[Halifax] Nova Centre | 65-58-58 m | 16-15-14 fl | Completed

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by sdm

Hey no problem Fenwick.

One thing that was stated to me today was how this deal now being conditional on the existing trade centre being taken over by the city is a setup by Dexter to maintain that he is pro development as many consider the city to take on the existing centre to be a big hit to the city.

I heard that all the NDP wants is a land swap? Sounds like a good deal especially since the city won't get to take it until 2014. It will be occupied by the WTCC until the new convention centre opens.

Before you were counting on the federal government turning the NDP down as an excuse for them to get out of the deal. Now you are just grasping at straws.

[sdm]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I heard that all the NDP wants is a land swap? Sounds like a good deal especially since the city won't get to take it until 2014. It will be occupied by the WTCC until the new convention centre opens.

Before you were counting on the federal government turning the NDP down as an excuse for them to get out of the deal. Now you are just grasping at straws.

One of the land swaps that is being discussed is a revenue producing one, therefore the city gives up a revenue stream to take on a non producing review stream.

Secondly, yes i am still concerned the Federal money will get shot down.

You are very defensive.

So lets see here, question for you. Why do you think the total federal contribution is 47 million and due at completion of the centre?

[Empire]

Originally Posted by Buckey

LOve the folks who decide To just throw out the BRUCE or heritage crap stuff at anyone who decides to think for themselves. That is such complete bullshit. There is nothing worng with walking away from a deal. This is a good deal for RANK. They have a 25 year revenue stream - we have a 25 year cost stream and we pay for it 3 times if you opwn a home in the city. If you own a business you pay 4 times or more. and we will pay like the bridges forever. Lets stop spending tax dollars on foolish ventures

Why do you sound like the quintessential Nova Scotia taxpayer?
Let me explain......anything that has potential to further the Province, develop buisness alliances or actually have an ROI must be a bad deal or the developer has a deal to die for. Get "REAL", this province is sinking because of an attitude that says let's spend tax dollars that we don't have on roads, schools, fire depts., wharves, swamp land or perhaps something that will benefit thousands like Sydney Steel. Have you calculated the HST on 25 years of additional goods and services for the Nova Centre?

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by sdm

So lets see here, question for you. Why do you think the total federal contribution is 47 million and due at completion of the centre?

I can see that math isn't your strong point, sdm. Of course, you probably think it some conspiracy when in fact it is just basic algebra. What is ($159 million - $19 million) divided by 3 rounded to the next highest integer? If you don't know where these numbers are coming from, then read the news.

[sdm]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I can see that math isn't your strong point. Of course you probably think it some conspiracy when in fact it is just basic algebra.

Ok, so now you resort to personal attacks to make you feel better. Even then you still don't answer the question, probably because you don't now the answer.

[Buckey]

The numbers do not pan out for a new versus existing the incremental revenue versus the incremental costs are flawed and the net ROI is negative is so many ways.

Are we trying to give Ramia as much money in this flawed P3 deal as we have the armoyans and others?

The jobs number is so messed up it is silly. There si no 27,000 or 2,700 jobs. There are at best 120 FTEs at all of TCL right now. we spend 3 Million a year on the place and yes lots of spinoffs no argument - over estimated as many delegates local.

remember even current TCL spinoff numbers are subjective ther truly are not measurable they are best guesses. anyway back to the JOBS - I say this creates 200 new FTEs at best and we fund a great chunk of a private hotel.

I ask everyone - look at the pictures. look at two flors and think - its a 500 million building and we finance and pay for 1/3 of it and in 25 years we have nothing. does 2 floors look like even 1/3rd.

I have cut this side of pork 8 different directions. there are maggots on every cut. show me some more meat - lets drill down on these numbers - how did they roll up this way.


I will measure this forever. I want to no exactly where those jobs are beog created I want to measure and track it.

[Buckey]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I can see that math isn't your strong point, sdm. Of course, you probably think it some conspiracy when in fact it is just basic algebra. What is ($159 million - $19 million) divided by 3 rounded to the next highest integer? If you don't know where these numbers are coming from, then read the news.

NO math isnt my strong point LOLOLOL so funny it is sad. sorry I will not drink the koolaid of my colleagues in Business. Likely why I dont mix well with the chamber asskissers. Sorry I like thinking all by myself.

No math - yeah I likely have no degrees or business degrees or any experience in Finance. I am probalbly just some liberal arts washed up weed smoking beatnik driving my 25 year old bicyle to the my tenured professor job daily having never fully recovered from Woodstock wishing for a simply time

EDIT I thought that math shot was at me LOLLOLOLOL sorry - hell KP called me smart the other day and that hurt my feelings too

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by sdm

Ok, so now you resort to personal attacks to make you feel better. Even then you still don't answer the question, probably because you don't now the answer.

ok, I edited my post so read it again (I gave you a few hints, plus read the news - it is all in there). You and your friends are destroying the city with negativism and half-truths.

[sdm]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

ok, I edited my post so read it again (I gave you a few hints, plus read the news - it is all in there). You and your friends are destroying the city with negativism and half-truths.

If thats what you think, so be it. But i know for one that with the developments i've been a part of in the city i find that statement very insulting. If you care to know, where do you think the equity requirement for financing is coming from Fenwick?

[Buckey]

what about that theory the NDP knows this will not fly and are pushing it knowing it will die and then have business behind them because they tried. a Bluff

[Buckey]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

ok, I edited my post so read it again (I gave you a few hints, plus read the news - it is all in there). You and your friends are destroying the city with negativism and half-truths.

and that prsentation with the jobs and the magical numbers are not half truths. They are full out misleading hype bullshit is what it all is

[Buckey]

Fenwick - given we are so daft with numbers with our fine arts degrees and such. tell me how many jobs at the WTCC now and how many with the new one?

[Buckey]

Dexter ends the week with budget cuts announcement. Darrell you win. Im tapping out. I give you win. build his hotel - Ill pay and my neighbor will pay. lots of great server and housekeeping jobs great work cut services.

awesome for the resteraunt guys downtown. the only spinoff out of this whole thing is my HEAD spinning off

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by sdm

If thats what you think, so be it. But i know for one that with the developments i've been a part of in the city i find that statement very insulting. If you care to know, where do you think the equity requirement for financing is coming from Fenwick?

If you won't read what I reply then why not read this article in the allnovascotia.com printed on October 14, 2010 - "Province Vows to Pay for Convention Centre - But How?" I think that the author, Paul McLeod explained it very well with several quotes from the Premier.

It bothers me that you are so intent on stopping this convention centre that you won't take the time to consider the fact that the province and HRM would be paying 10's of millions of dollars more over 25 years than they would if they paid in lump sum payments over the 3 - 4 years construction period. This is why the federal government will only pay $46.7 million of the cost because (quoted from the allnovascotia.com article):

The federal government has shown no interest in long-term financing. Under the existing plan it would kick in a one-time payment of $46.7 million

In the paragraph before the one quoted above, Premier Dexter stated:

... the cost in the way of financing it is a real cost it's not an imaginary one. Delaying the receipt of those lease payments to a particular date has an associated cost of money that goes along with it.

I typed these quotes in by hand. Premier Dexter is stating the truth here -it will cost much more by waiting until 2014 to start the payments.

The financial deal is due to be presented to the HRM council on Oct 19 2010, so I assume a lot more details will be released at that time. Hopefully the province and HRM will decide not to wait until 2014 to start payments.

And regarding Buckey's concerns about not owning anything after 25 years, why don't you contact your local MLA and ask why not? For Buckey, I am posting a link to this article since it has no inflated job numbers - http://www.canadianbusinessjournal.ca/bu...r_game-changer_convention_centre_10.html. Have faith in Halifax and province of Nova Scotia - of course people will want to go there and once they have been there they will want to return.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by Buckey

what about that theory the NDP knows this will not fly and are pushing it knowing it will die and then have business behind them because they tried. a Bluff

The NDP aren't that smart.

[Buckey]

fen in terms of payment options sadly I am now too reliant on compueters and that silly NPV and related funstions to actually think with my own brain about the different financing options so I will assume you are bang on we are paying more by waiting because we actually pay the financing costs.

On financing, Has Rank secured financing even if conditional on the deal going through? His portion is still a huge chunk of money. Given the no overrun promises and no payments until completeion with completeion targets and penalties I say Ill pay the extra IF I was endorsing this. I am still far far away from endorsing this.

I have no idea why in the last few years I all of a sudden gave a shit about anything tax related. I stilldont know squat about politics or as I stated about design and buildings etc.

I cannot even explain why this project eats at me. I know its the numbers and the numbers and the numbers. I amnot in this industry and never have been so no sour grapes here or anything on lost opportunities. The CC will have no impact on me yeah or hey except my expected increase in taxes. Two weeks from today I will pay a few grand online to the city for my bi annual tax payment and mnaybe I should chrish it as in ten years what will it be?

This is too big too much risk and for too little reward. This has penny stock written allover it. A lot of hype and twisted number and great projections and using MY MONEY. and like allpenny stocks the stakeholder gets screwed.

[Buckey]

Originally Posted by Empire

The NDP aren't that smart.

Thanks for that First time I smiled in an hour

I needed that as I really have been angry the last hour over this topic and the late week spending cuts announcements.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by Buckey

The numbers do not pan out for a new versus existing the incremental revenue versus the incremental costs are flawed and the net ROI is negative is so many ways.

Are we trying to give Ramia as much money in this flawed P3 deal as we have the armoyans and others?

The jobs number is so messed up it is silly. There si no 27,000 or 2,700 jobs. There are at best 120 FTEs at all of TCL right now. we spend 3 Million a year on the place and yes lots of spinoffs no argument - over estimated as many delegates local.

remember even current TCL spinoff numbers are subjective ther truly are not measurable they are best guesses. anyway back to the JOBS - I say this creates 200 new FTEs at best and we fund a great chunk of a private hotel.

I ask everyone - look at the pictures. look at two flors and think - its a 500 million building and we finance and pay for 1/3 of it and in 25 years we have nothing. does 2 floors look like even 1/3rd.

I have cut this side of pork 8 different directions. there are maggots on every cut. show me some more meat - lets drill down on these numbers - how did they roll up this way.


I will measure this forever. I want to no exactly where those jobs are beog created I want to measure and track it.

This is where you should be investing your "Hard" earned tax $$$$$$ Let's hope it isn't a White Elephant............
I know you think that your tax dollars mean something in your neighbourhood....sidewalks, wading pool, improvements to the xxxhall etc. but that is just not the case.


Seaside gets $16.4M for rural web
Taxpayers buy $4M stake in company, with the remainder in loans
Last Updated: Friday, October 15, 2010 | 8:23 AM AT Comments21Recommend9.
CBC News
Nova Scotia has extended a $16.4-million lifeline to Seaside Communications so it can finish its broadband hookup in Cape Breton and the northern mainland.

'I'm confident … that it is money well spent.'
—Bill Estabrooks, acting ministerThe province bought a $4-million stake in the technology company, the government announced Thursday.

The rest of the money is in the form of loans. Under the deal, $5 million must be repaid as soon as Seaside receives its last instalment from the province for delivering high-speed internet service to the nine northern counties.

"They've got 93 per cent coverage and we're looking at getting it up there as close to 100 per cent as possible," said Bill Estabrooks, acting minister of rural and economic development.

"This is going to be an added boost for them, and they're going to meet that demand, and I'm confident in the fact that it is money well spent."

In 2007, Seaside, EastLink and OmniGlobe Networks were hired to bring broadband to rural Nova Scotia. The federal and provincial governments invested $35 million, while Seaside and EastLink put up another $40 million.

They were supposed to finish the job by January, but that deadline was pushed back.

A government spokesperson said the province is aware of "several hundred" people living in challenging geographic locations who are still waiting for their connection through Seaside or EastLink.

Parker Donham, a spokesman for Seaside, said the remaining residents are in areas that are difficult to reach. He said the company expects to have its network completed by the end of the year.

All the companies have penalty clauses, but the province says no decision has been made on whether they will be charged a late fee.

The $16.4 million comes from the cabinet-controlled Industrial Expansion Fund.


Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2010/10/15/ns-seaside-internet-loan.html#ixzz12UMPiYhY

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Buckey

I ask everyone - look at the pictures. look at two flors and think - its a 500 million building and we finance and pay for 1/3 of it and in 25 years we have nothing. does 2 floors look like even 1/3rd.

Isn't it a little weird to focus on ownership at the end of the 25 year period when currently they are having trouble figuring out what to do with the existing 30 year old convention centre?

I also don't have a huge amount of trouble believing that the cost reflects the price of building the convention space. The square footage of the bottom is large (160,000+ plus parking spaces and so on) and requires things like a large column-free ballroom with high ceilings. That is much more expensive than a standard floor of office or hotel. It's also worth remembering that the government did compare this bid to a shadow bid.

[fenwick16]

I did a spreadsheet of the costs that I got from various newspaper stories. The main numbers came from the initial Premier Dexter news conference reported by CBC - http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2010/10/06/ns-halifax-convention-centre-jobs.html . Another story with financing numbers is this one - http://halifax.mediacoop.ca/story/convention-centre-figures-released/4792 . I didn't have to use many assumptions - just the payment schedule if the province decides to pay-as-the construction-proceeds (option-A) versus putting off the payments until 2014 and then financing it at 6.9% through Rank Inc (option-B). This is how I arrived at the numbers:

If the NDP, HRM and Federal government pay the construction fees as they go then at 1/3 each (with no interim financing charge of $19 million since that is the amount for delaying all payments until 2014) then it will be $46.7 million dollars each ($140 million/3 = $46.7 million each). This is stated in the media, just in different words.
Payment Option A - Pay as construction proceeds
1) I had to estimate the payment schedule (it shouldn't be 100% up-front because even expensive projects aren't funded that way). I would guess something like:
* 30% up-front, x $46.7 million each (March 2011) = $14.01 million each
* 30% more at the 50% completion date (say September 2012) = $14.01 million each
* 30% more at the 80% completion date (say September 2013) = $14.01 million each
* the final 10% when it is 100% complete (say March 2014) = $4.67 million each
PLUS: $2.9 million (HRM & NS combined) or $1.45 million each, every year for 25 years starting in 2014.

Payment Option B - First Payment March 2014 at 100% complete
Federal government $46.7 million lump sum payment.
Province + HRM - $10.2 million per year for 25 years
PLUS: $2.9 million (HRM & NS combined) every year for 25 years starting in 2014.

Over a period of 25 years plus the 3 years construction period, the province and HRM will pay almost double the cost if they put off payments until 2014 (in the table, I have the first capital lease yearly payment in 2015 but it would likely be spread over the first year starting in 2014). One reason that the province and HRM will be paying so much more money is because of the relatively high long term interest rate of 6.9% plus 19 million interim financing through Rank Inc. versus the 4.7% 30 year bond rate that NS can currently get - http://halifax.mediacoop.ca/story/convention-centre-figures-released/4792 .

PS: For the table below: These are my tabulated numbers based on several media reports and (in the case of option-A) are based on my estimates of the construction payment terms and milestones as stated above. Option-B details come directly from media reports. I support the convention centre but shouldn't the NDP select the cheapest option?