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  #1721  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2010, 10:08 PM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
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Originally Posted by Keith P. View Post
Having had considerable experience dealing with the province -- and knowing the TIR staffer who made the presentation at the news conference last week -- I am not at all surprised by the provincial position. However, I expect that a deal will eventually get done. The province always starts with a ridiculous position and then caves. And while that particular staffer can be a difficult person to deal with sometimes due to arrogance, she is not the final authority in this.

One thing I do not know and heard nobody ask: does the existing WTCC pay property tax?
I heard that part of the presentation and I clearly recall them saying it is; although I shortly after that turned it off because I was at work. So I wasn't clear if they meant the existing building or the building plus convention centre.

From a tax formula perspective; if it's the former - they could exclude a percentage for the convention centre. So take that for what it's worth.
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  #1722  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2010, 10:13 PM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Originally Posted by halifaxboyns View Post
I heard that part of the presentation and I clearly recall them saying it is; although I shortly after that turned it off because I was at work. So I wasn't clear if they meant the existing building or the building plus convention centre.

From a tax formula perspective; if it's the former - they could exclude a percentage for the convention centre. So take that for what it's worth.
That is what I remember hearing also (that the current WTCC does pay property tax). Who owns the Metro Centre - the province or HRM? I know that the province owns the WTCC portion, but I assume that The Metro Centre is owned by HRM - is this correct?
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  #1723  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2010, 11:01 PM
worldlyhaligonian worldlyhaligonian is offline
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Sorrry worldly, I didnt use my Urban planning Major and am I ever glad I didnt. I have worked in business my whole life. Your comments on the benefits outweighing the costs is based on what? certainly not financials. This is a apathetic P3 deal. I am looking at this as if I am paying it. I am looking at this as if I am the only taxpayer and I'd rather open a resteraunt and an Airline than do this deal.

are not Nova Scotian taxpayers tired of making millionaires billionaires? I AM. We need a lot more transparency on full costs - the informaton to date is an embarrasement and good on HRM to push back. The deal sucks in so many ways. The jobs numbers have no basis and are misreported.

Rah rah rah lets build it and cross our fingers doesnt work for me. This is my money 5 times over and I will not stand back and let it get pissed away so my 5 taxes will increase.

This is the CWG coverup on costs and a whole lot more.
Ok, but most P3 projects are like this or worse! You have totally bought into what the obstructionists are putting out there. I even see people for the trade centre actually addressing some of this bogus information as if its real!

You are soo hung up on the fact that a few people will make a ton of money off this development, but I'm sorry to tell you that's how it is in Canada... especially in the maritimes.

Look at Ottawa, do you think they would have any business activity there if it weren't for the proximity of government?

Or look at the US model... where you have companies like Goldman Sachs throwing up a huge HQ based upon government bailouts because they figured they could screw everybody and get away with it. I'll take a quasi transparent P3 over that any day. Those taxpayers had zero choice and will have no return whatsoever.

Do you know how convention centre's in europe, the middle-east, and asia are built? Most of them through P3.

There IS a demand for conventions and trade shows... to say that there isn't is false information. Obviously the recession has had an impact, but increasing at a decreasing rate is different than stagnation.

Furthermore, its not even that much money when you look at the breakdown! In totally we are looking at like $500 million... peanuts when you talk about how much our government wastes on roads in areas with populations smaller than one neighborhood in Halifax.

Rank and TCL will benefit, but that isn't the point. Nova Scotian industry will be able to effectively present itself at trade shows and conventions that will be larger and have more pull from an international perspective. I have seen huge sales and MOUs signed at larger scale events all over the world. Nobody is coming to the shitty convention centre we have now, but its a much easier sell if we have a NEWER, BIGGER space.

I think everybody ignores the export marketing side of things because the misconception is evil big business instead of SME development. The whole purpose of this is to not only diversify our commercial and industrial base, but also to grow the total number of businesses. This is how we get off the government tit, but its generally impossible to foster a business environment without the right venue.

Being against a convention centre is like having no boardroom in your office, its rediculous.

Everything I'm saying is true... I know you feel like you are paying for this, but its the equivalent of university in Canada... we are getting a huge deal because its heavily federally and provincially funded.

I don't have kids, so why should my taxes go toward schools. I just don't get what you are trying to say.

The federal/provincial funding acts like a bonus if you plot the amortization of this project over time. That alone makes it worth while. We need more business subsidization of this type and not just ACOA loans to companies with no strings attached that don't get paid back.

Using a Montreal Olympics analogy just doesn't cut it.
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  #1724  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2010, 12:50 AM
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What about all the gov money pumped into Michelin (3 plants), Stora Enso, Bowater and millions spent on thousands of acres of wilderness for nature preserves. What about the `TAXPAYERS" 40 million for the cheap 4plex in Bedford. RIM got $19 million in tax rebates to set up shop and the fishery gets millions every year. The list goes on and on and on....BUckey wake up.. it is all about job creation. The feds and province rake in $$$ from each job created in terms of income tax and HST from these new spenders.

Pierre Trudeau once said that if Atlantic Canada was a business we would be bankrupt. We rely on federal transfer payments to survive and the only way to break that cycle is to invest where the return on jobs and the prospect of attracting new business is the greatest. The CONVENTION CENTRE is it. YOUR taxes will increase much faster if we don't find a way out of this downward spiral we are in. Your model involves spending tax dollars we don't have on capex type ventures that have little or no return. That is what drives taxes up..
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  #1725  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2010, 2:17 AM
sdm sdm is offline
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Well the allnovascotia is reporting that Kelly is considering that the city should finance the whole project and have it as an asset in 25 years.

I am not sure the public will support this as just a few months ago they were finding ways to cut 30 million.
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  #1726  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2010, 2:21 AM
worldlyhaligonian worldlyhaligonian is offline
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Originally Posted by Empire View Post
What about all the gov money pumped into Michelin (3 plants), Stora Enso, Bowater and millions spent on thousands of acres of wilderness for nature preserves. What about the `TAXPAYERS" 40 million for the cheap 4plex in Bedford. RIM got $19 million in tax rebates to set up shop and the fishery gets millions every year. The list goes on and on and on....BUckey wake up.. it is all about job creation. The feds and province rake in $$$ from each job created in terms of income tax and HST from these new spenders.

Pierre Trudeau once said that if Atlantic Canada was a business we would be bankrupt. We rely on federal transfer payments to survive and the only way to break that cycle is to invest where the return on jobs and the prospect of attracting new business is the greatest. The CONVENTION CENTRE is it. YOUR taxes will increase much faster if we don't find a way out of this downward spiral we are in. Your model involves spending tax dollars we don't have on capex type ventures that have little or no return. That is what drives taxes up..
Good points! A convention centre acts as a hub for mostly SMEs... its a very affordable way to network/sell in your industry without travelling far. I think it would benefit rural Nova Scotian companies more than anyone.

The big companies are getting tons of money, and I don't hear enough complaints about that.

If Epstein and Co really were agains this for business reasons, then why aren't they protesting all this other money...

Its because this is about height for 99.9% of opponents and they won't straight up say so.
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  #1727  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2010, 4:15 AM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Originally Posted by sdm View Post
Well the allnovascotia is reporting that Kelly is considering that the city should finance the whole project and have it as an asset in 25 years.

I am not sure the public will support this as just a few months ago they were finding ways to cut 30 million.
The allnovascotia.com story states that the HRM is considering financing the municipality's portion of the convention centre ($47 million) at better interest rates while still wanting the federal and provincial contributions. According to the story, getting better interest rates could potentially save the municipality 3.2 to 3.45 million per year over the 25 year period (this would be a very substantial savings). Whether the HRM owns the facility or not, it would make sense to finance its portion at better interest rates. If it is run as a business owned by the HRM, then I think that it would also make sense for the municipality to pay property tax to themselves since I think the property tax would be deductible from any profit generated (so they would not have to pay as much corporate tax to the provincial and federal governments). I think a profit would be quite possible under this scenario.

It sounds like a gutsy move and it certainly makes sense to pay much less per year. It sounds like the HRM would also want ownership of the convention centre portion of the Nova Centre complex (instead of Rank Inc. owning it).

Last edited by fenwick16; Oct 21, 2010 at 12:09 PM. Reason: Removed redundant statements
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  #1728  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2010, 4:41 AM
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Good luck Folks. NO numbers yet to back up anything. Im done with the personal attacks against me. It is immature and unbneccassry to make you point YOu will be glad to know I will know I will not be back.

everyone seem so at ease spending the public's money without much detail. I have been called everything here and I guarentee I will not post for 5 years from today.

They better rejig this deal and they better start stat providing real financial back up to support the projections. Right now the business case is a joke. I expect lost of childish comment to come like good riddance. - I will leave with this folks - After managing a billion dollar/yr division I will gurantee you that some of my best business decsions ever were NO go decisions IN the face of what my SVPs wanted and short term they were likjely bad political moves internally but longer term very strategic for me.

Fenwick - Great to see th city alreay doing exactly what you said - looking at financing the project differently. Yu obviously have a much better grasp of finance than you sheepinshly claimed you had. I think all of those numbers you presented were well done. I didnt analyse them but intuitively you were bang on. a step forward.
EDIT LOL
IN my 100 hours on this issue I read the Metro center has never made a profit but 35 years ago was hailed as the saviour also I am in that place a few times a week and I have no idea how it could ever make money. I can edit this post forever I have had recent experience with HRM finance and the TOOLE. complete incompetants. I beleive some others in Senior management very competent and have impressed me but a few are a joke. The HRM AG will look after that if he does half job the provincial AG did.

Last edited by Buckey; Oct 21, 2010 at 5:32 AM.
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  #1729  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2010, 5:07 AM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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My calculations were very basic and didn't take into account the effect of inflation on future lease payments and quantitative interest savings by paying a lower interest rate. I am sure that the city has accountants and economists who can take all factors into account. The city would also know how much the province gets annually from the current WTCC in income.

Buckey - The HRM owns and operates the Halifax Metro Centre (source: https://www.halifax.ca/Council/agendasc/documents/100126ca1018.pdf) and I heard that it makes a profit (if not then it probably pays millions a year in property tax). We should both relax and let the HRM worry about the financial details.

I am logging-off - I don't want to peeve anyone with more financial details. I just wanted to mention more details of the allnovascotia.com story since these negotiations between the 3 levels of government will eventually determine whether the convention centre proceeds or not.

Last edited by fenwick16; Oct 27, 2010 at 9:19 PM. Reason: Shortened my post
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  #1730  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2010, 5:41 PM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
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Buckley - I wouldn't take anything against your position personally. I've had a few scraps with people on here and I haven't been posting for too long; I don't take it personally. Everyone is free to have their opinion on the issue; ultimately it's the government that will decide how to proceed.

We all have different opinions; some of them very strong - don't feel discouraged.

I think Empire's quote from Trudeau is very telling of the state of Nova Scotia (and the maritimes in general). It seems to me that if other cities are investing in building these facilities; they feel that doing so will help move create bigger economies of scale and thus move from 'have not'. Certainly the lack of growth from off-shore oil (which was supposed to be the salvation for Nova Scotia) is a huge issue.

I think many companies have reached a point that they feel the economy is so weak in Nova Scotia that they may not be willing to invest here; without some help from the Provice. I may be wrong from that perspective; but certainly the fact the NS government so freely gives payroll rebates to places like Michellin, call centres and other industries would lead me to believe that's a reasonable assumption.

When I lived in Nova Scotia - I found myself very skeptical of it ever growing; but yet here we are over 400,000 and growing faster. After being out here in Alberta for over 5 years; I see this province as having a very can-do attitude and we need to take that on. There is always risk in anything and we need to accept that. Government is in the business of economic development and the fact is that not every investment they make to 'stimulate' the economy works out for the better. Is there a chance of that here - yes; I think we all have to accept there is some risk here. But; there is also the chance that this could do the exact opposite and be a huge stimulus.

My attitude about this can be summed up this way: I would easily return home and be willing to accept the increased tax burden if this venture succeeded or failed simply because if it pays off; it could be a huge stimulus for the entire province. I guess for me; the risk of failure is offset by the potential for this to really stimulate other sectors (increase the need for more hotels, bigger rental car agencies; more restaurant businesses and more flights to the airport). The issue that the spin-offs would only be for HRM I don't think is true; because people will come back to visit - if they've never been to Nova Scotia before. I don't have stats on just how many come back - but I'd guess it's over 25% of conference attendance - if that guess is true; that's a huge pay off for the region.

I guess for me; I want to look at the positive and not dwell on the risks; because that's what keeps this province from moving forward.
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  #1731  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2010, 6:47 PM
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Certainly the lack of growth from off-shore oil (which was supposed to be the salvation for Nova Scotia) is a huge issue.
I think the offshore debacle was itself very telling about the attitude of the province. Basically there is a tendency to look for an economic "saviour", preferably some natural resource that can be sold off to fill government coffers and sustain the status quo. When the resource isn't there the province scrambles to find one and when it is they sit back and relax because there is no pressure to improve.

This is how most of Canada operates but it is not going to work out for NS because the province (unfairly) does not have the same access to natural resources as others (even though it paid for the development of the West, northern Quebec, and so on). Unfortunately Canada manages natural resources in a messed up way that has never been to the advantage of the Maritimes.

All of this aside, however, plenty of successful places do not have a ton of natural resources. The US Northeast, Western Europe, West Coast, Japan, etc. are all examples of this. The success of places like Seattle or Austin has very little to do with natural resources. Nova Scotia needs to get out of the bad (Lower- and Upper-) Canadian mindset (never suited to the province) that it needs to sit back and wait for a windfall of oil and gas or minerals in order to be successful. It's time to move beyond the resource colony mentality.
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  #1732  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2010, 9:24 PM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
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I think the offshore debacle was itself very telling about the attitude of the province. Basically there is a tendency to look for an economic "saviour", preferably some natural resource that can be sold off to fill government coffers and sustain the status quo. When the resource isn't there the province scrambles to find one and when it is they sit back and relax because there is no pressure to improve.

This is how most of Canada operates but it is not going to work out for NS because the province (unfairly) does not have the same access to natural resources as others (even though it paid for the development of the West, northern Quebec, and so on). Unfortunately Canada manages natural resources in a messed up way that has never been to the advantage of the Maritimes.

All of this aside, however, plenty of successful places do not have a ton of natural resources. The US Northeast, Western Europe, West Coast, Japan, etc. are all examples of this. The success of places like Seattle or Austin has very little to do with natural resources. Nova Scotia needs to get out of the bad (Lower- and Upper-) Canadian mindset (never suited to the province) that it needs to sit back and wait for a windfall of oil and gas or minerals in order to be successful. It's time to move beyond the resource colony mentality.

I always believed that if the province couldn't benefit from the offshore oil sector (either because we actually didn't have any, there was no desire to press forward on it if there was some (because of the environmental lobby) or other reasons); that Halifax could benefit from the spin-offs of that sector. Take Hybernia for example. Until the recent announcement of one company moving it's offices to NFLD, I always believed you'd see the regional offices of those companies in Halifax - it made sense to me. Good transportation access, major port, balanced property cost (good mix of housing types, costs etc.), pretty reasonable economy, potentially a strong convention centre pressance and the fact that the off-shore rigs usually were based in HRM seemed to me, to support the spin off industries (helicopter charters, engineering, rig maintenance, construction etc).

When that company announced they were moving to NFLD; that vission in my mind collapsed. I'm not sure how you move forward with that...would Nova Centre (in whatever form) provide more incentive for other oil companies to remain here, or new ones to come in? I don't know...
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  #1733  
Old Posted Oct 22, 2010, 2:17 PM
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Oil Response Only

OK - I will not comment on CC. I could not agree more on the OIL biz. ON Calgary in general. It would be so nice to be not so reliant on Government as the entire driver of the economy.
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  #1734  
Old Posted Oct 22, 2010, 5:35 PM
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If the money is in NFLD the province will just pay companies to locate there. Other natural advantages don't matter much, particularly if Halifax's competitiveness is hindered by high taxes, NIMBYs, etc.
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  #1735  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2010, 12:03 PM
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Critics compare convention centres
Ottawa’s an inspired work of architecture, Halifax’s an ‘expensive parking garage’

By BILL POWER Business Reporter
Sat, Oct 23 - 4:53 AM / Chronicle Herald



The $159-million convention centre proposed for Halifax.


An artist's drawing of the $180-million convention centre planned for Ottawa.


Ottawa gets a spectacular domed convention centre that is winning raves around the world. Halifax gets a pig in a blanket.

This was the consensus Friday among some observers of the debate over a proposed new convention centre for Halifax. They had their calculators ready to compare dollar values of the $159-million proposal for downtown Halifax and the $180-million Ottawa Convention Centre scheduled to open in April.

"It is time for a serious pause to consider what is being received for the investment," said Christine Macy, dean of the faculty of architecture and planning at Dalhousie University.

Macy said it does not take an architect or an accountant to compare visuals and determine something is amiss.

"Ottawa gets a marvellous structure that brilliantly takes advantage of its place overlooking the canal," she said. "And for almost the same amount of money, Halifax is getting two storeys underground, effectively a very expensive parking garage."

Ottawa’s downtown convention centre is more expensive but provides a lot more space and reflects inspired design, Macy said. She said all of Ottawa is buzzing with excitement over the new complex.

"The Halifax project, at least what we’ve seen of it, is an uninspired sort of office complex of the sort that would have been built in the 1980s," she said.

The most vocal opponent of the concept of a new Halifax convention centre is the Coalition to Save the View. Members of that group complain that the hotel and office towers that developer Rank Inc. would build as part of the convention centre complex would block the view of Halifax Harbour from the entrance to the Citadel National Historic Site.

Macy and others contacted Friday said they have no affiliation with Save the View.

Andrew Smith, an accountant and developer of the Glubes Loft Townhouses, a condominium complex on Cornwallis Street, said he has a background in property taxation. By his calculation, the convention centre would cost more than $1,000 per square foot to build. He said he arrived at this number by dividing the $159-million cost by the 115,000 square feet of usable space.

"This is like paying more than $1 million for a 1,200-square-foot bungalow," Smith said. "This does not make sense."

John Wesley Chisholm, a filmmaker and entrepreneur with a finance degree from Dalhousie, said number-crunching raises questions about the value of the convention centre.

"We’ve not seen the sort of five-year projections on revenue and expenses that any business would be required to provide before borrowing," he said.

Chisholm questioned why the project is advancing without public consultation.

Rank Inc. has not participated publicly in the debate over the convention centre.

Premier Darrell Dexter announced on Oct. 13 that the province would cover its share of the cost. Halifax Regional Municipality is now conducting its own assessment, and the proposal still must win support from the federal government.

CBC News reported recently that the Ottawa convention centre has already booked more than 80 major international and national conventions for the next three years. Some are predicted to bring as many as 6,000 delegates to the national capital.
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  #1736  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2010, 12:40 PM
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It`s too bad the lot where Tug`s Pub is couldn`t be swaped for the Herald site. A waterfront convention centre in Halifax would have huge market appeal.

Tug`s Pub large parking lot.
http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&source=s_...7,-63.570301&spn=0.001897,0.004753&z=18]
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  #1737  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2010, 12:53 PM
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What was this event, a Save the View tea party? I am very tired of the ongoing comparisons to the Ottawa facility. As I understand it, that is an expansion of an existing facility and thus the costs cannot be compared in a meaningful way. The usual disparaging remarks comparing this proposal to a parking garage, and the presence of the likes of John Wesley Chisholm, who makes films for a living and is hardly an expert on urban development but nevertheless spouts his wisdom constantly in the pages of the Coast and elsewhere, means that this gabfest has little credibility.

While the site of Tugs Pub is already taken for development, fear not: if the CC was proposed for that site, the obstructionists would be saying that global warming would put it underwater in 10 years and that we would be building a convention center in a sewage-filed salt-water swimming pool.
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  #1738  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2010, 1:18 PM
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The Nova Centre cost is actually $140 million and the gross space is 306,000 square feet (the 115,000 square feet mentioned in the story above is rentable space). If prefunction/reception space is included, then the total Usable Space is 166,500 square feet. If washrooms kitchens, etc. are included then it is 306,000 square feet. The $159 million which keeps circulating is an artificial number that was calculated to include interim financing charges of $19 million ($140 million plus $19 million interim financing). If the Nova Centre were "paid for as it is built" then the cost is $140 million.

If you compare the floor plans between the Nova Centre and Ottawa Centre, they are very similar in size. After looking at the floor plans, I feel much more confident that the Nova Centre is a practical, economical design. The Nova Centre has a larger Ballroom with almost twice the height (a 28 foot ceiling) whereas the Ottawa Centre has more individual meeting space. The large, high-ceiling Ballroom in the Nova Centre will be very impressive. I don't consider the difference in prefunction/reception area to be very important.

I tabulated the specifications from the two websites below:

OTTAWA CENTRE (reference: http://ottawaconventioncentre.com/_files...or%20Plans%20and%20Capacity%20Charts.pdf)
46025 Meeting Space
64696 Prefunction/Reception Total
56179 Multipurpose Hall
21303 Ballroom
188203 Total USABLE Convention Space
Gross Square feet - ?

NOVA CENTRE (reference: https://conventioncentreinfo.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/WTCC-II-Bid-Summary.pdf )
28,000 sq. ft. Meeting Space
51000 sq. ft. Prefunction/Reception Total
52000 sq. ft. Multipurpose Hall
35500 sq. ft. Ballroom
166500 sq. ft. Total USABLE Convention Space
306,000 sq. ft. GROSS area (including washrooms, loading areas, kitchens, administration, etc. - reference - calculated from page 22/36 and as shown in the floor plans https://conventioncentreinfo.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/WTCC-II-Bid-Summary.pdf)

Do people in the HRM want to pay $180 million for an Ottawa-type Centre or $140 million for the Nova Centre? The Ottawa Centre looks great from the one front view that is almost always shown, however it is not curved glass all around the building - this is only on the one side. The other 3 sides appear to be vertical glass(?) walls. I think that the Nova Centre has to be marketed better - there are some great features in it; such as the expansive, high-ceiling Ballroom which will likely be good for live bands (the Ballroom is 50% larger and almost twice as high as the Ballroom in the Ottawa Convention Centre).

Last edited by fenwick16; Oct 24, 2010 at 7:04 PM. Reason: Shortened my post
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  #1739  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2010, 5:06 PM
worldlyhaligonian worldlyhaligonian is offline
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Nova Centre is more attractive IMO...

The convention centre part of the ottawa one isn't bad, but those buildings surrounding it are pretty ugly. From what I remember of that area, one is a 70's gov building and the other a crapy hotel.

Is there no hotel portion in the ottawa one?
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  #1740  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2010, 8:22 PM
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Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian View Post
Nova Centre is more attractive IMO...

The convention centre part of the ottawa one isn't bad, but those buildings surrounding it are pretty ugly. From what I remember of that area, one is a 70's gov building and the other a crapy hotel.

Is there no hotel portion in the ottawa one?
Re: Ottawa CC

Yes, the building on the left is a hotel, the one on the right is actually NDHQ. It's actually across the street from the convention centre. The convention centre is next to the Rideau Centre (which, from the photo above's perspective, is behind the CC). I walked by the construction site several times this summer on the way to the Rideau Centre.

The buildings immediately adjacent to the Ottawa CC are nothing to write home about, but the area is very nice, and has several good hotels and other attractions.
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