile, a new gas station in Moncton makes it the next Calgary.

Sweet jesus, this. People here complain about the quality of life here as though they're living in Liberia or Haiti. Admittedly I haven't lived in Halifax for very long, but the sheer amount of defeatist whining that's accepted as the norm in this city puts me off of Halifax far more than any of the problems or issues that are being whined about.

The funny thing is, back when I was in Calgary all the displaced Haligonians I know can't stop talking about how badly they want to go back. It's like as soon as they get a little bit of perspective of things outside of the Maritimes they realize that Halifax really isn't the god-forsaken shantytown they believed it to be.

[fenwick16]

Getting back to the Nova Centre, I am starting to understand the rationale of the 25 year lease at $10.2 million plus $2.9 million for maintenance. By the financing it with a yearly lease, the province and municipality are dissociating themselves from any financial responsibility for the Nova Centre complex. Since the debt won't be added to the municipality's or province's financial books both the HRM and province can simply walk away from it if it fails.

My gut feeling is that the Convention Centre portion will operate at a deficit for the first 10 - 15 years and will then start making a profit. My rationale is that in 15 years at 2 - 3% inflation, the $10.2 million per year will simply not be as onerous an amount as it now seems to be. In the meantime it will provide jobs and be a stimulous for the rest of the region. As has been stated by several people - can the province and municipality afford not to move forward. One question - is that lease amount locked in for the next 25 years (starting in 2015)?

The Metro Centre now operates at a profit and has been for the past 14 years. (Source: page 8/60 - http://halifax.ca/council/agendasc/documents/PPNov9.pdf ) Prior To 1996, MC Operated In A Deficit Position, But Now Operates In A Surplus Position

PS: Just to make this post less boring, this is what many of us want to move forward:

[sdm]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Getting back to the Nova Centre, I am starting to understand the rationale of the 25 year lease at $10.2 million plus $2.9 million for maintenance. By the financing it with a yearly lease, the province and municipality are dissociating themselves from any financial responsibility for the Nova Centre complex. Since the debt won't be added to the municipality's or province's financial books both the HRM and province can simply walk away from it if it fails.

not to move forward. One question - is that lease amount locked in for the next 25 years (starting in 2015)?

Not sure if i understand how the can simply walk away? At the end of the 25 year lease i assume is what you meant.

In order to finance this project the developer will have the requires for a provincial guarantee, and the rate will likely be reset in either year 10 or year 15.

Good questions.

[fenwick16]

Based on everything that I have read, the rationale appears to be - if the entire complex failed during construction or afterward during operation (if the complex went bankrupt) then the developer has assumed the financial risk. I don't believe the HRM and province would have to pay the lease on a non-operational office/hotel/convention centre complex. In that way, the HRM and province could walk away from a non-operational Nova Centre complex. You have referred to it as a subsidy previously, I would state instead that they are guaranteeing the lease for 25 years on the convention centre portion of an operational office/hotel/convention centre complex.

In addition to the above, they can walk away at the end of 25 years or renew for two additional periods of 5 years (a total of 35 years). An example would be the Joseph Howe office building which is now considered to be obsolete (it would be costly to upgrade it to Class A office space), the HRM and province won't be stuck with an obsolete convention centre at the end of 25 - 35 years. The same logic used for deciding whether to own or lease office space is being used for the convention centre.

[someone123]

There were details in one of the reports about operating standards that the landlord would have to abide by while the lease is in effect. There are also construction requirements that must be met in order for the agreement to come into effect. I don't remember the details, but it seems like that kind of agreement would be standard for something like this.