Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[twoNeurons]

Agreed. Speed up the buses, making them more efficient. Signal priority is a good idea.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Gordon

One thing that might help is having the B Line buses having the ability to control the traffic lights along the route. this route is full in the opposite direction of peak from Cambie to Arbutus in the afternoons.

I'm not a traffic engineer, but I suspect the density of buses in the Broadway corridor is so high that such a strategy can't work effectively. It would hardly leave any time for north-south traffic to proceed through the intersections. There has to be a minimum time allowed for cross traffic to flow.

[squeezied]

That's why a surface LRT with long trains (for high capacity) and short headways wouldn't work on Broadway... though I should be telling that to Zwei, but what's the point?

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

I'm not a traffic engineer, but I suspect the density of buses in the Broadway corridor is so high that such a strategy can't work effectively. It would hardly leave any time for north-south traffic to proceed through the intersections. There has to be a minimum time allowed for cross traffic to flow.

You dont have to have the buses control the intersections, you just have to have a control room somewhere control them. The buses are all GPS equipped and all the intersections can have video monitoring, and it would be fairly easy to set up a system to measure the traffic volume along Broadway and the important cross streets. Once this is all in place you just need a person to monitor it and help out by controlling the lights in the most optimum way. On top of this you can develop a algorithm with the data to help make the best decisions, this algorithm can always tweaked and improved as you move forward.

It would never be perfect with the bus and traffic volume but you dont need it to be, all you need is for it to be better. Even if all you take is intersection monitoring, the GPS information from the buses, put in to one room ith one person who has the ability to control lights and im sure that one person will make a very big difference in the efficiency of the buses as he will have a overview of the entire system unlike a driver who only has a view of his one bus.

[officedweller]

The other thing about buses on Broadway is that the 99 B-Line buses must pass the No. 9 buses - so just one lane isn't going to do it - it'll be clogged by No. 9 buses.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by cornholio

You dont have to have the buses control the intersections, you just have to have a control room somewhere control them.

I strongly suspect that you could make it a little better, but I doubt you'd be able to reduce the overall stop time at lights all that much. I suspect that only way to make a significant improvement would be to group the buses into "convoys", but that's very difficult with different buses stopping at different stops and waiting various times to board and disembark differing numbers of passengers. It also becomes a big issue for the capacity of the bus stops themselves (i.e., how many buses can you fit into a bus stop).

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

I strongly suspect that you could make it a little better, but I doubt you'd be able to reduce the overall stop time at lights all that much. I suspect that only way to make a significant improvement would be to group the buses into "convoys", but that's very difficult with different buses stopping at different stops and waiting various times to board and disembark differing numbers of passengers. It also becomes a big issue for the capacity of the bus stops themselves (i.e., how many buses can you fit into a bus stop).

But even improving the efficiency(as a result capacity) of the 99 by say 10% the difference and value of that 10% is huge. It might not be noticeable to the commuters, and it might sound like a insignificant improvement, but even 10% would equal to thousands of extra people per day, and millions saved every year in operational costs.

In the end there isnt much else they can do, well except get longer buses which I still dont understand why they didnt get double articulated buses on a route like Broadway. Another option is to tweak pedestrian crossing lights at cross intersections to better allow right turning vehicles to clear broadway, also dont understand why they haven't done that yet, and a few no right turn signs would also greatly improve the flow, capacity and efficiency of the 99 buses, and the 9 buses and the rest of the traffic along Broadway.

Not to mention that regrdles of the 99 the traffic could be improved, on a route like Broadway im sure it would be worth it, infact a city like Vancouver should start looking at important roads and start setting up a system to be able to control their flow and monitor them.

[twoNeurons]

You could equip the buses with the ability to hold the next light for a set period of time. Or... buses when in range of an intersection and travelling over a set speed ( in motion ) would automatically signal the next light to go into a hold pattern if green. This alone would allow the buses to stop at their stops and not worry about not hitting the lights.

If it's manual, the driver gets a Stop Light Override Button which holds the green for a max time period. They can label it... the S.L.O.B.

"Quick! Hit the SLOB!"

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Is it possible to put more buses into service on the #99?

I was wondering if the 99 b-line should experiment with having two buses show up at Commercial to load up at the same time during rush hours. Since its hard to avoid the buses bunching up, why not just have a pair of buses starting each scheduled run 4 times per hour during the rush?

Whichever bus is full first will pull away to start the run, and the people who were missed will just shift over to the second bus thats already there. The second bus can start its run as soon as its full too.

The smart riders will simply jump on the second bus so they are more likely to get a seat.


Many times I've been at a B-Line stop when 2 or 3 B-Line buses show up. Everyone tries to cram on to the first bus - even though you can see the other buses pulling up behind, or just about to arrive when the lights change. More often than not, I'll take the 2nd or 3rd bus (which isn't so cram-packed full) and by the time everyone exits at Cambie for the C-Line I now have a seat. By the time we get to Commercial, the bus that I deliberately skipped is now several blocks behind me.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by cornholio

But even improving the efficiency(as a result capacity) of the 99 by say 10% the difference and value of that 10% is huge.

Improvement by 10% of the stop time at traffic lights is a pretty small portion of the overall time.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

What about re-instituting the bus-only lanes like the Olympics? At least during peak times.

If the buses are in fact passing up 4000 people/day, that is not acceptable.

Broadway already has 'Diamond Lanes' that are bus-exclusive during rush hour.

However, because Broadway has local buses (9 Broadway/Boundary, 17 UBC/Downtown) and the B-Line, the B-Line has to change lanes out of the Diamond Lanes (into regular traffic) to pass the local buses.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by cornholio

In the end there isnt much else they can do, well except get longer buses which I still dont understand why they didnt get double articulated buses on a route like Broadway. Another option is to tweak pedestrian crossing lights at cross intersections to better allow right turning vehicles to clear broadway, also dont understand why they haven't done that yet, and a few no right turn signs would also greatly improve the flow, capacity and efficiency of the 99 buses, and the 9 buses and the rest of the traffic along Broadway.

Double articulated buses aren't common and are very expensive and take up a lot of space on the roadway, which is already limited on a route like Broadway. Plus, a specific facility must be built at either the Vancouver or Burnaby Bus Operations Centre to handle these extra long buses. Plus, it isn't a long-term solution: Broadway needs segregated rapid transit.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by geoff's two cents

Don't forget the 4, 17 & 44. I've never seen the C-line as congested as the 99. The 99 is, bar none, the most consistently overcrowded and unpleasant transit experience I have had. Unlike the Expo line, which experiences similar levels of crowding at rush hour, over- (and often unsafe) congestion on the 99 is common throughout the day. Delays are also surprisingly common, due I'm sure to driver error or heavy traffic - which only augments the congestion issue when the long-awaited bus finally arrives.

So I'll renew my idea for a new UBC Non-Stop bus. This would have only two stops: Commercial Station and UBC Loop. At the hour and half-hour this UBC Non-Stop bus would pull up at its own stop (in front of Uncle Fatihs Pizza?), load up and start its run to UBC via 12th Ave and 10th Ave.

By getting away from Broadway traffic and bus stops, you could cut as much as 10 minutes off the run, and by taking the UBC-only commuters off the B-Line and local buses, there is more room on those buses.

[Millennium2002]

they tried that before... then pulled the service for unknown reasons (at least for me)

Essentially anything that could be done on the surface of Broadway has been done, except for signal overrides (which would just create a big traffic mess on both Broadway and cross streets) and LRT (which would create an even bigger mess). Rapid Transit is the only way to go now.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Improvement by 10% of the stop time at traffic lights is a pretty small portion of the overall time.

I thought there was a system that would hold the light green for a B-Line that was within a block of the intersection so it could get through the light before it changed.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Improvement by 10% of the stop time at traffic lights is a pretty small portion of the overall time.

I can tell you that 10% in the real world is no small portion. 10% is huge, and the more efficient and used the system will be the biger that 10% will be.

Obviously long term the only solution is rapid transit but thats not going to be built anytime soon and even if it is it will still take years. Until then you have to do what is necessary to get by and all these little bits add up to the route either functioning or not functioning. In this case I dont think the costs are too high for some pretty big benefits, the 99 looks to me to be run pretty poorly. Its when you make all these improvements and have the 99 runing at pretty much peak efficiency that it becomes unsustainable to increase the capacity. For now until rapid transit gets built they should get some competent people to get down and start making the 99 better, tackle the easy problems first and im sure they can make some big differences that not only will cost very little but might save money.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

they tried that before... then pulled the service for unknown reasons (at least for me)

Essentially anything that could be done on the surface of Broadway has been done, except for signal overrides (which would just create a big traffic mess on both Broadway and cross streets) and LRT (which would create an even bigger mess). Rapid Transit is the only way to go now.

I doubt anything much has been done. Most of the decisions i have seen implemented have been not very thought out and have been blanketed across the route. What they need to do is out their money where their mouth is and get down and look at each block one by one first, then start designing a real traffic plan for Broadway that takes everything in to account and then implement it. That means controled intersections, some no right turn signs, no right left signs, tweaked priority lights and turn lights and pedestrian lights, so on and so forth. When all these things are done properly and with the surrounding area and the biger picture in mind im sure they can make Broadway flow better overall for everyone(buses, cars, pedestrians).

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by deasine

Double articulated buses aren't common and are very expensive and take up a lot of space on the roadway, which is already limited on a route like Broadway. Plus, a specific facility must be built at either the Vancouver or Burnaby Bus Operations Centre to handle these extra long buses. Plus, it isn't a long-term solution: Broadway needs segregated rapid transit.

They would fit on Broadway well, thats not the problem. Storage would be a small issue but you cant tell me that they cant figure out a bandaid solution for their yard to make it all work. Even if they dont they can lease some land in EFC and store them there, they would have enough of them to probably make that a viable solution.

Source WIKIPEDIA

[Millennium2002]

Well, a band-aid solution is exactly that.... it's only a temporary fix that will only stall SkyTrain expansion which is needed anyway along the Broadway corridor. I say just build it now, rather than later.

We're not talking just about people on Broadway itself... there's lots of them already... but any system of transit must also consider knock-on effects if the route proves to be more popular and everyone else decides that it's the better alternative. This may seem like asking just for better bus frequencies along the east-west routes to UBC but really, most of the routes should be local and shouldn't be packed to the point that people that wants to travel a few stops to their homes can't get on.

Finally, any bi-articulated bus that gets purchased for use here will have to come directly from Europe (unless you want to wait for New Flyer to develop a design in three years, which is error-prone and still pricey), and they're not priced cheap... add to that customs and duties... and we might as well just extend Millennium Line to Cambie!

[twoNeurons]

What about branding the 84 from VCC as a B-Line. If we can speed up the trip to UBC from that station, would a lot of students going to UBC take that route? Get a high percentage of UBC students off the 99 and onto alternate routes.

That takes the load off the 99.