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  #1501  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2010, 12:58 AM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Originally Posted by Buckey View Post
I see a lot of pro CC folks.

so I amused myself on the lease idea, Class a office space is what $20/sq ft/yr - combined wh/office in burnside $10 or $12.

Lets ignore the $47 million upfront by the feds

$13,000,000 per year 120,000 square feet. Over $100 per square foot lease -
I need to see a lot more details. WE have a lot of other space and another new waterfront hotel coming and guess what a lot of conventions go to the hotels.

This does not pass the sniff test. 1,200 jobs most of which are min wage. Just doesnt do it for me spinoffs or not
The hotels and downtown businesses want the convention centre. Also the convention centre will have 309,000 square feet gross and part of the cost will be covered by the federal government (if not then I assume the NDP won't proceed). So the provincial and municipal government are paying the amount of $325 million dollars/25 years/309,000 square feet gross = $42.07 per square foot. Certainly it is not cheap but not as high as your numbers. EDITED: If the province and municipality pay over a period of 3 - 4 years during construction then the cost will only be ($46.7 million x 2 levels of government)/309,000 square feet/25 years = $12.09/square-foot for the province and HRM combined - this is similar to the Burnside rate that you quoted for Class A office space (on top of this there are maintenance charges as there would be with an office or industrial lease) However, they will be paying it in advance, so once it is built they will only have annual maintenance and facility upgrade charges. I think they should pay as construction proceeds - this will be the cheapest option. Then without the annual amortization payments the HRM and province will likely make money on the direct rental of the facility which can go towards the provincial debt.

The province should look at all possible ways to get the cost down but rejecting the convention centre would be a poor business choice since it will mean rejecting a strength of the province - the tourism sector. It will also show the rest of Canada and Halifax area businesses that the province is anti-development. Whoever opposes the convention centre should be able to come up with a better way of generating money for the residents of Nova Scotia. Otherwise their arguments are pointless.

Last edited by fenwick16; Oct 14, 2010 at 1:45 PM.
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  #1502  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2010, 1:23 AM
sdm sdm is offline
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If you look at the floor plans on the site of convention centre information it appears Trade Centre Limited is being provided office space in the office tower.
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  #1503  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2010, 1:24 AM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Originally Posted by Buckey View Post
yeah with a mortgage on a house you get to own it at the end. This developer won a sweet deal.
The developer didn't put a gun to the province's head. The province didn't want to pay anything until after the next election and that is why the province chose this deal. If you feel so strongly against the deal that the province is making then why not state that you prefer for the province to finance the convention centre the way that most provinces do - with incremental payments. You could also ask why the province doesn't want to own the convention centre when it is complete? (if the CTV source is accurate - it might not be)

Nova Scotia was once a prosperous province; a couple of Canada's largest banks started in Halifax. The province needs to think of legitimate ways to generate additional revenue - making money off its scenery it a good choice. If the province stands up to these anti-development groups then it will be a good step forward towards provincial self-sufficiency.
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  #1504  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2010, 1:41 AM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Originally Posted by sdm View Post
Why would you post such garbage? It doesn't take a genius to realize that most of these comments are coming from the same person. Just read them - they sound almost all identical.

PS: I am bored with this discussion. If these anti-development wingnuts can stop another project in Halifax then I think that there is little hope for Halifax.
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  #1505  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2010, 2:00 AM
sdm sdm is offline
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Originally Posted by fenwick16 View Post
Why would you post such garbage? It doesn't take a genius to realize that most of these comments are coming from the same person. Just read them - they sound almost all identical.

PS: I am bored with this discussion. If these anti-development wingnuts can stop another project in Halifax then I think that there is little hope for Halifax.
Fenwick the comments are from multi persons.

Besides, let the b.s. about the anti development wingnuts stopping another development. It will be the taxpayers that maybe responsible for the halt of this project, not the anti development people.

But for just one minute please think, why is there now close to 20 projects for downtown either approved or pending approval, yet not one besides the rental building (the vic) has started? Its because the market is in negative mode.

If you want to save downtown, which i for one want to, then take all your efforts and go after council. They are the ones who have killed downtown with there continued obstruction, costs (fees), and not paying attention to it (downtown).

People don't want to come downtown because its not close to there homes, and this comes from first hand, first contact knowledge. Public access and parking plain sucks.

The trade centre will not save downtown. The province would be far better served to decrease business taxes and HST to stimulate the economy. Maybe then some of these private developments would actually get built.
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  #1506  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2010, 2:00 AM
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Keith P. Keith P. is offline
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Originally Posted by Buckey View Post
This needs a fully independent review. A comment at the globe by a CA was very wise - he said get a CA firm with no ties and no vested interest to review this = get the AG to review it NOW not later. Lets get some independent eyes on this deal.
That was already done by Deloitte. For a smart guy I'm surprised you didn't know that.

All these armchair experts fascinate me.
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  #1507  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2010, 2:12 AM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Originally Posted by sdm View Post
Fenwick the comments are from multi persons.

Besides, let the b.s. about the anti development wingnuts stopping another development. It will be the taxpayers that maybe responsible for the halt of this project, not the anti development people.

But for just one minute please think, why is there now close to 20 projects for downtown either approved or pending approval, yet not one besides the rental building (the vic) has started? Its because the market is in negative mode.

If you want to save downtown, which i for one want to, then take all your efforts and go after council. They are the ones who have killed downtown with there continued obstruction, costs (fees), and not paying attention to it (downtown).

People don't want to come downtown because its not close to there homes, and this comes from first hand, first contact knowledge. Public access and parking plain sucks.

The trade centre will not save downtown. The province would be far better served to decrease business taxes and HST to stimulate the economy. Maybe then some of these private developments would actually get built.
Not understanding the importance of attracting people from outside the province shows that you are out of touch with the global economy. I actually do believe that this will help save the downtown. If it goes ahead, I will bet that you will see numerous other projects go ahead. It will send a signal to business leaders that years of obstructionism are coming to an end.

Quote:
Fenwick the comments are from multi persons.
How can you know this - are they all friends of yours? I am sure that one of them sounds like someone who is well known in the Halifax area as opposing everything (actually many of the comments sound like they are coming from this same person). I wonder if he has started posting on this forum? (I am not referring to you sdm, you are just out of touch with reality).
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  #1508  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2010, 2:26 AM
sdm sdm is offline
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Originally Posted by fenwick16 View Post
Not understanding the importance of attracting people from outside the province shows that you are out of touch with the global economy. I actually do believe that this will help save the downtown. If it goes ahead, I will bet that you will see numerous other projects go ahead. It will send a signal to business leaders that years of obstructionism are coming to an end.



How can you know this - are they all friends of yours? I am sure that one of them sounds like someone who is well known in the Halifax area as opposing everything (actually many of the comments sound like they are coming from this same person). I wonder if he has started posting on this forum? (I am not referring to you sd'm, you are just out of touch with reality).
I work in the industry Fenwick, and further this, i represent businesses looking for space (office) as a profession. So lets say i am closer to the action then you are. I deal with companies in the U.S., U.K. and Eurpoe, so please don't attempt to lecture me on whether or not i am in touch with the "global" economy.

Other developments may go, but don't be fooled in thinking that this one development will cause others to go. If anything it will delay many of them.

I am far from anti development, seeing how i am involved in no less then three developments at this moment.
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  #1509  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2010, 2:56 AM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Originally Posted by sdm View Post
I work in the industry Fenwick, and further this, i represent businesses looking for space (office) as a profession. So lets say i am closer to the action then you are. I deal with companies in the U.S., U.K. and Eurpoe, so please don't attempt to lecture me on whether or not i am in touch with the "global" economy.

Other developments may go, but don't be fooled in thinking that this one development will cause others to go. If anything it will delay many of them.

I am far from anti development, seeing how i am involved in no less then three developments at this moment.
How can you be so close to the action and be against something as fundamental as a convention centre? If you are in the development field (which I believe that you are, based on your posts) then maybe your real purpose is to oppose a competitor (Rank Inc.). At times, I get the feeling that this is what you are doing. You seem to be vehemently opposed to tax-payers money going towards a subsidy (your definition) on the Nova Centre but then you recommend a much more expensive proposal at the Cogswell Interchange.
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  #1510  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2010, 3:24 AM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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I just read the allnovascotia.com story. The Dexter government is considering the option of paying the costs as they occur (I would guess that there would probably be a downpayment of a certain amount and then incremental payments as the project reaches predetermined milestones). This seems like the best option to me. The province and municipality would save several million dollars in interest payments (the cost would then be $140 million without the interim financing charge of $19 million - the federal government won't cover any of the interim interest charges). I would also like to know if the province could then choose to own the centre at the end of 25 years (if not then shouldn't they get a better deal as with most leases?)

If the charges are paid as construction proceeds then it sounds like the federal government is committed to paying 1/3 of the construction cost of $140 million x 1/3 = $46.7 million dollars. Then the province and HRM would be required to pay $46.7 million each over the three year construction period.
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  #1511  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2010, 3:36 AM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
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Fenwick - you can be in development and not be pro convention centre. I have to be honest; the only reason I'm supporting it is because I don't believe that either side is giving full details and I have a personal dislike and distrust of anything related to the HT/save the whatever crowd. So frankly, anything that sends them into a tissy - oh yeah, I'm all for.

But if you had asked me a while back; despite my positive attitude towards downtown - I was squarely in the no column for a while. People have different opinions; that's life.

I spent the day getting beat up by industry and communities on a project I'm working on - I know I'm going the right way because no one is happy. It's a part of life and I respect sdm and any others for where they stand, regardless of whether they understand the business case or not. I'm certainly in no position to argue it - but let them have their opinion.

This may be supported by the province but let's face it; there are still a number of hurdles to go through - so it's not close to a done deal. I'd prefer to gloat that it goes ahead once all the hurdles are passed (no offense SDM, I just couldn't resist hehe).
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  #1512  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2010, 4:05 AM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Many people keep referring to the Nova Centre as a bunker. If being mainly underground is a stumbling block then why not build the convention centre portion partly at street level and partly over Grafton Street (instead of under). Then Grafton Street will remain open as a pedway and the Nova Centre won't be a bunker (The Philadelphia convention centre is built over a street). Of course the simplest solution for Rank Inc. would be to close of Grafton Street and build it above ground at street level.
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  #1513  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2010, 4:19 AM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Originally Posted by halifaxboyns View Post
But if you had asked me a while back; despite my positive attitude towards downtown - I was squarely in the no column for a while. People have different opinions; that's life.
There is hope that once Rank Inc. has the three levels of government on-board then changes can be made to the design. I read that Joe Ramia has stated that the design is preliminary and that they will get public input regarding the design. (I didn't look for the source link). PS: Maybe the office tower could even be converted to a condominium - it is close to Spring Garden Road and the downtown core, so it is in a good location for a condo. Then the current WTCC could continue to be used by the Trade Centre Ltd. for office sapce. I actually agree with sdm on that - if the office tower isn't required then why build it? It sounds to me as though the office tower isn't required in order for the Nova Centre to proceed.

Last edited by fenwick16; Oct 14, 2010 at 11:19 AM.
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  #1514  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2010, 11:32 AM
Buckey Buckey is offline
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Originally Posted by Keith P. View Post
That was already done by Deloitte. For a smart guy I'm surprised you didn't know that.

All these armchair experts fascinate me.
Lets not get carried away on the smart thing. I dont know much about politics or developments. IM still trying to get up to speed

I may flip flop on this when I see some meat. Right now a PDF presentation and a feasibility report and a lot of hype combined with a bunch of bad reporting on jobs numbers is nowhere near enough for me. IT all sounds to me like a New Card ad on the back page of the herald. I want to see all the fine print they line up the side in a #3 font of the disclaimers and the details on interest rates and downpayments etc.

I am by no means antidevelopment. WE need something in this area. Things are stagnant but putting out a product in a declining industry with stiff competition with questionable financing terms. It all just isnt sitting with me well. This has a CWG ring to it in that we are not being told the whole story on costs.
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  #1515  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2010, 11:45 AM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Originally Posted by Buckey View Post
I am by no means antidevelopment. WE need something in this area. Things are stagnant but putting out a product in a declining industry with stiff competition with questionable financing terms. It all just isnt sitting with me well. This has a CWG ring to it in that we are not being told the whole story on costs.
The fact that you term the convention business as a declining business indicates that you are basing your opinions on the anti-development rhetoric. I have been going to large conventions for many years and the only decline that I have seen is due to the current recession. By the time the convention centre is complete then the recession will be over. So now it a good time to build it, during a lull in activity. The opposition to the convention centre initially focused on its height, all the economic rhetoric against it was simply to put a halt to a tall development. So I consider it to be a lot of anti-development garbage.
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  #1516  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2010, 2:00 PM
sdm sdm is offline
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Catalyst or missed opportunity?
Convention centre a lightning rod for opinions
By CHRIS LAMBIE Business Editor
Thu, Oct 14 - 4:53 AM

A Rank Inc. drawing of what the convention centre may look like.






Halifax’s proposed convention centre was panned Wednesday as an underground bunker and praised as the catalyst for reviving a flagging downtown.

The provincial government’s decision to go ahead with funding its portion of the convention centre didn’t have the head of developer Rank Inc. planning a party.

"Really, there is no celebration," Joe Ramia said. "There is still lots to do."

The estimated $500-million project on the former Halifax Herald Ltd. property would also include a hotel and an office tower.

"I think this project will not only invigorate our city, but it is one that will act as a catalyst for further downtown development," Ramia said. "And it will spur economic growth in the whole province."

EllisDon Corp., which has an office in Halifax, would be the main contractor for the project, which is expected to take 3½ to four years to complete. Excavation could start as soon as next month and construction could begin by January.

Some critics are cringing over details of the proposal.

"It’s a big opportunity missed for the city," said Keith Tufts, a principal at Lydon Lynch Architects in Halifax.

"A purpose-built convention centre or a design that spoke more specifically to a convention centre and a cultural centrepiece for the city would be a better undertaking than what’s being proposed on that location, which is essentially a convention centre in a bunker."

Ramia said there’s room for the project’s design to be tweaked.

"What we have presented is very preliminary," he said. "We are looking forward to the opportunity of working with our stakeholders, our neighbours, and the community, the province and the city in defining the collective aspiration for this new facility.

"We have the best people in the convention business in the world working with us on this project."

Those include the U.S. firms Conventional Wisdom, of Florida, and Populous, of Missouri, as well as local designer Noel Fowler, who once worked for Lydon Lynch.

The region’s largest landlord was pleased with the province’s decision to back the convention centre.

"The convention centre for Halifax is generally a good thing," said Robert Richardson, vice-president and chief financial officer of Killam Properties Inc.

"Although we have properties in Halifax that may find competition in the new convention centre, I believe overall it’s better for the region and will attract more businesses so that everybody benefits."

Halifax should be "the jewel of Atlantic Canada," Richardson said. "This is a step in the right direction."

Others characterized it as a misstep.

"People saying it will spur development just don’t know what they’re talking about," said Armour Group chairman Ben McCrea, who built Halifax’s existing convention centre.

"Three hundred thousand square feet of new office space is part of this complex; (that’s) the absorption for at least five years."

McCrea also questioned whether the project would boost the province’s economy.

"If I was really smart I would find a home for investment outside Nova Scotia, because I think we’re going to pay for some of this," he said.

Bar baron Victor Syperek is of two minds on the proposed convention centre-hotel-office tower complex.

"The idea of kind of a focal point downtown is great, to have a new block of shops and things, because right now it’s pretty barren," said Syperek, who owns the Economy Shoe Shop complex and the Seahorse Tavern on Argyle Street.

"I do object to them blocking the view (from Citadel Hill) but it seems inevitable that’s going to happen. And also, if they turned the building sideways, it wouldn’t block the view so badly."

Construction is sure to hamper business on Argyle Street, Syperek said.

"It will be very disruptive for three years of construction," he said. "I’m just worried about the dust and the noise. They have such an enormous rock to move from there."

Syperek had a novel suggestion for what to do with the construction debris.

"They’re going to bring out millions of tonnes of rock and they have to dispose of it," he said. "Why don’t they build a breakwater in front of Bishop’s Landing and the Halifax waterfront and build a marina down there?"

The convention centre would help "kick-start the economy of downtown Halifax and Nova Scotia in general," said Luc Erjavec, the Atlantic vice-president of the Canadian Restaurant and Foodservices Association.

"It will help us create a vibrant downtown and help create a vibrant economy in Nova Scotia," he said. "We’re all for it."

( [email protected])
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  #1517  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2010, 2:02 PM
beyeas beyeas is offline
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I found McCrea's comments very interesting... he is trying as hard as he can to shoot this project in the foot to further his own interests.

He has taken up the language of calling it "Ramia's Bunker" in the press, and is actively campaigning against it. Certainly puts a dent in the armour (pun intended) of this being a catalyst for further development. He goes on about design etc, but the meat of what he is upset about is that if this goes ahead it makes Queen's landing office space and the Waterside less feasible, and that's really what he is pissed about.

It sucks because he is a respected and respected developer, and it is entirely possible he has very valid points (for example pertaining to the design), but the sheer venom that he spits when talks about this project makes me tune him out (like publicly calling it Ramia's Bunker and thereby giving defacto support to HTs arguments).
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  #1518  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2010, 2:02 PM
Buckey Buckey is offline
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au contraire

FENWICK - I am not an anti development wingnut and I do not take what they say at face value. TO throw me under the bus with them is a weak argument. I am very concerned with the details of this P3 lease deal. Its a damn P3 to a T and I dont like the terms as revealed. Have we not learned anything.

One need only look at the data. I am staring at the TCL financials as we speak 08/09 $6.6 Million in revs for the Trade center 05/06 $6 Million.

Attendance 05/06 142,600 and in 08/09 96,500

Obviously they are spending more But that brings me to my next point or trying to weed through the information and disinformation. On the TCL website I also have the RANK bid presentation. about 80% of the way through on the slide that is titled "Future potential"

That slide claims 08/09 fiscal they had 163,365 attendees and will get 221,000 by year 5. I see a lot of numbers thrown around and some add up and some don't. but many numbers including the jobs number were HYPED and not properly presented.
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  #1519  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2010, 2:21 PM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Buckey and sdm (thanks for posting the unbiased article above), I actually agree with about half of what each of you is saying.

These are the points that I agree with:

1) The province and HRM should finance this differently. If the province and municipality pay over a period of 3 - 4 years during construction then the cost will only be ($46.7 million x 2 levels of government)/309,000 square feet/25 years = $12.09/square-foot for the province and HRM combined - this is similar to the Burnside rate that you quoted for Class A office space (on top of this there are maintenance charges as there would be with any office or industrial lease). The province will save the $19 million in interim financing charges (this is like a layaway deal but they are paying through the nose for it). They will also be able to finance it at a lower interest rate than Rank Inc. can.
2) sdm's point about there being too much office space, and wasting available office space in the current WTCC. I agree this seems like a waste - why can't the Tarde Centre Inc. stay in the current WTCC? Ideally, instead of the office tower, Rank Inc. would build a condominium.
3) More of the convention centre should be built above ground - it will be cheaper to build and more user-friendly. Hopefully Rank Inc. can find a way to do this and also keep Grafton Street open as a pedestrian pathway.
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  #1520  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2010, 2:58 PM
Buckey Buckey is offline
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Originally Posted by fenwick16 View Post
Buckey and sdm (thanks for posting the unbiased article above), I actually agree with about half of what each of you is saying.
These are the points that I agree with:

1) The province and HRM should finance this differently. If the province and municipality pay over a period of 3 - 4 years during construction then the cost will only be ($46.7 million x 2 levels of government)/309,000 square feet/25 years = $12.09/square-foot for the province and HRM combined - this is similar to the Burnside rate that you quoted for Class A office space (on top of this there are maintenance charges as there would be with any office or industrial lease). The province will save the $19 million in interim financing charges (this is like a layaway deal but they are paying through the nose for it). They will also be able to finance it at a lower interest rate than Rank Inc. can.
2) sdm's point about there being too much office space, and wasting available office space in the current WTCC. I agree this seems like a waste - why can't the Tarde Centre Inc. stay in the current WTCC? Ideally, instead of the office tower, Rank Inc. would build a condominium.
3) More of the convention centre should be built above ground - it will be cheaper to build and more user-friendly. Hopefully Rank Inc. can find a way to do this and also keep Grafton Street open as a pedestrian pathway.
I Think this may hit more opposition at council that we expect due to the deal itself. Not The concept. so thank you for not putting me in the wingnut category. The tweed jacket did not fit and the birkenstocks would not of given me enough srch support and the beard would be itchy as well as PIPE tobacco is cancenegenic. Now there is sterotype
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