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  #3621  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2010, 7:10 PM
Richard Eade Richard Eade is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Franky View Post
"pushing the reset button" led to the currently planned boondoggle. This is more like damage control or repairing the filesystem after some idiot hit the reset button mid write. I wasn't a fan of the original plan, 4 years ago, but Larry ended up costing us all.
There should be a big question as to who cost the taxpayers the money: Was it the man who was elected to stop the N/S LRT project; or was it the Mayor and Council who pushed the previous plan through to a point that they thought couldn't be stopped right before an election? Was it right for the previous Council to create a condition which would cost huge sums of money for canceling the project and then put the plan to the electoral test?

Was it Larry O'Brien who cost the City the money if he was simply doing what he had been elected to do? The cost of canceling the project was well publicized in the media before the election. In fact, the reported costs were far in excess of what it actually cost in the end. The previous mayor, Chiarelli, even tried to use the cost of cancellation to his political benefit during the election. I think the public was aware that it would cost money to get out of the deal and voted in O’Brien any way.

I am curious as to how you attribute the cost of the cancellation exclusively to Larry O’Brien?
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  #3622  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2010, 2:11 AM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
There should be a big question as to who cost the taxpayers the money: Was it the man who was elected to stop the N/S LRT project; or was it the Mayor and Council who pushed the previous plan through to a point that they thought couldn't be stopped right before an election? Was it right for the previous Council to create a condition which would cost huge sums of money for canceling the project and then put the plan to the electoral test?

Was it Larry O'Brien who cost the City the money if he was simply doing what he had been elected to do? The cost of canceling the project was well publicized in the media before the election. In fact, the reported costs were far in excess of what it actually cost in the end. The previous mayor, Chiarelli, even tried to use the cost of cancellation to his political benefit during the election. I think the public was aware that it would cost money to get out of the deal and voted in O’Brien any way.

I am curious as to how you attribute the cost of the cancellation exclusively to Larry O’Brien?
As I recall, the N-S plan had been through numerous votes of City Council and had been approved at each point. The final plan was also approved by a substantial majority 4 months before the municipal election in 2006. I think that City Council had every right to do so given the history of the plan. Much of the opposition was from special interest groups and even then it came very late in the process. The public was disinterested until almost the last minute. The other opposition came from Alex Munter who was using the issue to bolster his election campaign. His solution would almost certainly have been equally problematic.

LRT was up for discussion in the 2006 election as a result of a letter written by Larry O'Brien to John Baird. What followed was some rather underhanded politics. For example, the release of a particular clause in the contract by John Baird designed to embarrass Bob Chiarelli eventhough that clause was a standard clause designed to protect the city in the event that funding got delayed. That clause was not designed to allow the city to back out as we clearly found out.

We should not fault the previous city council for the approval of the plan. As we are now learning, no plan is without its flaws, and the current plan has some major flaws in the public eyes, as did the previous one. The previous plan was designed to accomplish something meaningful within the funding available at the time. We were in no position to build a tunnel at that time.

During the election campaign, Larry O'Brien did not specifically campaign to press the reset button. All he said was that he planned for a 6 month reassessment of the plan. This amounted to the same thing as it turned out but the language presented made it sound a lot less risky to the electorate than it was. In any event, what really brought Larry O'Brien momentum was his zero means zero campaign slogan which was backed up by his success as a businessman. So much for slogans.

Before the vote that ended up pressing the reset button in December 2006, the city solicitors advised City Council of the risks of doing so. Despite this, they decided to press the reset button anyway. At that point, Larry O'Brien told the public not to worry and that he would be able to avoid a settlement with Siemens. Something that has proven false.

Given the fact that Larry O'Brien cast the deciding vote in both votes that ended up in pressing the reset button, he has to accept the most responsibility in this whole debacle. Of course, he should not be alone in shouldering the blame. A few City Councillors reversed their votes between July and December 2006 despite the legal risks so they should share some responsibility. John Baird's involvement is also not without fault.

Some have criticized Bob Chiarelli for not selling his plan effectively, but this was all complicated by the fact that the plan was already approved and shouldn't have been an election issue. It was supposed to have been a done deal. Trying to sell the approved plan would normally be a city responsibility and since this all fell within the election campaign, it did not occur as it would have favoured one particular candidate. By the time the whole issue blew up during the campaign, it was already too late.

I think we have to understand the history of the original plan to understand why it came about. Basically, it was designed as an upgrade to the already successful but temporary O-Train and because much of the line ran through green fields, it could be built relatively cheaply considering the length of the line. It was also built to serve the growing south community that lacked adequate road infrastructure. It was designed to prevent the need of a North-South Queensway. It was also designed as a learning tool for a more expensive subsequent east-west route, which needed more time in order develop proper routing as well as much more money. We are still waiting to develop that proper routing. Yes, there were flaws to the plan, but there were many merits. Just like the Transitways were very innovative when they began, the O-Train was going to be equally innovative because it was to be built as a community developed instead of the standard practice of waiting until development was already completed. Hence all the associated talk about smart growth that surrounded the North-South plan.

Because the current plan is compromise upon compromise and trying to appease the majority and a downtown business lobby instead of doing what needs to be done with the kind of money involved, we are likely to achieve very little. Basically, we are trying to remove as many buses off of downtown streets as possible and not much else. This is why the plan is so expensive and why the route is so short and why we had to use the cheapest route outside of downtown despite the enormous disruption that it is going to create.

As a result, the majority of the current city council is to blame for approving this plan. This is further true because the first phase could cripple the rest of the plan. If only the first phase gets built, the plan can only be said to be a dismal failure.

Although I am a big supporter of the idea of bringing LRT to Ottawa, I am an even bigger supporter of improving transit in Ottawa. As a result, I would be more supportive of Andy Haydon's bus tunnel idea than the current LRT plan, which I consider much too expensive for what it accomplishes and far too disruptive.

Last edited by lrt's friend; Sep 12, 2010 at 2:29 AM.
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  #3623  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2010, 12:48 PM
Richard Eade Richard Eade is offline
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I always find it interesting to hear another side of a story. Thank-you, lrt's friend, for your interpretation of events of the N/S LRT project.

I do see merits of the old project with its goals of expanding LRT use in the city, and using that to provide a service which would guide the development of Riverside South. I applaud those goals and had the N/S LRT not been extended to Barrhaven for purely political reasons; and either removed the cars from Albert/Slater (making a bus/LRT transit mall), or stopped at Bayview (or better, at Hurdman via the S-E Transitway) I think it would have been fine. Even planning for a downtown LRT tunnel and publicizing that the surface arrangement was an interim one for a maximum of five years while the tunnel was being built would have helped. But it is not the actual N/S LRT plan that I am discussing, but the political process that occurred near the end of Mayor Chiarelli’s term.

Does it not seem strange to you that things had gotten to the stage that it would cost the City a large penalty if the project was stopped, even though funding was not confirmed? (The reason for that funding being held back is another issue.) Take the current project as a comparison; the City bought and paid for the development work on the Functional Design but then didn’t even continue with the Preliminary Design until after the ‘Green Light’ letters of commitment were received from both the Province and the Feds.

Anyway, I do agree with you that the latest plan is not ideal either. As you point out, though, it would be a rare plan indeed that was considered good by all. Haydon’s plan for a bus tunnel also has flaws, but, like you, I think I would support it over the current plan but the implementation plan would need to be reviewed. I believe Haydon is planning for shallow tunnels under both Albert and Slater which would likely be built using the Cut & Cover method. This would cause three years of utter chaos for transit crossing the core. It would be possible to use a TBM for most of the tunneling, but it would be a bit deeper, cost more, and still require either great depth between the canal and the Rideau Centre or a challenging Cut & Cover operation under the Mackenzie King Bridge. There would also be the Transitway disruptions at the west and east portals.
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  #3624  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2010, 3:03 PM
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The more Haydon writes and speaks, the clearer it becomes that he doesn't have the faintest idea what he is talking about and that he makes up a lot of stuff.

He claims for example that Calgary has chosen BRT for its latest rapid transit expansion. I guess he hasn't heard of the West LRT, then. The only new "BRT" Calgary has was putting a few limited stop bus routes on the freeway from the far southeast of the city. Reading Calgary Transit's website on the subject, it's clear that they are having reliability problems with this so-called BRT system - which is hardly surprising since it has no dedicated lanes or busways or any of the other stuff we would associate with BRT. It's hardly grounds for claiming some kind of change of heart in Calgary, especially since Calgary has long used "BRT" as an interim measure.

http://www.calgarytransit.com/html/brt.html

I guess Andy also missed this part:

Quote:
What is BRT?

BRT is a distinctive, frequent, and limited stop bus service, similar to LRT, (the CTrain). BRT is being introduced in advance of future LRT lines. BRT will operate on regular roads with transit priority at traffic signals and other enhanced service features such as improved passenger waiting areas and larger shelters at some stops. Eventually, Calgary Transit will operate larger capacity, articulated buses on BRT routes.
[Emphasis mine]


Much of Andy's criticism of the LRT plan is based on its deep tunnel - a criticism many of us have made as well, whether we agree with the concept of a tunnel or not. But we, unlike him, don't ascribe that to the choice of LRT because we all know an LRT tunnel could be made a lot shallower as well. What's incredibly ironic is that the consultants who have come up with this deep tunnel plan are the successors to the consultants who came up with the Transitway in the first place. They proposed an engineering-heavy anti-passenger system back then so why should anyone expect any different now? He created this monster, so it's rich for him to be complaining about it now.
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  #3625  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2010, 6:23 PM
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Franky Franky is offline
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Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
There should be a big question as to who cost the taxpayers the money: Was it the man who was elected to stop the N/S LRT project; or was it the Mayor and Council who pushed the previous plan through to a point that they thought couldn't be stopped right before an election? Was it right for the previous Council to create a condition which would cost huge sums of money for canceling the project and then put the plan to the electoral test?

Was it Larry O'Brien who cost the City the money if he was simply doing what he had been elected to do? The cost of canceling the project was well publicized in the media before the election. In fact, the reported costs were far in excess of what it actually cost in the end. The previous mayor, Chiarelli, even tried to use the cost of cancellation to his political benefit during the election. I think the public was aware that it would cost money to get out of the deal and voted in O’Brien any way.

I am curious as to how you attribute the cost of the cancellation exclusively to Larry O’Brien?
Those are good points, but look at what's happening with the Lansdowne Live giveaway - same thing. Council is behind it and they are pulling out all the stops. Is that wrong?

As I recall, Baird and O'Brien managed to convince the city they could get out of the signed contracts when in fact, the city was successfully sued for $37(?) million plus other related expenses. The wasted time, money and effort and nothing to show for it.

It doesn't matter if other politicians warned us that Zero means Zero wasn't possible or that cancelling the rail project would cost. These people convinced enough people that they could do it. Federal backing and Business sense trumps a competitors word I suppose.

Either way the damage is done and we need to work towards an affordable and workable plan. If the city chooses O'Brien again, get ready to pay LOTS more taxes in the future and get a broken transit system in return.
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  #3626  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2010, 6:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
The more Haydon writes and speaks, the clearer it becomes that he doesn't have the faintest idea what he is talking about and that he makes up a lot of stuff.

He claims for example that Calgary has chosen BRT for its latest rapid transit expansion. I guess he hasn't heard of the West LRT, then. The only new "BRT" Calgary has was putting a few limited stop bus routes on the freeway from the far southeast of the city. Reading Calgary Transit's website on the subject, it's clear that they are having reliability problems with this so-called BRT system - which is hardly surprising since it has no dedicated lanes or busways or any of the other stuff we would associate with BRT. It's hardly grounds for claiming some kind of change of heart in Calgary, especially since Calgary has long used "BRT" as an interim measure.

http://www.calgarytransit.com/html/brt.html

I guess Andy also missed this part:



[Emphasis mine]


Much of Andy's criticism of the LRT plan is based on its deep tunnel - a criticism many of us have made as well, whether we agree with the concept of a tunnel or not. But we, unlike him, don't ascribe that to the choice of LRT because we all know an LRT tunnel could be made a lot shallower as well. What's incredibly ironic is that the consultants who have come up with this deep tunnel plan are the successors to the consultants who came up with the Transitway in the first place. They proposed an engineering-heavy anti-passenger system back then so why should anyone expect any different now? He created this monster, so it's rich for him to be complaining about it now.
Which article/quote are you referring to? I'm not sure (even if he's mistaken about Calgary's BRT) it means he doesn't know what he's talking about or that he could not preside(?) over building an adequate BRT system. By that measure, O'Brien is completely unqualified and should be dismissed immediately. At least Andrew Haydon is an engineer.

Also, I agree that the tunnel depth is at least partly the result of technology choice. The BRT tunnel, as was previously designed had a 6% grade I believe, something LRT designs rarely allow. In fact, I believe they extended the tunnel past Ottawa U. so that the rail line would not have to dip and rise, something buses do all the time with little consequence.
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  #3627  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2010, 6:54 PM
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  #3628  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2010, 8:39 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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Does it not seem strange to you that things had gotten to the stage that it would cost the City a large penalty if the project was stopped, even though funding was not confirmed? (The reason for that funding being held back is another issue.) Take the current project as a comparison; the City bought and paid for the development work on the Functional Design but then didn’t even continue with the Preliminary Design until after the ‘Green Light’ letters of commitment were received from both the Province and the Feds.
Now, I am going on memory on this, but I think the project had been green lighted by the province and federal government at all stages. It was only after the correspondence between O'Brien and Baird and the discovery of that funding clause that Baird insisted that the new City Council had time to confirm the project by another vote before the feds would confirm the funding. In other words, the feds were prepared to green light the plan with a second final vote by the new City Council. This was all highly irregular in view of the fact that the contract was already signed. The only point when the feds refused to green light the project is when the new City Council attempted to approve a modified version without the downtown link at the last minute.

Quote:
Anyway, I do agree with you that the latest plan is not ideal either. As you point out, though, it would be a rare plan indeed that was considered good by all. Haydon’s plan for a bus tunnel also has flaws, but, like you, I think I would support it over the current plan but the implementation plan would need to be reviewed. I believe Haydon is planning for shallow tunnels under both Albert and Slater which would likely be built using the Cut & Cover method. This would cause three years of utter chaos for transit crossing the core. It would be possible to use a TBM for most of the tunneling, but it would be a bit deeper, cost more, and still require either great depth between the canal and the Rideau Centre or a challenging Cut & Cover operation under the Mackenzie King Bridge. There would also be the Transitway disruptions at the west and east portals.
You are right about all of these concerns about a Haydon bus tunnel.
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  #3629  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2010, 8:46 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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He claims for example that Calgary has chosen BRT for its latest rapid transit expansion.
You are right that Andy is mistaken about what is happening in Calgary. All BRT projects are simply designed to develop ridership for future LRT.
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  #3630  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2010, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post


You are right about all of these concerns about a Haydon bus tunnel.
Haydon had mentioned using the NATM, not TBM to tunnel under the city. This may minimize disruptions without the depth required by the TBM.
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  #3631  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2010, 12:52 PM
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I also remember city council wanting to build the N/S LRT without the downtown section. But then, McGuinty said the funding is for the entire line, and the province wouldn't pay for a truncated line. Thus city council couldn't vote on removing the downtown section. There were two votes on this. The later one cancelled the entire project.
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  #3632  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2010, 1:02 PM
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An interesting argument. Should the city allow all day on street parking around suburban transit stations and/or major bus routes in suburban areas???? It could make a lot of sense in terms of resolving park-n-ride capacity issues.

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/Letter+Street+parking+limits+options+commuters/3516220/story.html

Quote:
Letter of the Day: Street-parking law limits options for commuters

I believe that the City of Ottawa is discouraging public transit use through a misguided parking bylaw which states that one cannot park on a residential street in excess of three hours between 7 a.m. and 7 p.m. If we are supposed to take transit, what should we do with our cars?

I became aware of this by-law for the first time when I received a $45 ticket on Parkway Drive near the Iris transit station (Click here to read the by-law).

I thought I was doing a good thing when I drove my son to daycare then parked and hopped on board an OC Transpo bus to commute to an office tower many kilometres away. I returned at 5:30 p.m. to find a ticket on my windshield.

I was baffled that I could be ticketed when I wasn’t impeding anyone, wasn’t blocking any driveways or fire hydrants and where there were no signs prohibiting parking. This is a wide street with plenty of room to park while allowing other drivers and pedestrians to get by.

There is a small park-and-ride lot at Baseline Station but extra fees are charged if you park there before 11 a. m. weekdays, which is exactly when I need to park and, besides, there is ample room on suburban roads that isn’t being used. As a taxpayer, I help to pay for the building and maintenance of those residential streets. I find it unreasonable that I got ticketed for parking there when I was using the bus.

Collecting money for such parking tickets may make good business for the City of Ottawa, but I think it sets a bad direction for public policy. The consequence of this bylaw means it is easier for me to drive my seven-passenger van, with only one person in it, all the way downtown rather than park closer to home and take public transit.

I am grateful that a sympathetic judge saw fit to reduce my fine, in light of my plea of “guilty with explanation.”

I wish I had law-and-order–like elocution skills so that I could have made my points in court! Instead, I wonder if I am the only resident with this concern? How do we get city hall to make a change?

DEBBIE VANDERBURGH

Ottawa
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  #3633  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2010, 1:18 PM
DubberDom DubberDom is offline
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I personally don't support her motion, how do we decide where 3 hour limit is to be removed? You can image the NIMBY outcry on that one (and rightfully so).

Her point about tax dollars going to build the Park and Ride is also flawed... our tax dollars also paid for the downtown city of Ottawa parkades, shouldn't that also be free? What about arenas?? etc...
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  #3634  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2010, 1:25 PM
kwoldtimer kwoldtimer is offline
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She seems to have missed the point that it is cheaper to pay the Park and Ride than to pay the ticket for illegal parking. Why do car drivers think that parking should be free, ever?
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  #3635  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2010, 4:09 PM
adam-machiavelli adam-machiavelli is offline
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I would support all-day on-street parking near park-and-ride lots as long as it's not free.
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  #3636  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2010, 4:18 PM
c_speed3108 c_speed3108 is offline
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Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
She seems to have missed the point that it is cheaper to pay the Park and Ride than to pay the ticket for illegal parking. Why do car drivers think that parking should be free, ever?
It is a suburban thing. Businesses in the suburbs typically provide parking for customers for free. It is what people are used and thanks to competition expect.

As for as free all day in street parking I really don't the harm in areas where there is low demand. Most of the parking time limits are generally to ensure a turnover over vehicles in commercial areas so you can find spots when you want to run into a business.

On suburban residential streets there hardly seems to be a good reason not allow all day parking.
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  #3637  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2010, 4:40 PM
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Acajack Acajack is offline
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I have been doing this "park-and-ride" thing on non-busy, non-signposted streets for many years here in Gatineau. I have checked and don't believe there is a time limit in Gatineau like there appears to be in Ottawa.

In any event, I have never gotten a ticket and even if I did, a $40 ticket would still be a bargain compared to the hundreds of free on-street parking days I have benefited from over the years...
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  #3638  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2010, 7:41 PM
Richard Eade Richard Eade is offline
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In general, the 'No parking longer than three hours' by-law is only enforced when there is a complaint. It is unlikely that the officer just happened to be on Parkway Drive watching her van for more than three hours. She may have thought that she was not adversely affecting anyone, but someone probably complained. There seems to be people in the city who feel that their tax dollars have paid for the roadway in front of their house and no-one else has the right to park there.
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  #3639  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2010, 7:50 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by Franky View Post
Elaborate.
BRT is batshit crazy.

A bus tunnel ("bunnel"?) is batshit crazy.

Build-first-convert-later is batshit crazy.

Exhibit A: The City of Ottawa.
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  #3640  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2010, 7:51 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Is "pushing the reset button" now a prerequisite for Ottawa Mayors and Mayoral Candidates?

Yes, along with the usual platitudes about "green space" and the injunction against questioning the Greenbelt.
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