DENVER | Transportation Thread

[Pizzuti]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

I think the Gold line was the one originally envisioned yes, but that was before the west corridor was extended to the taj mahal (was thought at that time to end at cold spring). The west corridor is so much closer now, although that rail ROW for the beer train might be too good to pass up. Of course, then we all know what'll happen. In typical RTD fashion, the line will end where the easy ROW ends, and we'll get a park-n-ride near coors, 1-2 miles outside of downtown golden. Sigh.

I wonder if in the future, individual municipalities or counties will be willing to put up their own funds to extend RTD lines into their priority areas. I could forsee Boulder wanting to add a second stop somewhere in town, Golden wanting the rail to arrive downtown, etc

[FrancoRey]

In the year 2035, maybe we'll see the Gold Line go all the way up the canyon to Black Hawk. Eh? Eh?

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Pizzuti

I wonder if in the future, individual municipalities or counties will be willing to put up their own funds to extend RTD lines into their priority areas.

"RTD...We'll Get You Close!"

Sort of like having the SCFD build a zoo, but then telling the city it has to buy the animals...

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by Pizzuti

I wonder if in the future, individual municipalities or counties will be willing to put up their own funds to extend RTD lines into their priority areas. I could forsee Boulder wanting to add a second stop somewhere in town, Golden wanting the rail to arrive downtown, etc

IIRC, Trancedo tried to secure some federal funding to extend the SE line when the FasTracks budget concerns first came out. RTD didn't like the idea. Of course, if the Dr. Evil ballot measures pass, we'll never have to worry about any municipality actually trying to build anything again that actually requires financing, or even money.

[Brainpathology]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

"RTD...We'll Get You Close!"

Shouldn't that be every Mass transit organizations' motto anyway?

[SnyderBock]

Right, as mass transit systems are not designed or intended to be door-to-door service (for the most part).

[Cirrus]

Not door-to-door, but they *should* be node-to-node. If they aren't getting you into the center of the node they're supposed to be serving, then they aren't doing their job properly. The highest densities should be closest to the transit station, with densities tapering off the further away you get. If you put your station in some industrial area a half mile away from the center of density, then you're not only dramatically limiting ridership, but also limiting the likelihood of successful transit oriented development.

[bunt_q]

BUMP. This thread has been fairly silent for a while. I do not recall seeing any discussion about recent developments with RTD related to how to finish Fastracks.

Here's the link to the PDF that staff presented to the RTD Board in November. It details what's been accomplished (West Corridor, Eagle P3 - East, Gold, and Boulder line, only as far as Westminster, all started), what money's left over to work with (not a lot), and most importantly, what is not currently funded. "Not currently funded" includes the SW extension, SE extension, I-225, North, and Boulder rail (past Westy). I'm not sure the status on the BRT - that's been following a somewhat different process.

Anyways, this is certainly worthy of discussion, because it's clear we still have a LONG ways to go (including, almost certainly, another election fight) before the transit system and pretty maps we all have floating in our heads become a reality.

http://www.rtd-fastracks.com/media/uploads/main/REVCompleting_the_Vision_WEB_VERSION_11-09-10_2.pdf

RTD is also seeking comments from folks on how to move forward -

http://www.fastracks-comments.com/public/comment.aspx?project=pw

[Cirrus]

I'm a little confused. The dedicated sales tax doesn't expire until these lines are built, right? So we're really talking about delays. Or did we use the tax to support bond repayments and our bonding capacity is maxed out?

What am I missing?

[bunt_q]

Actually, I think the problem has to do with the ballot language. The ballot language authorized a certain total dollar figure of bond debt (and the .6% rate increase was the vehicle to repay the bonds; the rate increase is set to expire when the authorized debt is finally repaid). The authorized debt, plus actual cash, added up to that magic $4.7 billion total for the project. The estimate is now almost $8 billion. So without another election to authorize higher debt (and another rate hike to pay the bonds), entire corridors are on the chopping block. It's a much bigger problem than most of us care to think about/discuss, I think... I am afraid of a tax hike election in this climate. But on the plus side (with the exception of the Gold Line, which is not a priority in my mind), the more marginal lines are the ones in trouble...

edit: I don't know whether actual bonding capacity is maxed out; whether the dedicated .6% is already fully leveraged to pay for the bonding that was authorized in the first place. I assume it is. And even if it's not, it won't be enough to cover the gap, and higher bonding still requires the election. I think, even with the PPPs, additional stimulus money, new starts money, value engineering, etc. that's been done, the gap is a shade over $2 billion to 2035.

[taylor23]

OK, I will jump in with what to do with the extra $300m RTD unexpectedly found under the seat cushion.

I live up North and would love to see the NW line built but given the amount to play with I would say it makes more sense to extend an existing line. Getting all the engineering done for all lines would also be great but the general public would have no idea. RTD need to improve their image if a new tax is to ever pass and opening new service or at least having it under construction shows that things are actually happening. Given the traffic along I225, the packed Nine Mile station, and the fact CDOT will already have it torn up I would extend that line as far as money allows.

Just don’t forget about those of us up North in the future and check under all the cushions..

[mr1138]

Originally Posted by Pizzuti

I wonder if in the future, individual municipalities or counties will be willing to put up their own funds to extend RTD lines into their priority areas. I could forsee Boulder wanting to add a second stop somewhere in town, Golden wanting the rail to arrive downtown, etc

This is interesting because you said it way back in September, but I just found something on the Westminster Center website that would suggest that such a scenario isn't too far off base, even for the short term. http://www.westminstercenter.us/News_87.htm

It makes perfect sense that a large development of this scale would want to/be able to raise its own capitol to ensure it has a rail stop. If the property owners on 14th street downtown pitched in $4 million simply because a "prettier" street improves business, then I can absolutely see how any business with an interest in the new Westminster Center project would want to see it open with a rail stop.

It appears that this plan put forth by Westminster in assumes that the Boulder DMU line itself is still getting built, because it describes 88th as an "unfunded station." It makes me wonder though... if the Boulder line ends up getting chopped, would it be inconceivable for Westy and the developers to pay for an extension of the line itself AS WELL as the station? I don't know anything about the breakdown of cost in terms of stations vs. track, but it seems as though the stations are by far the most expensive piece of the equation. I know that others on here know more about these costs than me, so if I'm completely off base correct me.

It seems as though if Westy can get the station funded hosever, RTD could at least pitch in part of that leftover $300 million to build tracks between 72nd and 88th. If they could justify electrifying this portion as well (saving money by not needing to invest in DMU technology at all), it could bode well for the long term future of the entire line by setting a precedent for electrification. Not to mention the fact that it might be easier to sell the value of an electric line all the way to Boulder in the future if it was already electrified as far as 88th.

[SnyderBock]

I believe the stretch between 72nd and 88th of the NW Corridor, is the stretch which BNSF railroad said they wouldn't allow an electrified line in their ROW. Correct me if I'm wrong?

FasTracks most recent cost estimate was $6.1 billion, down from a recession high of $7.9 billion estimated cost. However, estimate sales tax collections have dropped from $5.1 billion, to $4.1 billion now.

There is a 0.1% Stadium district tax which was used to build downtown stadiums, which is now expiring. The new talk is for RTD to seek voters to extend that 0.1% sales tax in 2011 elections, to boost FasTracks funding without actually creating a new tax yet. This alone would push complete system build-out from 2042, down to the year 2035 (with of course 60% completed by 2022).

Currently, 40% of FasTracks is under construction and due for completion by the end of 2016. So this extension of that existing 0.1% sales tax would get an additional 20% (60% total) of FasTracks build by 2022 and all of it (100%) by 2035.

Then the idea is RTD could go before voters again in 2012 and ask for a smaller tax increase than they would need otherwise, in order to expedite full build out to before 2022. Instead of having to ask for a 0.4% tax increase, if they can first secure the 0.1% stadium district tax extension, then in 2012 RTD would only need to ask voters for a 0.2 or 0.3% sales tax increase.

[Cirrus]

The ballot language authorized a certain total dollar figure of bond debt

Ah. That is a big problem, then. Whoops.

[wong21fr]

Here's a question:

The 2004 ballot language authorized a debt ceiling of somewhere around 3.47 billion that, upon reaching the limit, the tax would revert back to the pre-4006 .06% rate once all that debt was repaid. So, isn't the go-around to not hit that debt ceiling is to build up the cash account with sales tax receipts until each corridor can be paid in full without debt financing?

[bunt_q]

RTD to voters - not only are we going to make you keep paying that extra 0.6% indefinitely, but we're not even going to start building any corridors until 2020 when we can afford the whole thing, and won't finish until 2050.

On the bright side, every time we got our collective metro savings account up to a couple hundred million so we could start another corridor, we'd be in a position to request federal funds all over again.

Save first, get reward later? That's downright un-American.

[wong21fr]

^True, we 'mericans 'bout instant gratification.... but if the debt limit is never hit, couldn't RTD just keep on collecting the sales tax receipts and building additional corridors once a decade or so?

Hmmm, fiendish.

[Octavian]

Meanwhile, more cuts at union station.

http://unionstationadvocates.blogspot.com/2010/12/usa-needs-your-help.html

Could someone elaborate on the details of what is behind this?

[SnyderBock]

I don't know. You would think the fact that they just eliminated a $50 million parking garage (or are about to), would have more than compensated for any project cost fluctuations. Especially considering they also scaled back Kinetic plaza to nothing more than a glorified pedestrian bridge, cut a couple elevators from the design and two trav-o-lators, eliminated all private financing and risk, are building a canopy without a roof over most of it, put all the rail lines at-grade (when they were originally to be below-grade within project's current budget)... Did I miss anything? Oh, they opted for the cheapest use for the plaza space in front of the historic Union Station structure.

At this point, it's not really looking like a whole lot for nearly a half billion dollars. Far less than the Calatrava designed DIA station which will be built for near the same half billion dollar price range.

[wong21fr]

^You assume that Calatrava's design will actually come in at that cost.

I'm positive that the DIA expansion will be whittled down as well as the cost of the original vision steadily climbs up and up. Starchitects aren't exactly known for being cost conscious and sticking to a budget.