[Halifax] Nova Centre | 65-58-58 m | 16-15-14 fl | Completed

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by sdm

Very well put.

I don't know how many people attended the fusion event last evening, but i know personally there was something everyone should take away from that event.

For a city our size to have no less then sixteen projects either approved or pending approval is simple unheard of. I mean there are many larger cities who could only wish there was that much in the way of private development.

To all who say downtown is dying or dead is simply not the case. Yes things are slow; but that is the game in that real estate development is market driven and the market will dictate what happens (supply & demand).

What distrubs me is when people think that this proposal is the make or break for downtown's future, which is simply not the case.

Its not make or break... but it will definitely impact the municipal and provincial economy for the good.

[planarchy]

Originally Posted by sdm

To all who say downtown is dying or dead is simply not the case. Yes things are slow; but that is the game in that real estate development is market driven and the market will dictate what happens (supply & demand).

What distrubs me is when people think that this proposal is the make or break for downtown's future, which is simply not the case.

Exactly. Progress isn't measured by how much you build, it's what you do with it. There are other proposals that will have a bigger effect on the health and vitality of the central Halifax - anything on Barrington for example could make a huge difference to the whole area.

[sdm]

Originally Posted by planarchy

Exactly. Progress isn't measured by how much you build, it's what you do with it. There are other proposals that will have a bigger effect on the health and vitality of the central Halifax - anything on Barrington for example could make a huge difference to the whole area.

Well according to Dexter's article in the allnovascotia.com the new centre will "double as a financial services hub to attract new companies to the province".

Dexter further commented that the requirements of these tenants have increased the cost of the centre.

These statements are very troubling.

[someone123]

Sounds like they are leaning in favour of it.

I agree that it's harmful to look at this in black and white terms, although there is also a cost to waiting and doing nothing. I would have liked to see a little more openness and care at the beginning of the process. I definitely would have been much more excited about convention centre on the Cogswell lands.

It's very possible I had my dates wrong with the 5 year comment.. I thought the process of eliminating other options like Hardman was from 2008 or so, which would imply that the process began somewhat earlier. Not sure what sorts of studies preceded the RFP.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by sdm

Very well put.

I don't know how many people attended the fusion event last evening, but i know personally there was something everyone should take away from that event.

For a city our size to have no less then sixteen projects either approved or pending approval is simple unheard of. I mean there are many larger cities who could only wish there was that much in the way of private development.

To all who say downtown is dying or dead is simply not the case. Yes things are slow; but that is the game in that real estate development is market driven and the market will dictate what happens (supply & demand).

What distrubs me is when people think that this proposal is the make or break for downtown's future, which is simply not the case.

I don't think that you are really unbiased. You have been against this since the beginning. Previously you have been giving the impression that there was little hope for new office space in the downtown - now you are taking the opposite view.

Wasn't the Cogswell proposal the one whereby a new Metro Centre II would have been built at the Cogswell Interchange, the current Metro Centre I would have been demolished, and then replaced with a convention centre? The price tag was $300 million - I am sure this is why it wasn't chosen. On top of the greatly increased cost, it would have also meant at least a 3 year delay prior to the new convention centre construction starting, because a new Metro Centre would have to be built first. This was outlined in one of the reports.

Although there is criticism of this Nova proposal, there is no mention of the fact that the plan is to keep Grafton Street open. The Cogswell Interchange proposal would have torn down the Metro Centre and then kept that area as a super block for a convention centre. How can anyone criticize Rank for designing the convention centre in order to keep Grafton Street open when it would have been easier to turn it into a superblock such as where the Metro Centre is now?

The cost of $160 million is the one stated by Epstein. If Roger Taylor is correct then the real cost might be $160 million over 25 years. A cost of $2.28 million each for the municipality and province, and a lesser amount for the federal government for 25 years might work out to a total of $160 million but if you consider what you stated in an alternate light - if it were treated as a mortgage and paid as a lump sum up front then there would be interest payments. So $160 million over 25 years is far better than a lump sum of $160 million.

As worldlyhaligonian stated, a lease rate of $2.28 million/year each for the municipality and province sounds like a sweet deal. Certainly much better than paying $300 million up front for the Cogswell Interchange proposal.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by sdm

Well according to Dexter's article in the allnovascotia.com the new centre will "double as a financial services hub to attract new companies to the province".

Dexter further commented that the requirements of these tenants have increased the cost of the centre.

These statements are very troubling.

"Troubling" in that it sounds like he wants to proceed? My respect for Dexter has just gone up a notch. How is it troubling to want to encourage financial services?

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by planarchy

Exactly. Progress isn't measured by how much you build, it's what you do with it. There are other proposals that will have a bigger effect on the health and vitality of the central Halifax - anything on Barrington for example could make a huge difference to the whole area.

So why can't we have both? There isn't a large convention centre proposed for Barrington Street - so what is the connection? You want extravagant designs but low height - where have we heard that before? There is no practicality to such an argument.

[worldlyhaligonian]

I just want to see something built on this lot and the UG lot!

The south waterfront has come a long way and the whole of downtown would seem much more coherent and have better density if these core lots had something moderately tall on them.

[Empire]

It seems as though most people in NS elect a government that they feel will inject money into the economy. In rural NS the government can't spend fast enough on wharves and paving projects etc. No one seems to screech about paving a road from Ecum Secum to Timbuctu. When money is earmarked for Halifax however, we seem to be wasting taxpayers dollars. What did Nova Scotians get from the hunderds of millions sunk into Sydney Steel? Oh yes...the tar ponds.

12 million a year in property tax should take care of the HRM share of the convention centre debt load.

[Phalanx]

Originally Posted by spaustin

(...)

Check out what Ottawa is building for $170 million:

http://ottawaconventioncentre.com/
(...)

Hey, I walked by that a few times when I was in Ottawa this summer... no idea what it was until now. I would definitely prefer a more adventurous design for the proposed Halifax convention centre, but I suspect the fact that they're also shoehorning the hotel and office space into the same site, along with the viewplane compromises (not on height, but shape and orientation?) probably significantly hinder what they can do here.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by sdm

Well according to Dexter's article in the allnovascotia.com the new centre will "double as a financial services hub to attract new companies to the province".

Dexter further commented that the requirements of these tenants have increased the cost of the centre.

These statements are very troubling.

If the financial services industry isn't a good area to invest gov $$ what is? Halifax is the financial hub of the Atlantic provinces and a convention/financial services centre is exactly where the focus should be.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by Phalanx

Hey, I walked by that a few times when I was in Ottawa this summer... no idea what it was until now. I would definitely prefer a more adventurous design for the proposed Halifax convention centre, but I suspect the fact that they're also shoehorning the hotel and office space into the same site, along with the viewplane compromises (not on height, but shape and orientation?) probably significantly hinder what they can do here.

If you look at the trailer for the Ottawa convention centre you will see the first thing they point out is the view of the Rideau canal. The Hfx center could still use the top floors of the hotel as convention related space just to be able to market the view.

[worldlyhaligonian]

We also have the educated population (how many business programs, lol) to support financial services... unlike many other small cities.

[someone123]

The south waterfront has come a long way and the whole of downtown would seem much more coherent and have better density if these core lots had something moderately tall on them.

It is true that these are two really key blocks downtown. Add in the United Gulf towers and Sackville Street will start to look very coherent and finished.

Salter and the new library will also be tremendous.

[fenwick16]

I just read the article based on comments by Premier Dexter about the convention centre in the allnovascotia.com - he sounded very progressive and sounds like he wants the convention centre to proceed. The article indicated that he was "barely concealing his support for the concept". My opinion of Premier Dexter might have been wrong - maybe he really is progressive.

[sdm]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I don't think that you are really unbiased. You have been against this since the beginning. Previously you have been giving the impression that there was little hope for new office space in the downtown - now you are taking the opposite view.

Wasn't the Cogswell proposal the one whereby a new Metro Centre II would have been built at the Cogswell Interchange, the current Metro Centre I would have been demolished, and then replaced with a convention centre? The price tag was $300 million - I am sure this is why it wasn't chosen. On top of the greatly increased cost, it would have also meant at least a 3 year delay prior to the new convention centre construction starting, because a new Metro Centre would have to be built first. This was outlined in one of the reports.

Although there is criticism of this Nova proposal, there is no mention of the fact that the plan is to keep Argyle Street open. The Cogswell Interchange proposal would have torn down the Metro Centre and then kept that area as a super block for a convention centre. How can anyone criticize Rank for designing the convention centre in order to keep Argyle open when it would have been easier to turn it into a superblock such as where the Metro Centre is now?

The cost of $160 million is the one stated by Epstein. If Roger Taylor is correct then the real cost might be $160 million over 25 years. A cost of $2.28 million each for the municipality and province, and a lesser amount for the federal government for 25 years might work out to a total of $160 million but if you consider what you stated in an alternate light - if it were treated as a mortgage and paid as a lump sum up front then there would be interest payments. So $160 million over 25 years is far better than a lump sum of $160 million.

As worldlyhaligonian stated, a lease rate of $2.28 million/year each for the municipality and province sounds like a sweet deal. Certainly much better than paying $300 million up front for the Cogswell Interchange proposal.

First, yes i have been against this based on my knowledge.

I am not saying my view on downtown office development has changed. There is no market right now for a new building. Hence the statement of "the market will decide on what gets built"

and you've been caught in the misleading information of taylor in that the lease payment is only 2.28 million each. That is flatout wrong.

Besides, the cogswell interchange proposal would have been set up in the same fashion as here. But at least with the cogswell proposal we could be absorbing the cost to tear the interchange down, instead of spending without a yield 20 plus million to tear it down.

[Wishblade]

I don't know if this is a good way to wage public opinion, but judging from the comments on the CBC site this morning it seems since the details of the cost have been released, people have switched heavily towards opposing the convention centre. Just check out some of these comments and how many thumbs up they get:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/sto...on-centre-bid-public.html#socialcomments

Im really hoping this isnt how the general public really feels...

[halifaxboyns]

I wouldn't worry about the postings of people on CBC. I suspect Phil sent out an email to many of his followers and told them he'd be interviewed and so many of them decided to post stuff.

I'm guessing that public opinion is probably quite mixed, mainly over the issue of injecting public $. I would guess that if the public $ component were out of the mix; there would be an overwhelming support of the project simply because Nova Scotians wouldn't be on the hook for money.

I personally am prepared to move home and pay into whatever my share would be; my main concern is just get something built there.

If the project fails - well, then rank can make a decision to move forward with something else on the site or sell it. As to the comment about the City's development - I am really glad that there is over 10 projects on the go in the process. Now if we can just see them all built!

[Jstaleness]

Originally Posted by Wishblade

I don't know if this is a good way to wage public opinion, but judging from the comments on the CBC site this morning it seems since the details of the cost have been released, people have switched heavily towards opposing the convention centre. Just check out some of these comments and how many thumbs up they get:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/sto...on-centre-bid-public.html#socialcomments

Im really hoping this isnt how the general public really feels...

I just checked it out. Right now it's split pretty fairly. There are a lot of thumbs up for comments PRO Convention Centre. On the otherside of it I have to say that the people commenting on the private sector thing aren't exactly wrong. If it is such a huge money maker down the road then why aren't other companies jumping in there to get their name on it. What if a Hotel chain was approached and asked if they would front their portion "the hotel tower"? If they were told of the benefits of being at ground zero for the biggest conventions in the Atlantic Provinces, one would think they would jump all over that. Has the province actively gone out and pursued these companies? It would be a massive cost savings for both parties. Here's one! Sheraton was going to build at the airport but decided the market was too soft right now. Well maybe they should come back downtown and put that big red sign where the whole damn city can see it again. Including from the hill.

[halifaxboyns]

They wouldn't post my comment lol. I guess saying "would all you nay-sayers please stand up and now shut up" wasn't politically correct lol. I had to go back and repost something far more neutral lol.