Halifax Stadium Discussion

[joeyedm]

to see P Kelley on the news last night, gabbering on about how he had no idea, he looked like a deer caught in headlights. this man is a moron and needs to get kicked out of office in the next election.

[ATL Stadium]

Originally Posted by Jstaleness

So most of us agree that in Halifax there is no doubt that in order for the stadium to be accessible and green it needs to be built somewhere within the city itself. It does make since because like has been stated that this is where the Universities and bulk of the population are. The more central the better. Halifax isn't that big overall. A central stadium would be walk in fans for the most part wouldn't it? Especially if located in the old school grounds that has been mentioned. Of course the more central and populated the area is the more outcry from the public as far as noise levels are concerned. Games are loud but Concerts are even louder. How would we overcome that obstacle?
I plan on emailing my local councilor in regards to the stadium situation and the reasons why I think it is needed. Hopefully if enough of the population does the same then City Hall will have no choice but to entertain the thought of building one.

I think that statement is absolutely wrong! The bulk of the HRM population is NOT on the peninsula.....and if you use a business case people today are extremely mobile.....and do travel distances to shop, eat, and for ease of access....just look at the growth rate of shopping areas of Bayers Lake and Dartmouth Crossing......
I do not have the numbers have heard that district 23? Hammonds Plains area is the fastest growing and second in population is all of HRM.....

As for those that feel mass transportation is a major hurdle...you're absolutely correct.....but only if your talking peninsula Hfx. The roads are narrow, twisty, residential areas, little or no available cost effective sites, the university population is not there in the summer.......and the list is a lot longer....

[sdm]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

So taking a queue from Fenwick, I decided to do a sketch of Shannon Park with the stadium location. Before I go any further, I don't have a good drawing program at home beyond paint. So I appoligize for the crudeness of the design, I'm also going to repost it in the Shannon Park section for the design comments about the idea. I'll explain the concept more there.

But I wanted to get a sense of the how I could fit the stadium in and then try to make the area densify. Just one explanation - whatever isn't covered in colour remains as shown.

As you can see with the drawing, I've included the stadium as the centre feature and much of the park space remains as is. The school would redevelop as necessary. I wasn't fully aware of each building - so I may have elimated buildings which otherwise should remain? If so, please let me know. I've tried to keep a number of the PMQ's, but I'd like to see more high density.

Please note the ferry terminal and two parking lots (I vision as mainly parkades) and the ferry terminal would have a bus bay for transit arriving and departing.

The stadium site could encorporate additional parking as necessary and potential anything else, like say an aquarium. Despite the odd angle of the site for the stadium on the left side, based on fenwick's scale drawing I am pretty sure that the stadium he showed in his drawing at the Windsor site could easily fit here with additional parking, plaza areas etc. I capped heights (as indicated in stories) to provide the building an iconic view from the harbour and the bridge; although that height could be lowered if the building was shorter than 6 stories - the idea is to make sure that it would be an iconic building easily viewed from the harbour and the bridge.

I know there is a standard ratio for parking for things like retail centres and such. I believe one needs to figure this ratio out for stadium use.

Structure parking is very costly, roughly 15,000-18,000 per stall here in Halifax. Surface parking is cheaper, not as nice mind you, but the goal should be to keep cost down so that it might get built. i think that needs to be taken into accound when the site is selected.

[ATL Stadium]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

Careful on that assumption - because if I was asked, I would support a stadium but I may not necessairily buy tickets to a CFL game (mainly because I just never was a sports fan). But i'm a reasonable minded person to say that I might go if I had friends who went with me. Just nit picking though.

You are probably right about the commons folk though - I'd be interested to gage the reaction of Peggy Cameron and Bev Miller; see their thoughts? My fear is that with all the reaction happening so fast, this would end up in Burnside or Bayer's Lake. But, like Fenwick has pointed out - even if you put it at Shannon, you'd still have to build the transportation system to get people there since the site isn't well serviced. West End Mall and the Willow/Windsor Park sites have the benefit of existing transit now, which could be expanded.

Have we thought about any sites in Bedford? What about near Rim or am I drifting back into the greenfield issue again?

I have been talking about a quarry site along the 102 between kearney lake and Bayers Lake Shopping area..... I also believe the site needs to be visible and accessable.....to be successful....and 25/30,000 seats. If we can spend 55 million on a library ...why not a stadium.....?

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by ATL Stadium

You cant say we all agree by any stretch.....on anything other than build one.
I for one think a stadium needs to be off peninsula.....Shannon Pk, Kearney Lk Quarry area, Mainland Commons area....all make good sense for costs. Acquiring land on peninsula is costly and the traffic is simply horrific....plus the majority of the population does not live on peninsula HFx anymore....HRM is alot more than the bottle neck of the peninsula. Transportation issue on the old city peninsula are simply encumbers by geography......

No matter where it is, the location will be encumbered by geography. Just as the Shannon Park location will be ideal for people living in Dartmouth, the Halifax Mainland Commons will be ideal for people living in western Halifax. When I think of an ideal central location, I think of one that will be the best compromise for the greatest number of people. It is also important to take into account people do not drive or do not want to drive to events.

If an event is held at 7:00 PM off the peninsula then people will be in rush hour traffic traveling to an event. If it is on the peninsula then people coming from the outskirts will be going opposite to the traffic. People working on the peninsula could stay on the peninsula, have a meal and then go to an event. If they have a spouse who wants to meet them at the event, then the spouse could meet them on the peninsula by taking a bus and then they could travel home together. The traffic leading from the Toronto Rogers Centre to the outskirts at rush hour is a nightmare. However, it is rarely a problem when going into the Rogers Centre from the outskirts.

What is the solution to these debates about location? If hosting a major sporting event such as the FIFA World Women's Cup could provide an excuse for the federal government to provide funding towards a Halifax area stadium will a majority of people be able to agree on a location and show support for a stadium? The Commonwealth Games were derailed because there wasn't a sufficient show of support. If a majority of people can't agree on a location then there won't be sufficient support to ensure that a stadium can proceed. Halifax/Dartmouth are somewhat unique because the population is almost equally split on two sides of a harbour. Will it be possible for the two sides to work together to proceed with building a stadium?

[ATL Stadium]

Originally Posted by Jstaleness

I think that again poses problems getting the public out there. Sure the 102 is nearby but that Hammonds Plains Rd is pretty much the main artery out there. Also a very under serviced transit route.
Now if the Kearney Lake road could be expanded or another secondary hwy added from the 102 to Hammonds Plains road were added it might be quite easy. Not a bad area. 4 pad arena, RIM Stadium? Blackberry Bowl? maybe?

A stadium could have its own on/off ramp....right from the 102....or if in Dartmouth same thing.....off 118....

[ATL Stadium]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

No matter where it is, the location will be encumbered by geography. Just as the Shannon Park location will be ideal for people living in Dartmouth, the Halifax Mainland Commons will be ideal for people living in western Halifax. When I think of an ideal central location, I think of one that will be the best compromise for the greatest number of people. It is also important to take into account people do not drive or do not want to drive to events.

If an event is held at 7:00 PM off the peninsula then people will be in rush hour traffic traveling to an event. If it is on the peninsula then people coming from the outskirts will be going opposite to the traffic. People working on the peninsula could stay on the peninsula, have a meal and then go to an event. If they have a spouse who wants to meet them at the event, then the spouse could meet them on the peninsula by taking a bus and then they could travel home together. The traffic leading from the Toronto Rogers Centre to the outskirts at rush hour is a nightmare. However, it is rarely a problem when going into the Rogers Centre from the outskirts.

What is the solution to these debates about location? If hosting a major sporting event such as the FIFA World Women's Cup could provide an excuse for the federal government to provide funding towards a Halifax area stadium will a majority of people be able to agree on a location and show support for a stadium? The Commonwealth Games were derailed because there wasn't a sufficient show of support. If a majority of people can't agree on a location then there won't be sufficient support to ensure that a stadium can proceed. Halifax/Dartmouth are somewhat unique because the population is almost equally split on two sides of a harbour. Will it be possible for the two sides to work together to proceed with building a stadium?

Fenwick,
You hit a points that off base....

first I do think HRM will come together regardless of where its located.....

secondly the commonwealth games grew to such a huge expense it was unfair to ask the tax payers to carry the burden....so much more than just the stadium.....I think in the end it was right decision to stop the bid.

As for people working on the peninsula...and staying for the event...I'm one that heads back home to get the family.....home is not on the peninsula. Sure there are some single or student population that peninsula would be a convenient locale.....but not the majority of the HRM population....and the reality is most larger events will be nights and weekends....

[FuzzyWuz]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I really like the potential of this area. It has been a sports location since 1929 when the Halifax Forum was built on the adjacent block (I have good memories of going to watch the Nova Scotia Voyageurs win the Calder Cup at the Halifax Forum). It is also close to the Mayflower Curling Club.

I did a sketch of what I believe would be the minimum land requirement. If additional land could be attained at a reasonable cost then that would be a bonus. I believe that the stadium would fit by removing just the NSLC addition from the Superstore. Possibly the NSLC could be incorporated into the stadium. If incorporated into the stadium then I think that the NSLC store could remain open at its current location until the stadium was complete and then once the new stadium and NSLC store were completed, the old store could be demolished.

Parts of the electrical substation might have to be slightly moved but couldn't this substation power the stadium? I read about a stadium that installed solar panels on its roof and now supplies excess power to its electrical grid - could this be a potential source of revenue? I don't know if this would really be cost effective but it would be a good selling point - a stadium that produces power instead of just drawing power. In addition, rain water could be collected to supply water to the washroom toilets. Turbines such as at the Farmers Market could possibly be connected to the cantilever roof support poles.

Why not turn it 90 degrees and put a hotel on the corner where the gas station was planned? Then you can leave the NSLC where it is.

[ATL Stadium]

Originally Posted by Jstaleness

I think that again poses problems getting the public out there. Sure the 102 is nearby but that Hammonds Plains Rd is pretty much the main artery out there. Also a very under serviced transit route.
Now if the Kearney Lake road could be expanded or another secondary hwy added from the 102 to Hammonds Plains road were added it might be quite easy. Not a bad area. 4 pad arena, RIM Stadium? Blackberry Bowl? maybe?

Plus the Province has a plan to build a new highway close to there the 113 a short cut across to the 102 from the 103.....what a bonus....easy access....!!!
They could even make it a four lane circle around the stadium with several entrance exit points....

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by ATL Stadium

Fenwick,
You hit a points that off base....

first I do think HRM will come together regardless of where its located.....

secondly the commonwealth games grew to such a huge expense it was unfair to ask the tax payers to carry the burden....so much more than just the stadium.....I think in the end it was right decision to stop the bid.

As for people working on the peninsula...and staying for the event...I'm one that heads back home to get the family.....home is not on the peninsula. Sure there are some single or student population that peninsula would be a convenient locale.....but not the majority of the HRM population....and the reality is most larger events will be nights and weekends....

I agree with you regarding the Commonwealth Games.

The situation that you are referring to regarding rush hour traffic is one that is handled well by centrally located stadiums throughout North America. Most people live in the outskirts and travel to events held within the respective cities. If you are in Toronto, I would recommend that you attend a game at the Rogers Centre during the evening when highways leading out of Toronto are moving at a snail's pace. Going into the city is much easier. On the weekend I wouldn't think that it would be a problem in Halifax. The Halifax Commons on the peninsula was able to handle close to 50,000 for the Paul McCartney concert.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by FuzzyWuz

Why not turn it 90 degrees and put a hotel on the corner where the gas station was planned? Then you can leave the NSLC where it is.

That would actually take more space along Young Street (more of the Atlantic Superstore). As it is, the longest side of the stadium is along Windsor Street.

What do you think of the Cardiff City Stadium design? In some ways it is a more permanent and better sheltered version of the temporary BC Lion's facility (which is a very intimate stadium). Also there are no columns within the seating area to obstruct views. One desirable feature that should be incorporated would be room for expansion by adding an additional tier of seats.

[halifaxboyns]

While I agree that loads and seas of parking are the norm for a stadium now adays - I'm all about thinking outside the box. So if we could build a surface lot and then a parkade, I'd be all for it. But as pointed out, cost is a factor and I suspect that the fast track need will be that costs should be lower.

As to the issue of geography, unless you build it on a man made island in the middle of the basin (which would probably be about the close to centre in HRM geography you would get) the location is going to 'screw' someone. Peninsula Halifax would be bad for Dartmouth, not so bad for Bedford. Shannon Park would be okay for Bedford, great for Dartmouth and a hastle for Tantallon and western HRM.

Ultimately; we can propose anywhere we want - it's not going to be up to us where it goes, city council will make the decision. The best thing we can do is give them a list of suggestions and let them make the call.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

While I agree that loads and seas of parking are the norm for a stadium now adays - I'm all about thinking outside the box. So if we could build a surface lot and then a parkade, I'd be all for it. But as pointed out, cost is a factor and I suspect that the fast track need will be that costs should be lower.

As to the issue of geography, unless you build it on a man made island in the middle of the basin (which would probably be about the close to centre in HRM geography you would get) the location is going to 'screw' someone. Peninsula Halifax would be bad for Dartmouth, not so bad for Bedford. Shannon Park would be okay for Bedford, great for Dartmouth and a hastle for Tantallon and western HRM.

Ultimately; we can propose anywhere we want - it's not going to be up to us where it goes, city council will make the decision. The best thing we can do is give them a list of suggestions and let them make the call.

I agree with some of what you have stated. However, when you state that a stadium surrounded by seas of parking is the norm these days - I think you need to back that up with references. I feel that this is an important issue, so I am going to spend the next few days doing a compilation with Google map images and parking information for all the NFL stadiums and CFL stadiums so that we can have a better basis for discussing this issue. If someone could help me by doing the CFL stadium list then that would be appreciated - could someone volunteer? I will start with the NFL list. Regarding the CFL list - it would be good to include the new proposals also (Winnipeg and Regina proposals). We could also do an Excel Spreadsheet of the distance from each city downtown district to the respective NFL and CFL stadiums (this is somewhat subjective since the city downtown district needs to be defined in some concrete manner).

The reason that I consider this to be important issue is that there will likely be a budget for a stadium - say for example $70 million dollars that includes parking, infrastructure and the actual stadium. If 5000 - 6000 parking spots are required in an isolated location then even surface parking could account for possibly $20 million-$30 million dollars of the budget (more if a parking garage is built). If additional transit is required then that could be an additional few million dollars. If a dedicated highway off-ramp is required then that could be another $10 million. Then add land cost - land in an isolated location might be cheaper but if more is required for the dedicated surface parking then is there really a savings? When everything is added up, it might turn out that for the same budgeted amount of money a better stadium could be built in a central location (without dedicated parking) than on the outskirts.

If a stadium is mostly publicly funded then probably the municipality and province will decide on the location. However, I am sure that they would like to have input from people living in the municipality who will use the stadium. It will require support from residents if it is to proceed. There are many incidences of stadiums not being built or delayed for many years because a location couldn't be decided on. A current example is the Hamilton Pan-Am proposal which is on the verge of being scrapped because the owner of Tiger-Cats is demanding a stadium surrounded by 7000 parking spots.

[MaritimeCFLFan]

I think that any stadium site needs to be large enough to allow for 25,000 to 30,000 permanent seats while also capable of temporary expansion to a minimum of 45,000 seats. If Halifax were ever to get a CFL team they would need to be able to host a Grey Cup from time to time as it brings in a cash windfall for the host club as well as for the entire city. Building a stadium for Halifax needs to be done right the first time. The last thing we need is to build something too small which could handicap a CFL franchise in Halifax right from the start. The Grey Cup is a guaranteed money maker with the renewed popularity of the CFL and that cash is vital to any teams ability to thrive. This years Grey Cup in Edmonton sold out before the current season even started, that was a record. For the record Edmonton's Commonwealth Stadium has 60,000+ seats. I think we need to look only at those sites that can accomodate a stadium capable of what is needed. Halifax needs to dare to think big for once. Moncton has done it with great results. It's time Halifax steps up.

[MaritimeCFLFan]

Personally I am in favor of Willow Park for a stadium site but if it can't provide what is needed for a stadium in terms of size and expansion capability then I think I'd support Shannon Park as it appears there would be ample room for temporary expansion when needed. As far as travelling goes, I live 1 hour south of Halifax and I guarantee I'd travel to where ever the stadium gets built. I would buy season's tickets for a CFL team in HRM and I'd be sure to bring others with me.

[DigitalNinja]

I think that traveling to a stadium located anywhere within HRM is a moot point. Whether it is on the peninsula, or on the outskirts by hammonds plains, most people wont spend more than half an hour traveling to it. Most of the would spend less.

Lets take a look @ some of the population outside of the peninsula:
Middle sackville 18,000
Lower Sackville 35,000
Upper Sackville 1,200
BeaverBank 20,000
Hammonds Plains 20,000
Fall River 4,000
Waverly 1,500
Bedford 22,000
Wellington 2,000
Windsor junction 1,300
Dartmouth All regions 75,000 (approx, last census data i found was 2001 for 65,741)
Clayton Park, 23,000

Total Outside peninsula, It's about 220,000

On peninsula about 65,000 (Last census 58,025)

Now most of these numbers have been rounded, but it is still a huge difference.

IMO it's easier for clayton park to get to bedford/hammonds plains than Halifax, its better for anyone from Sackville and surrounding area to get to hammonds plains or anywhere else close by.
My point is that it is not a convenient location to build a stadium on the peninsula.
The best section would probably be out by bedford commons/hammonds plains/off the 118.
Yes that 65,000 people who have to traveling longer but the majority would not.
The point can be made that many people work in downtown which is true a lot do work on the peninsula. But most people get off at 4:30-5:00 some earlier. Most people would want to go home first, not stay in their work clothes and go right to a game. (Which they can do anyway they would just need to drive out of the city like normal.

[halifaxboyns]

I want to throw this question out, because I think fenwick had talked about it previously with a design he had shown earlier in the thread.

Would it not be more reasonable (to minimize costs) to build an expandable stadium? So say start out with similar seating size as Moncton (which if I remember is 10 to 15k? Am I right?) but then have the stadium expandable to an ultimate capacity in the 45k range?

Or; would it be easier to just say to heck with it and build it for a large size 30K and up say? My only concern and the reason I ask is because much like I pointed out earlier; even if half the population (200,000) was in favour of the stadium - the chances that all 200K would go to a game (or want too) wouldn't be at the same level. I'm not a sports fan, but I believe strongly in this project - so now you'd have 199,999 (if I lived in Halifax mind you).

Oh and just for the record, MacMahon Stadium here in Calgary actually doesn't have a huge sea of parking around it. I'm unsure of the actual number of stalls, but if I had to eye ball it from an aerial photo I'd guess in the range of 500 to 1000 cars around the stadium. That creates a MASSIVE parking problem on the adjacent commercial strip malls (across Crowchild and the one on 16 Ave NW and Uxbridge) and in the residential community around it. Part of the reason why the route the NW line took came here, was so that transit could be a more favourable option (that's the reason for the huge ped bridge over Crowchild). The Banff Trail station is only a 5 minute walk - it was also a developing hotel location (Motel Village).

Commonwealth stadium in Edmonton is in a somewhat similiar situation. It appears (from aerial maps) to have slightly more on site and adjacent parking, but it too has an LRT station near by (Stadium station - short walk through a tunnel to a walkway to the stadium). I'm guessing probably 1500 to 2000 cars.

But I should point out that both locations use their parking lots to support transit riders too. So the parking lots (for the most part) have dual purpose for event parking and for transit riders.

[ATL Stadium]

Originally Posted by MaritimeCFLFan

I think that any stadium site needs to be large enough to allow for 25,000 to 30,000 permanent seats while also capable of temporary expansion to a minimum of 45,000 seats. If Halifax were ever to get a CFL team they would need to be able to host a Grey Cup from time to time as it brings in a cash windfall for the host club as well as for the entire city. Building a stadium for Halifax needs to be done right the first time. The last thing we need is to build something too small which could handicap a CFL franchise in Halifax right from the start. The Grey Cup is a guaranteed money maker with the renewed popularity of the CFL and that cash is vital to any teams ability to thrive. This years Grey Cup in Edmonton sold out before the current season even started, that was a record. For the record Edmonton's Commonwealth Stadium has 60,000+ seats. I think we need to look only at those sites that can accomodate a stadium capable of what is needed. Halifax needs to dare to think big for once. Moncton has done it with great results. It's time Halifax steps up.

I think the CFL Commish opened a few eyes when he stated the CFL would only look at expansion to a stadium the could hold a min of 25000. That would leave Moncton out of the mix.....BIG HINT TO HRM (NS)
Every stadium needs to rent out its space....concerts, events, minor and university sports or regionals (like the Uteck Bowl GRRR!) and long term tenants like Pro Sports (CFL).

This could be the only window of opportunity for HRM

[ATL Stadium]

ok here is the real goods!

I took these numbers off the HRM website by district....keep in mind these are 2006 numbers...compiled by Stats Can.

Total 2006 population of HRM 372,858

Peninsula population 58,025

Dartmouth side of HRM 134,614
Halifax side (not peninsula) 180,219

There were at that time three areas experiencing growth over ten percent.
1) Clayton Park West 34.4% (2001 to 2006)
2) Hammonds Plains 22.1% (2001 to 2006)
3) Rockingham 10.6% (2001 to 2006)
All other areas were single digit grow or shrinking....

So..where are the ticket buying public located? Where are the families going to come from to attend events? Look above and draw your own conclusions.

[ATL Stadium]

Email, phone or talk in person....get this off the ground....
I sent a personal email to every councilor and the mayor.