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  #1421  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2010, 5:40 AM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
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Originally Posted by hfx_chris View Post
Re Fenwick's question on Shannon Park and transit, there is one bus route that goes there, however as somebody mentioned earlier (and I mentioned before that) there's always room for Metro Transit to step up with shuttle buses. They do it for the concerts on the Common, they do it for the air show, they do it for Exhibition Park. Plus with a site on the water, it always leaves open the possibility of some sort of water route.
Any location can have transit established to serve it; be it on the peninsula, Shannon, or Exhibition Park. Each site presents opportunities and constraints for transit. A good example, as pointed out earlier, is Shannon - you can set up a high speed ferry terminal and once the high speed ferries are up and running, there would be the potential for a direct connection from downtown and Bedford - potentially within walking distance. The same could be true of the RIM site near the 4 pad arena BUT would require buses to get you from the HS ferry to the site and back. The forum/windsor park site has established transit and parking that could be expanded, but local road capacity may be exceeded when an event is held.

I don't think anyone had proposed tearing down the Forum, but the thinking that Fenwick had started on and some of us added too was that if you already have the forum and it's parking site - if CFB Windsor could be closed and aquired (and potentially the Superstore and NS Power transformer site); then you could put a stadium at the CFB Windsor location and then expand the forum parking by means of a parkade and a ped bridge to get people across Young Street without impeding the lights. That lead to someone adding that the forum parking could then be used as a park and ride during the work week as well. So the idea was more about blending an creating a multi-use facility, but as some have pointed out (and probably correctly so); if we want this done fast - the land may not be available (if CFB windsor is still needed).

Shannon Park represents a significant enough opportunity site (still within what HRM defines as the 'regional core') that not only could a stadium become part of a major redevelopment scheme, but if done well, could create a whole new community of high and medium density, stadium and mixed use.

On the flip side, I can invission some interesting things with Exhibition Park as well; if it's as underused as people say. It would have the benefit of parking, but as I've pointed out before - part of HRM's issues with traffic is sticking to the model that car is king. Perhaps we need to think outside the box when it comes to parking and not build as much and build better transit connections instead (such as using the new articulated buses for special routes for events).
     
     
  #1422  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2010, 5:44 AM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
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My attempt to focus us...

Part of the difficulty we're having is focusing on trying to get a short list of sites. So perhaps the best way to get us back on track is to get the long list together and begin knocking off the ones that have 'obvious' flaws or major issues.

I'm taking this list from what I saw on Peter Kelly's facebook. So here they are, in no random order (and if I miss some, let's add them).
  1. Airport (somewhere near 102 highway)
  2. RIM site (Hammond Plains Road - near 4 pad arena)
  3. Shannon Park
  4. Dartmouth Crossing
  5. 102 highway rock quarry
  6. Exhibition Park
  7. CFB Windsor/Forum Shared Site
  8. Dartmouth Waterfront (infill I'm assuming)

Are there any others that I missed?
     
     
  #1423  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2010, 7:31 AM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Originally Posted by hfx_chris View Post
And as for the Forum land... well, I think many people on the peninsula would literally shit a brick (painful I know) at the thought of demolishing the Forum to put up a football stadium.
I actually meant in the area of the Halifax Forum - either next to the Atlantic Superstore or another space if available. I wouldn't want the Halifax Forum to be demolished.
     
     
  #1424  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2010, 7:42 AM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Originally Posted by halifaxboyns View Post
Part of the difficulty we're having is focusing on trying to get a short list of sites. So perhaps the best way to get us back on track is to get the long list together and begin knocking off the ones that have 'obvious' flaws or major issues.

I'm taking this list from what I saw on Peter Kelly's facebook. So here they are, in no random order (and if I miss some, let's add them).
  1. Airport (somewhere near 102 highway)
  2. RIM site (Hammond Plains Road - near 4 pad arena)
  3. Shannon Park
  4. Dartmouth Crossing
  5. 102 highway rock quarry
  6. Exhibition Park
  7. CFB Windsor/Forum Shared Site
  8. Dartmouth Waterfront (infill I'm assuming)

Are there any others that I missed?
I am starting to see that picking a location is a very difficult issue - the HRM is split in half by the harbor and this has serious effects on transit connections. If an eventual stadium were to be in Dartmouth then the Dartmouth Shopping Mall is another possibility because of the good transit connections.

We all have a problem in selecting a site because we cannot predict which sites will become available in the future (or that are immediately available that we don't know about).

I certainly hope the airport area well not be considered since many people from the Halifax/Dartmouth core will not travel that far.

As someone123 stated (I am paraphrasing), wherever the stadium is located then there will be traffic problems on game day (because of having thousands of cars in a small area trying to exit at about the same time). Having a number of smaller parking lots with more exits might actually alleviate some of this problem.

Last edited by fenwick16; Sep 29, 2010 at 8:10 AM.
     
     
  #1425  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2010, 10:56 AM
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Keith P. Keith P. is offline
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Originally Posted by halifaxboyns View Post
On the flip side, I can invission some interesting things with Exhibition Park as well; if it's as underused as people say. It would have the benefit of parking, but as I've pointed out before - part of HRM's issues with traffic is sticking to the model that car is king. Perhaps we need to think outside the box when it comes to parking and not build as much and build better transit connections instead (such as using the new articulated buses for special routes for events).
You fail to understand the issue. The very nature of stadiums of this sort -- and especially if you are thinking about pro football as a tenant -- is that there is a large parking lot required for the tailgating culture as much as for general parking. People come and set up large parties in the lot, c/w touch football games, volleyball, bbq, beer, etc. Now of course here in HRM there would likely be a brigade of bylaws attempting to prevent such behavior, but in the normal world this is what goes on FOR THOSE WHO WANT TO DO IT. OTOH, across the street you have the new Transit garage, so it is a given that there will be lots of transit options to the EP site as well. But building a parking lot is not an issue for the transit evangelists to get their knickers in a knot over.

The location selection is simple if you want to get the place built anytime in our lifetimes. This is the only logical and more importantly, PRACTICAL choice that satisfies that criteria.
     
     
  #1426  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2010, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fenwick16 View Post
I am starting to see that picking a location is a very difficult issue - the HRM is split in half by the harbor and this has serious effects on transit connections. If an eventual stadium were to be in Dartmouth then the Dartmouth Shopping Mall is another possibility because of the good transit connections.

We all have a problem in selecting a site because we cannot predict which sites will become available in the future (or that are immediately available that we don't know about).

I certainly hope the airport area well not be considered since many people from the Halifax/Dartmouth core will not travel that far.

As someone123 stated (I am paraphrasing), wherever the stadium is located then there will be traffic problems on game day (because of having thousands of cars in a small area trying to exit at about the same time). Having a number of smaller parking lots with more exits might actually alleviate some of this problem.
Winnipeg had a solution that I liked.......CanadInns Stadium is fairly close to the airport and in a fairly industrialized area but also pretty much next door to a large shopping centre (Polo Park ?)....anyways ....the traffic from cars parking there and exiting all at once was horrendous.....the people now mostly park at other locations and shuttle into the game....because any game day ticket is a free ticket for the bus ride....so in HRM one could imagine people filling MicMac Mall , Hfx Shopping Ctr, Bayers Lake, Dartmouth Crossing, Sackville parkNride etc etc and taking direct shuttles to the game.....
     
     
  #1427  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2010, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by halifaxboyns View Post
Part of the difficulty we're having is focusing on trying to get a short list of sites. So perhaps the best way to get us back on track is to get the long list together and begin knocking off the ones that have 'obvious' flaws or major issues.

I'm taking this list from what I saw on Peter Kelly's facebook. So here they are, in no random order (and if I miss some, let's add them).
  1. Airport (somewhere near 102 highway)
  2. RIM site (Hammond Plains Road - near 4 pad arena)
  3. Shannon Park
  4. Dartmouth Crossing
  5. 102 highway rock quarry
  6. Exhibition Park
  7. CFB Windsor/Forum Shared Site
  8. Dartmouth Waterfront (infill I'm assuming)

Are there any others that I missed?
I think there was some mention of the Mainland Commons on a few occassions...
     
     
  #1428  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2010, 11:08 AM
ATL Stadium ATL Stadium is offline
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Good Point

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith P. View Post
You fail to understand the issue. The very nature of stadiums of this sort -- and especially if you are thinking about pro football as a tenant -- is that there is a large parking lot required for the tailgating culture as much as for general parking. People come and set up large parties in the lot, c/w touch football games, volleyball, bbq, beer, etc. Now of course here in HRM there would likely be a brigade of bylaws attempting to prevent such behavior, but in the normal world this is what goes on FOR THOSE WHO WANT TO DO IT. OTOH, across the street you have the new Transit garage, so it is a given that there will be lots of transit options to the EP site as well. But building a parking lot is not an issue for the transit evangelists to get their knickers in a knot over.

The location selection is simple if you want to get the place built anytime in our lifetimes. This is the only logical and more importantly, PRACTICAL choice that satisfies that criteria.
Keith,
Thats a fair point.....I dont think people envision "NO" parking....just not building thousands of parking spots.
In Moncton last weekend I think it was handled poorly....I parked a fair distance away on a side street and walked past a good number of empty lots that they had roped off....and a large field area that could have been temp parking for the one day event....but that how we learn and make things better ....for the next time

Last edited by ATL Stadium; Sep 29, 2010 at 11:09 AM. Reason: typo
     
     
  #1429  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2010, 11:12 AM
ATL Stadium ATL Stadium is offline
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Mall? location?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fenwick16 View Post
I am starting to see that picking a location is a very difficult issue - the HRM is split in half by the harbor and this has serious effects on transit connections. If an eventual stadium were to be in Dartmouth then the Dartmouth Shopping Mall is another possibility because of the good transit connections.

We all have a problem in selecting a site because we cannot predict which sites will become available in the future (or that are immediately available that we don't know about).

I certainly hope the airport area well not be considered since many people from the Halifax/Dartmouth core will not travel that far.

As someone123 stated (I am paraphrasing), wherever the stadium is located then there will be traffic problems on game day (because of having thousands of cars in a small area trying to exit at about the same time). Having a number of smaller parking lots with more exits might actually alleviate some of this problem.
Fenwick....
What Dartmouth shopping area do you mean?

Dartmouth Shopping Ctr?
MicMacMall?
Dartmouth Crossing?
     
     
  #1430  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2010, 11:21 AM
ATL Stadium ATL Stadium is offline
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Parking Parking Parking

Quote:
Originally Posted by halifaxboyns View Post
Any location can have transit established to serve it; be it on the peninsula, Shannon, or Exhibition Park. Each site presents opportunities and constraints for transit. A good example, as pointed out earlier, is Shannon - you can set up a high speed ferry terminal and once the high speed ferries are up and running, there would be the potential for a direct connection from downtown and Bedford - potentially within walking distance. The same could be true of the RIM site near the 4 pad arena BUT would require buses to get you from the HS ferry to the site and back. The forum/windsor park site has established transit and parking that could be expanded, but local road capacity may be exceeded when an event is held.

I don't think anyone had proposed tearing down the Forum, but the thinking that Fenwick had started on and some of us added too was that if you already have the forum and it's parking site - if CFB Windsor could be closed and aquired (and potentially the Superstore and NS Power transformer site); then you could put a stadium at the CFB Windsor location and then expand the forum parking by means of a parkade and a ped bridge to get people across Young Street without impeding the lights. That lead to someone adding that the forum parking could then be used as a park and ride during the work week as well. So the idea was more about blending an creating a multi-use facility, but as some have pointed out (and probably correctly so); if we want this done fast - the land may not be available (if CFB windsor is still needed).

Shannon Park represents a significant enough opportunity site (still within what HRM defines as the 'regional core') that not only could a stadium become part of a major redevelopment scheme, but if done well, could create a whole new community of high and medium density, stadium and mixed use.

On the flip side, I can invission some interesting things with Exhibition Park as well; if it's as underused as people say. It would have the benefit of parking, but as I've pointed out before - part of HRM's issues with traffic is sticking to the model that car is king. Perhaps we need to think outside the box when it comes to parking and not build as much and build better transit connections instead (such as using the new articulated buses for special routes for events).
Are you Kidding Me!

Having been attending Forum events....I can relay to you right now....there is little existing parking at the forum....anyone that thinks accessing existing parking at the forum for a 25,000/30,000 seat stadium is a solution need to take another look......even when drawing 3000 or 4000 for a SMU hockey game the side streets are packed and the little lots are full....and Yeah I dont believe the SuperStore would be very pleased with ticket holders filling their parking lots on game day and having customers faced with no parking....

So there is NO existing sizable parking to be leveraged at that location. I am gonna have to call the Forum but....I'd guess maybe 150 spaces....
     
     
  #1431  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2010, 11:23 AM
ATL Stadium ATL Stadium is offline
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Blog Him

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Originally Posted by beyeas View Post
Do you have to be "friends" with him to comment?
I would love to add something positive but respectful, but to be honest I am not sure I want to be listed as a "friend" LOL
I think he has a blog site too, plus you can always email him on the HRM website
     
     
  #1432  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2010, 11:29 AM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Originally Posted by ATL Stadium View Post
Fenwick....
What Dartmouth shopping area do you mean?

Dartmouth Shopping Ctr?
MicMacMall?
Dartmouth Crossing?
I meant the Dartmouth Shopping Centre near the MacDonald Bridge. I know there isn't much space available but Penhorn was redeveloped so what is the situation at the Dartmouth Shopping Mall?
     
     
  #1433  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2010, 11:32 AM
ATL Stadium ATL Stadium is offline
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That is Fantastic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by michael_d40 View Post
Actually we here in Saint John have the Canada Games Stadium that was just refurbished for the Acadian Games. Not to mention a couple exhibition games were played there back in the 80s with the Winnipeg Blue Bombers and Montreal Alouettes with 11,463 attending. Not bad for so long ago and for a stadium only holding 8000.

Heres a blurb from the news the other day.

Now that the smoke has cleared from yesterday's CFL game in Moncton, the Chair of the City's Recreation and Leisure Committee wants officials to keep Saint John in mind.

Barry Ogden tells CHSJ News, why couldn't we host a game at the refurbished Canada Games Stadium. Ogden believes the artificial turf the Canada Games Stadium has gives us the advantage to hold all of the celebration in the same spot where Moncton has had to spread things around the hub city

A letter has been sent with the proposal to Mayor and Councillors along with the Destination and Marketing Board.
Thanks for that reminder.....and thoughts..But again for a viable franchise....these stadiums are about only a third of the required capacity....no owner is going to bring a team or game here.....unless you get like in Moncton the province to buy a game and take their chances on break even.
     
     
  #1434  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2010, 11:35 AM
ATL Stadium ATL Stadium is offline
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Dartouth Shopping Ctr...

Quote:
Originally Posted by fenwick16 View Post
I meant the Dartmouth Shopping Centre near the MacDonald Bridge. I know there isn't much space available but Penhorn was redeveloped so what is the situation at the Dartmouth Shopping Mall?
Small foot print of land....their is some parking across the street at the sportsplex.... but......not much and access is very tight all the way around and I'm sure any event would plug that bridge up solid....very narrow ....
     
     
  #1435  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2010, 11:42 AM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Originally Posted by ATL Stadium View Post
Are you Kidding Me!

Having been attending Forum events....I can relay to you right now....there is little existing parking at the forum....anyone that thinks accessing existing parking at the forum for a 25,000/30,000 seat stadium is a solution need to take another look......even when drawing 3000 or 4000 for a SMU hockey game the side streets are packed and the little lots are full....and Yeah I dont believe the SuperStore would be very pleased with ticket holders filling their parking lots on game day and having customers faced with no parking....

So there is NO existing sizable parking to be leveraged at that location. I am gonna have to call the Forum but....I'd guess maybe 150 spaces....
There could be shuttle buses from existing parking lots such as The West Mall and Scotia Square? Additional parking lots could be paved in areas such as near the MacKay Bridge ramps that are mostly unused.
     
     
  #1436  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2010, 11:54 AM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Originally Posted by ATL Stadium View Post
Small foot print of land....their is some parking across the street at the sportsplex.... but......not much and access is very tight all the way around and I'm sure any event would plug that bridge up solid....very narrow ....
If this is the case then any stadium in Dartmouth will clog the bridges up. Vice versa with a stadium in Halifax. The two bridges handle about 90,000 cars a day. There would only be 5000 - 10,000 cars per event (the more central the location then the fewer the number of cars). If the spectators are split equally between the two sides then only half would be crossing the bridges. So possibly 3000-4000 cars per large event would be crossing the bridges.

The Dartmouth Shopping Centre was just one suggestion - it was just one example of a central location with good bus transit. The Halifax Mainland Commons might have adequate bus transit. However, please remember that people will have to get there from Dartmouth also (so you can't use the clogging up the bridges argument).
     
     
  #1437  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2010, 11:55 AM
ATL Stadium ATL Stadium is offline
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Peninsula ......not in my thinking

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Originally Posted by fenwick16 View Post
Thank you halifaxboyns. I wanted to post my opinion but I don't use facebook at all (even though I have an account). I might still post a comment but have to wait to see if I get affirmed.

I have a question about Shannon Park - how many bus routes go there? I wonder if so many people think of Shannon Park because very few other sites have been mentioned in the past other than Shannon Park. It would be a great location if there was good mass transit going to it.

Still I can't see SMU wanting to hold the Vanier Cup at Shannon Park (maybe I am wrong). Having a stadium on the peninsula might also encourage Dalhousie University to obtain a CIAU team again. I actually like the West Mall area as much as the Halifax Forum area since it has good transit connections and seems to be a central location. The West Mall would also be close to Dalhousie if they get back into CIAU football.
Fenwick,
I just cant see a stadium of this size going on the peninsula....available land and access is the issue plus costs for sure....West End Mall/Hfx Shopping Ctr....is not gonna be torn down.....Windsor Park DND maybe a good piece of land....but a tangle of road work.....and no parking really......why do I hear that song "give me forty acres and I'll turn this rig around"

As for the Vanier....its a bidding war now....just like all the CIS events,,,and there is no guarantee of a home town team....gotta have numbers to make a bid for the Vanier work....so a new stadium would sure help those numbers work.... Just to up date you, DAL actually started a club team for football...so maybe in a few years they too will have a team....maybe the AUS will move the Uteck Bowl back to spur on a DAL team like they claim of the UdeM situation and they done even a club team yet......
     
     
  #1438  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2010, 12:01 PM
ATL Stadium ATL Stadium is offline
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Fenwick...yes I can

Quote:
Originally Posted by fenwick16 View Post
If this is the case then any stadium in Dartmouth will clog the bridges up. Vice versa with a stadium in Halifax. The two bridges handle about 90,000 cars a day. There would only be 5000 - 10,000 cars per event (the more central the location then the fewer the number of cars). If the spectators are split equally between the two sides then only half would be crossing the bridges. So possibly 3000-4000 cars per large event would be crossing the bridges.

The Dartmouth Shopping Centre was just one suggestion - it was just one example of a central location with good bus transit. The Halifax Mainland Commons might have adequate bus transit. However, please remember that people will have to get there from Dartmouth also (so you can't use the clogging up the bridges argument).
Fenwick

The shannon park site would be at much better locale....the MacDonald (old) bridge is a bottle neck, not served well by the roadways in and around it is basically a single feed on and off.........the McKay (new) is a totally different story.....TOTALLY.....the bridge has at least double the capacity and the roadways flows so much better.....basically highway access all the way around at speed.....
     
     
  #1439  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2010, 12:13 PM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Originally Posted by ATL Stadium View Post
Fenwick

The shannon park site would be at much better locale....the MacDonald (old) bridge is a bottle neck, not served well by the roadways in and around it is basically a single feed on and off.........the McKay (new) is a totally different story.....TOTALLY.....the bridge has at least double the capacity and the roadways flows so much better.....basically highway access all the way around at speed.....
I going to work now so I am signing out for the day, but all these discussions indicate to me that the HRM has to seriously think about focusing growth on one side of the harbour or the other. Otherwise splitting the population between two sides of a large harbour is going to cause additional infrastructure costs in the future (this is off-topic, it isn't directed just at the stadium issue).
     
     
  #1440  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2010, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michael_d40
Actually we here in Saint John have the Canada Games Stadium that was just refurbished for the Acadian Games. Not to mention a couple exhibition games were played there back in the 80s with the Winnipeg Blue Bombers and Montreal Alouettes with 11,463 attending. Not bad for so long ago and for a stadium only holding 8000.

Heres a blurb from the news the other day.

Now that the smoke has cleared from yesterday's CFL game in Moncton, the Chair of the City's Recreation and Leisure Committee wants officials to keep Saint John in mind.

Barry Ogden tells CHSJ News, why couldn't we host a game at the refurbished Canada Games Stadium. Ogden believes the artificial turf the Canada Games Stadium has gives us the advantage to hold all of the celebration in the same spot where Moncton has had to spread things around the hub city

A letter has been sent with the proposal to Mayor and Councillors along with the Destination and Marketing Board.
Interesting... I grew up not far from the Canada Games Stadium, and I went to that Blue Bombers game that he mentions. I remember they even had a couple of World Cup soccer qualifying warm up games or something of that soty (I remember seeing Italy-Canada, and Ivory Coast). It was too bad they basically stripped it back to nothing after the games.
     
     
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