The Official Moncton, NB Project Thread

[Sunnybrae]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Congratulations mmmatt, many happy returns, hope you enjoy the Dominican (and your new life together)!

And re: the arena/events centre issue............federal money is almost certainly necessary for this. It's no different from federal funding for a convention centre or performing arts centre. This is a vital piece of civic infrastructure.

If the feds don't cough up, this won't happen and if it doesn't happen, downtown redevelopment and revitalization is a lost cause. We should be mindful of this and continue to promote the involvement of all three levels of government in this worthy cause!

If you want to get all three levels of government with this, put an anglophone university with the new arena... downtown.... a campus of UNB maybe? Think of the spin off with that. A thousand students or more down town plus faculty and staff? Keep the Agrena/Coliseum infastructure as a convention center and upgrade it. Build some hotels on the Berry Mills road so that visiting businessman and technicians can have somewhere to stay while visiting the existing and expanding Moncton Industrial Park. Those hotels would also be used in conjunction with the Agrena/Convention complex.

Yah I know, wishful thinking.................

I just keep thinking how many universities and colleges Halifax has...... WOW!

[Steelcowboy]

I hope to see more flights in and out of here...possibly some trans-atlantic stop overs, Winnipeg - Moncton - overseas and vice versa etc etc. There are many Air Cargo companies. I heard a rumour that one of the runways are suppose to get an extension to allow for larger cargo planes.

[curious]

Your right an University needs to open up downtown, it will bring more population to the downtown core. An art school would be beneficial, these students are usually more than willing to support downtown. This is from my experience in Halifax.

We need to support our downtown stores. Shopping in downtown is pathetic. Banana Republic should come downtown there moto is to help build downtown cores.

Originally Posted by Sunnybrae

If you want to get all three levels of government with this, put an anglophone university with the new arena... downtown.... a campus of UNB maybe? Think of the spin off with that. A thousand students or more down town plus faculty and staff? Keep the Agrena/Coliseum infastructure as a convention center and upgrade it. Build some hotels on the Berry Mills road so that visiting businessman and technicians can have somewhere to stay while visiting the existing and expanding Moncton Industrial Park. Those hotels would also be used in conjunction with the Agrena/Convention complex.

Yah I know, wishful thinking.................

I just keep thinking how many universities and colleges Halifax has...... WOW!

[curious]

what is happening to the Mapleton power centre. It doesn't appear to be making any progress?

[mylesmalley]

It's basically a white elephant. There hasn't been any movement at all in ages, it seems.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by curious

Your right an University needs to open up downtown, it will bring more population to the downtown core. An art school would be beneficial, these students are usually more than willing to support downtown. This is from my experience in Halifax.

While I agree that it is most unfortunate that there is not a full fledged campus of UNB in Moncton (there really should be to act as a counterbalance to U de M), I don't think it will ever happen.

When you look at the big picture, there are quite a few post secondary options in greater Moncton anyway.......This makes it difficult to justify another university.

- Universite de Moncton (francophone, 5000 students) - Fully comprehensive with graduate programs, a School of Law and a medical program (offered in conjunction with Universite de Sherbrooke).
- Crandall University (anglophone, 800 students) - faculties of arts, science, education and business. Crandall however is shackled by it's affiliation with the Convention of Atlantic Baptist Churches and thus is a fundamentalist institution. It isn't affiliated with the Atlantic Provinces Higher Education Commission and it's accreditation is not universally recognized. Crandall however is growing and within a few years will have five buildings on campus and a student body of 1200. Perhaps in the future it's reputation will improve.
- UNB Moncton (anglophone, 400 students) - yes Virginia, there is a UNB Moncton. It is a small health sciences campus located at The Moncton Hospital and you are able to get degrees in nursing and medical x-ray technology. Also at TMH is the Northumberland Family Practice Unit of Dalhousie University. There are 12 residents in family practice at the hospital and usually about 20 medical students/residents at any one time. With the new Dalhousie Medicine New Brunswick program operated out of UNBSJ, this number should swell to about 40 medical students at the Moncton UNB Campus.
- Mount Allison University (anglophone, 2500 students) - I know, I know, this university is located in Sackville but if you think of it, the university is only 20 minutes from the airport and 25 minutes from downtown. That's not much different than if you were living in North York and attending the downtown U of T campus. Mount Allison of couse is a highly regarded liberal undergraduate university which consistently ranks #1 in the MacLean's rankings. You can do some first year courses at home in Moncton and the university is affiliated with Moncton Flight College.

Add in NBCC Moncton and CCNB Dieppe with another couple of thousand students, and the city doesn't do too bad. Still, there is plenty of room for improvement on the anglophone side.

I would love to see an enhanced UNB presence in Moncton but the proximity of Mt A and the presence of Crandall makes that difficult. The real fly in the ointment is Crandall. Crandall's commitment to inclusiveness is questionable and it's fundamentalism is at least mildly objectionable. It is a very tough sell for many potential (non Baptist) anglophone Monctonian students.

Still, they have done a job of selling themselves to the provincial government as the anglophone university for stay at home Monctonians and they have garnered millions in government support. I think the government has fallen for this because it allows them to be seen to be addressing the anglophone educational needs in Moncton on the cheap.

The net result is that the francophone community has a well developed and coherent educational infrastructure in the city while the anglophone system seems rather disjointed and lacking focus. This has to be addressed.

The most ideal solution would be for Crandall to become a fully secular institution and a full partner in the MPHEC. With proper funding and proper accreditation, it could become a well respect small university (like Mt. A or St. Thomas) or perhaps it could become the Moncton campus of UNB. This would solve most of our problems.

As long as Crandall remains a small, narrow minded fundamentalist institution however, the greater Moncton anglophone community will continue to suffer.

my two cents...........

[Lrdevlop]

Originally Posted by Sunnybrae

I remember the days when Air Canada mainline use to serve Moncton.

About that, do you think AC mainline could ever come back in Moncton?

[Sunnybrae]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

While I agree that it is most unfortunate that there is not a full fledged campus of UNB in Moncton (there really should be to act as a counterbalance to U de M), I don't think it will ever happen.

When you look at the big picture, there are quite a few post secondary options in greater Moncton anyway.......This makes it difficult to justify another university.

- Universite de Moncton (francophone, 5000 students) - Fully comprehensive with graduate programs, a School of Law and a medical program (offered in conjunction with Universite de Sherbrooke).
- Crandall University (anglophone, 800 students) - faculties of arts, science, education and business. Crandall however is shackled by it's affiliation with the Convention of Atlantic Baptist Churches and thus is a fundamentalist institution. It isn't affiliated with the Atlantic Provinces Higher Education Commission and it's accreditation is not universally recognized. Crandall however is growing and within a few years will have five buildings on campus and a student body of 1200. Perhaps in the future it's reputation will improve.
- UNB Moncton (anglophone, 400 students) - yes Virginia, there is a UNB Moncton. It is a small health sciences campus located at The Moncton Hospital and you are able to get degrees in nursing and medical x-ray technology. Also at TMH is the Northumberland Family Practice Unit of Dalhousie University. There are 12 residents in family practice at the hospital and usually about 20 medical students/residents at any one time. With the new Dalhousie Medicine New Brunswick program operated out of UNBSJ, this number should swell to about 40 students at the Moncton UNB Campus.
- Mount Allison University (anglophone, 2500 students) - I know, I know, this university is located in Sackville but if you think of it, the university is only 20 minutes from the airport and 25 minutes from downtown. That's not much different than if you were living in North York and attending the downtown U of T campus. Mount Allison of couse is a highly regarded liberal undergraduate university which consistently ranks #1 in the MacLean's rankings. You can do many first year courses at home in Moncton and the university is affiliated with Moncton Flight College.

Add in NBCC Moncton and CCNB Dieppe with another couple of thousand students, and the city doesn't do too bad. Still, there is plenty of room for improvement on the anglophone side.

I would love to see an enhanced UNB presence in Moncton but the proximity of Mt A and the presence of Crandall makes that difficult. The real fly in the ointment is Crandall. Crandall's commitment to inclusiveness is questionable and it's fundamentalism is at least mildly objectionable. It is a very tough sell for many potential (non Baptist) anglophone Monctonian students.

Still, they have done a job of selling themselves as the anglophone university for stay at home Monctonians to the provincial government and they have garnered millions in government support. I think the government has fallen for this because it allows them to be seen to be addressing the anglophone educational needs in Moncton on the cheap.

The net result is that the francophone community has a well developed and coherent educational infrastructure in the city while the anglophone system seems rather disjointed and lacking focus. This has to be addressed.

The most ideal solution would be for Crandall to become a fully secular institution and a full partner in the MPHEC. With proper funding and proper accreditation, it could become a well respect small university (like Mt. A or St. Thomas) or perhaps it could become the Moncton campus of UNB. This would solve most of our problems.

As long as Crandall remains a small, narrow minded fundamentalist institution however, the greater Moncton anglophone community will continue to suffer.

my two cents...........

I totally get where your comming from MonctonRad. To simplify things, two specialty schools and a community college do not make a university for anglaphones in Moncton. It only takes the will of the polititians to create what is needed......... yah! As for Mt A...... its not in Moncton. It took me 35min to get there from the Brae but hay, if you can get to the airport from downtown in 5 minutes, you can be my cab driver. Maybe I drive slow. Kidding aside, maybe its just like the arena...... just makes too much sence.

[mylesmalley]

Considering the fiscal state the province is in, an English university in Moncton is a pipe dream at best. Setting up a proper full service institution could easily cost more than $100 million. Probably two or three times that. Not to mention you'd see a huge amount of duplicated services because of the two public colleges, Oultons and Eastern colleges, one private and one public university all within a short distance. It would be muuuuch more practical to expand english services at UdeM. Or, even moreso, turning Crandall into a fully secular institution.

As unpopular as it may be, it might be worth having the discussion about merging the public institutions in the city as well. UdeM and CCNB Dieppe could do a lot more together than they do. UNB Fredericton will probably realize some pretty good economies of scale, not to mention the less tangible benifits of having more students on campus with the opening of the new NBCC there.

I guess you have to keep the actual goal in mind. We don't need more universities. We need availability and access to post-secondary education in both official languages, and we need programs that prepare people for their chosen fields.

As for Halifax and their concentration of universities and colleges...they're in much the same boat as Fredericton. You could hire a lot more professors and pay for a lot more research if you didn't have a half-dozen administrations and duplicated bureaucracies wasting tuition and government dollars. Sorry STU.

[Sunnybrae]

Originally Posted by Lrdevlop

About that, do you think AC mainline could ever come back in Moncton?

Mainline will return someday. The E175 and E190 jets will begin to trickle in for the early morning departures and late night arrivals. These flights are for connecting traffic for international destinations mainly so Moncton needs more people flying international. The only reason we don't have AC mainline right now is Westjet and to a lesser extent, Continental. Porter is a niche carrier but I do admire them. As long as they can hold on to Billy Bishop airport slots, they will survive.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Sunnybrae

I totally get where your comming from MonctonRad. To simplify things, two specialty schools and a community college do not make a university for anglaphones in Moncton. It only takes the will of the polititians to create what is needed

My dream would be for Crandall to actually become UNB Moncton. There is lots of room for growth at their campus. You could easily justify an anglophone university in Moncton the size of UNBSJ. Crandall is already partway there. They could retain a second smaller health sciences campus located at the Moncton Hospital.

Originally Posted by Sunnybrae

As for Mt A...... its not in Moncton. It took me 35min to get there from the Brae but hay, if you can get to the airport from downtown in 5 minutes, you can be my cab driver. Maybe I drive slow. Kidding aside, maybe its just like the arena...... just makes too much sence.

Even though Sackville (and Shediac) are not formally part of the Moncton CMA, I personally treat them as such. So yes, as far as I'm concerned, Mt. A is a Moncton University.

Despite this, Mt. A functions more like a small elite national university rather than a "city" university for Moncton. Admission standards are very high and there is a very large proportion of students from other provinces (and countries). That's why Mt. A can't fulfill the needs of Moncton's anglophone population and this is why we need a comprehensive anglophone university in the city itself.

And, oh by the way, you must drive slowly! One of my sons goes to Mt. A so I'm back and forth quite a bit. We live way over in the Kingswood area of northwest Moncton and I can drive from my house to Sackville in 28 minutes. It is about 19 minutes from Sackville to the TCH/Rt 15 interchange by the airport. I know.......I've timed it.

[Sunnybrae]

Originally Posted by mylesmalley

Considering the fiscal state the province is in, an English university in Moncton is a pipe dream at best. Setting up a proper full service institution could easily cost more than $100 million. Probably two or three times that. Not to mention you'd see a huge amount of duplicated services because of the two public colleges, Oultons and Eastern colleges, one private and one public university all within a short distance. It would be muuuuch more practical to expand english services at UdeM. Or, even moreso, turning Crandall into a fully secular institution.

As unpopular as it may be, it might be worth having the discussion about merging the public institutions in the city as well. UdeM and CCNB Dieppe could do a lot more together than they do. UNB Fredericton will probably realize some pretty good economies of scale, not to mention the less tangible benifits of having more students on campus with the opening of the new NBCC there.

I guess you have to keep the actual goal in mind. We don't need more universities. We need availability and access to post-secondary education in both official languages, and we need programs that prepare people for their chosen fields.

As for Halifax and their concentration of universities and colleges...they're in much the same boat as Fredericton. You could hire a lot more professors and pay for a lot more research if you didn't have a half-dozen administrations and duplicated bureaucracies wasting tuition and government dollars. Sorry STU.

Hi mylesmalley,

This is an interesting discussion and your points are valid. I know your focusing on the economics and duplication of services and merging of educational institutions. I guess I was more focused on the "availability and access" part as well as building up our downtown core and merging it with an arena. I know my nieces and nephews wished they could have went to university here. We wouldn't have to start out with a full blown, full service university...... but we could start small like other schools do. Even with the fiscal state of the province we have this http://timestranscript.canadaeast.com/news/article/1094799. I know its not big dollars but kudos to U de M for expanding the university. They know how to sell the idea. Wouldn't the economic, social and civic benefits outweigh the costs? It works for them. As for Crandall, they fulfill a niche. If they get students and tuitions, I think the number was 800 students, why do they need to change?

I know none of this amounts to a hill of beans............. just sayin.....

[mylesmalley]

Education, like all social programs, is critically important. But we can't lose sight of the fact that we live in a world of financial constraints. If you have a finite budget, you therefore have to find the most effective ways of accomplishing your goals. Spending money on creating institutions is better spent on investing in existing ones and research. Because your bureaucratic overhead is essentially fixed, a dollar spent at a big school is probably more beneficial than 2 dollars spent at two smaller schools. Having a big French university system, and four public English universities in the province is more than enough.

Your point about Crandall is valid. Except that again, the province is paying a lot of money to duplicate services at a university. STU and UNB is even worse.

We seem to lose sight of what we're trying to accomplish in this province when we spend money. Instead of thinking about how we can better educate New Brunswickers, policy decisions seem to veer towards 'economic development'. How many jobs will the new school create? How much money will the new project inject into that small village? How big of a boon to downtown business would a Moncton English university be? But because we're spending money ineffectively, we're neither improving education, or the economy.


This is a really good topic for discussion. I'm afraid I'm exhausted and my points are probably not making any sense though. Time for bed!

[michael_d40]

Originally Posted by Lrdevlop

I don't think the Continental Moncton-Newark service would end soon because for now, almost each flights are full...

Just to have an idea (this is tuesday (16th) flight), one seat left! : https://www.continental.com/web/en-US/apps/travel/flightstatus/results.aspx?NFT=SM

What irony. I am on that flight. Heading off to Seattle that day.

[mylesmalley]

Who said anything about that Continental flight going away? I was under the impression it was being expanded to more than one a day for part of the year.

[JasonL-Moncton]

As far as the university thing goes...I'd love it if there was a 'full' university for anglophones here. I was excited with the changes at Crandall, but was let down with the opportunities there.

I have about two years of a degree completed from another university from a decade ago and wish to complete it by taking evening classes at a local university...oh wait, I can't...because our 'real' university is francophone. No local university has adequate correspondence courses, and unless I quit my job, sell my house and move...I can't finish.

Perhaps make the University of Moncton...bi-lingual? Every course offered in French also offer it in English. Think of all the students that leave Moncton to travel to other universities that would rather 'stay' here...thousands, probably tens of thousands. You could use some of the 'Vision Lands' to expand the campus in that direction and make it a true University of Moncton.

JL

[theshark]

what is the current maximum passengers the GMIA terminal was designed for??

[mylesmalley]

Last time I spoke with Rob Robichaud, I think he said around 600,000. But I may have misheard that.

He did figure that the airport's traffic could grow to around 850,000 before leveling off and growing organically. They're putting the big push on air cargo because that's where the biggest long-term growth potential is.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by mylesmalley

Last time I spoke with Rob Robichaud, I think he said around 600,000. But I may have misheard that.

He did figure that the airport's traffic could grow to around 850,000 before leveling off and growing organically. They're putting the big push on air cargo because that's where the biggest long-term growth potential is.

I remember reading something about this in the paper a few months age. I believe that what Robichaud said at that time was that the current terminal could handle a passenger volume of about 800,000 per year and that once annual volumes exceed 650,000 per year, they would start planning for a terminal expansion.

The GMIA currently has a volume of over 550,000 per year.
-------------------------------------------------------------

In terms of future growth, I agree that the greatest potential is with air cargo. We are nearly as busy as Halifax Stanfield now and given our central location, we could potentially outdo them.

For passenger growth, the options are more limited:
- There is some potential to increase the charter market and GMIA spokespeople have recently stated that Florida and Las Vegas "are on the radar" (whatever that means).
- I would really like to see more WestJet flights. They have good connections to western Canada. You never know, with the potential for oil and gas in Albert and Kings Counties, I could see a Moncton/Calgary route opening up.
- There really should be a flight to St. John's. We did have one with CanJet before they tanked and I think it was popular. This might be a option for Porter. ie- a St. John's/Moncton/Toronto route.
- The Moncton/Newark route on Continental is popular and successful. It would also be nice to have a direct flight to Boston. I'm sure that would work as well.

If this could all come to pass, we might be able to achieve passenger volumes of 700,000 per year or so...........

[MonctonRad]

Final thoughts regarding universities in Greater Moncton

Universite de Moncton

Leave it alone. The Acadians know what they are doing here. It has become a full fledged provincial comprehensive university with a full slate of doctoral and professional programs including degrees in law and medicine. There is not much more to be done here (aside from developing a CIAU football program).

Any thoughts of turning U de M into a "bilingual" university are pure fantasy. U de M (and the Dumont Hospital) are the great shining beacons on the hill as far as the Acadian population is concerned. They are cultural institutions that help to define them as a people. There is no chance in Hades that there will ever be anglophone programs and courses offered at U de M.

Mount Allison University

Leave it alone. Mount Allison is a tremendously successful institution in it's own right. It has decided to define itself as a small liberal arts undergraduate institution of impeccable quality - and that is exactly what it has become. It is consistently ranked as the best in all of Canada at what it does. It is a small university of national stature. It is to be commended.

By choosing this course however, Mount Allison cannot satisfy all the needs and aspirations of the anglophones of southeastern NB. The lack of any professional programs at the university in particular is quite regrettable.

Mount Allison is located about 10 minutes too far from the city to allow for convenient commuting for city residents, especially in the winter. The high admission standards of the university (and limited enrollment) also means that many city high school students will not have the ability to go there.

Crandall University and UNB Moncton

This is where the solution to the higher educational needs of anglophones in Moncton resides. Major work however needs to be done.

Crandall needs to drop it's affiliation with (and governance by) the Convention of Atlantic Baptist Churches. The fundamentalist religious environment of the university is not very enticing to many city students. The university also needs to become fully compliant with the standards and rules of the MPHEC. Only then will it be fully welcomed into the family of Maritime universities.

As far as I'm concerned, Crandall should be nationalized by the province of NB and should be amalgamated with the UNB health sciences campus at the Moncton Hospital to become a real UNB Moncton.

The newly amalgamated UNB Moncton should enhance and fully develop the range of undergraduate programs in the arts, sciences and business already existing at Crandall. In addition, existing professional programs in education (Crandall), health sciences and nursing (UNB Moncton) also need to be further developed. The Dalhousie Medicine New Brunswick program in Moncton would also have a home at UNB Moncton with training for 3rd & 4th year medical students and medical residents.

All of the above would only be enhancing what already exists and what is already planned at Crandall and the existing UNB Moncton. Further opportunities could be explored in developing select post graduate training programs.

An amalgamated UNB Moncton would never challenge UNB Fredericton but could develop a status similar to UNBSJ. I believe this is what the anglophone population of Moncton wants and is what it deserves. The building blocks are already here and the Crandall campus on Gorge Road has lots of room for expansion.

Any further thoughts anyone?