Canadian Retail Thread

[SpongeG]

cool thanks for the info

[CondoKing]

Originally Posted by Yume-sama

Bingo. The majority of people don't *want* to go Downtown, and pay for downtown parking, and deal with the trouble of being downtown.

That, and, once you finish shopping at The Core... there's nowhere else to go, and it's a ghost town after 5PM.

I would have to agree with you on parking, it ridiculous. I think not every store has to be in downtown. I think it would be more substainable if retail areas were spread acorss the city and not populated into one central area.

[Rusty van Reddick]

Originally Posted by Yume-sama

Bingo. The majority of people don't *want* to go Downtown, and pay for downtown parking, and deal with the trouble of being downtown.

That, and, once you finish shopping at The Core... there's nowhere else to go, and it's a ghost town after 5PM.

Are you completely fucking blind? This is one of the most ignorant comments I've ever seen about Calgary on here.

What is the "trouble of being downtown" exactly?

Parking is a complete bargain on weekends and after 6. Then during the day you have a workforce of 120,000 who PACK The Core during lunch.

Downtown is light years from a "ghost town" after 5. There is INCREDIBLY more to do after shopping- the best restaurants in the city, Chinatown, films, plays. You're so wrong it's pathetic.

[SpongeG]

its true for lots of people - if i am shopping i would rather go to a suburban mall where i can get free parking

if calgary parking is more expensive than vancouver it would be more of a reason to go to chinook - i hate going into downtown vancouver since is parking is a nightmare and way too expensive - i would do the same in calgary - avoid it when it comes to shopping

[Me&You]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

its true for lots of people - if i am shopping i would rather go to a suburban mall where i can get free parking

if calgary parking is more expensive than vancouver it would be more of a reason to go to chinook - i hate going into downtown vancouver since is parking is a nightmare and way too expensive - i would do the same in calgary - avoid it when it comes to shopping

Parking at Chinook is generally a nightmare, so I prefer to pay a couple bucks to avoid the headache. That, and the Core is closer to my home than Chinook. I honestly can't remember the last time I was at Chinook for something I could have also got at the Core.

Plus, the stores we're discussing specifically cater to a demographic that is either already working DT, or don't mind spending a few extra dollars when their shopping at a store with $40 socks! Free parking isn't an issue.

This whole tangent started with Miketoronto's silly bitching about Harry Rosen not needing a second store at Chinook. So many things wrong with that, that I don't even know where to start. For one, the previous DT location was busy enough that the folks at Harry Rosen can obviously justify a huge new expansion. Along with that, they see the Calgary market as being such that their new DT location isn't sufficient in meeting demand. It's not like they're leasing space in Chinook just for fun - they know what they're doing! A second Chinook location will in no way "undermine" the DT store, but simply serve a different market segment. If Harry Rosen had pulled out of the Core to move to Chinook, I can see the point. But they're simply opening a second location and I honestly can't see how anyone could have an issue with that

Suburban malls have their place. Downtown malls have their place. As long as the Holt Renfrews / Harry Rosens / Brooks Brothers etc operate downtown, I don't care what Chinook gets...

[niwell]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

And that is the problem. Downtown should have the highest sales, etc. Not Chinook. What that says is that downtown is second best to Chinook and is not capturing the amount of shoppers that it could.

Please don't make blanket statements about cities you've never been to. Unless of course you've become an expert in corporate retail locational analysis (doubt it). Because I'm pretty sure people who actually are trained in that determined that Chinook is a pretty good location, and probably more central to the majority of Calgarians. If the downtown location was closed in favour of Chinook you may have a point, but it wasn't. And you don't.

[SpongeG]

well vancouver's harry rosen stores are both in malls pacific centre and oakridge centre - i guess miketoronto would disaprove - i think there are only 2 of em here and always empty other than pushy sales people

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by niwell

Please don't make blanket statements about cities you've never been to. Unless of course you've become an expert in corporate retail locational analysis (doubt it). Because I'm pretty sure people who actually are trained in that determined that Chinook is a pretty good location, and probably more central to the majority of Calgarians. If the downtown location was closed in favour of Chinook you may have a point, but it wasn't. And you don't.

By opening branch locations it is one less reason to go downtown. Why do you think Indianoplis was upset when Nordstromes decided to open a branch store at a suburban mall? Because they knew that downtown no longer had places that were different from the burbs and that means less people coming downtown.

This is the problem with North America with needing to have the same stores every couple km.

Chinook should not even have been built. The downtown area could have handled the shoppers just fine.

If you guys are fine with what is going on fine. Its not my downtown. But don't complain when people go to Calgary and complain the downtown is dead on weekends or has a very very very light crowd compared to the often packed Chinook Centre.
For the size Calgary is those destination stores should only be downtown.
Ottawa is like that. You want Harry Rosen, you gotta go to downtown Ottawa, etc.

These destination stores are what makes a downtown, and when you have too many of them in the suburbs it undermines the downtown as a metropolitan shopping destination.
The fact that other destination stores like ZARA and Tiffany have choosen Chinook over downtown further undermines downtown, as Calgary is the only Canadian city that these two famous stores have opened in the suburbs over downtown.

[AuxTown]

If you guys are fine with what is going on fine. Its not my downtown. But don't complain when people go to Calgary and complain the downtown is dead on weekends or has a very very very light crowd compared to the often packed Chinook Centre.
For the size Calgary is those destination stores should only be downtown.
Ottawa is like that. You want Harry Rosen, you gotta go to downtown Ottawa, etc.

Ottawa is a little bit different though. We have some terrible sprawl issues, but on the whole, most of the money in Ottawa has stayed in central neighbourhoods inside the Greenbelt (i.e. Westboro, Glebe, New Edinburgh, Rockcliffe). For most of them, downtown is still their shopping destination (mostly Rideau Centre but also Holt Renfrew and some trendy areas in the market). The image I have of Calgary is of thousands of 1/2 acre estates far out in the burbs, making suburban malls the obvious location for such destination stores. I'm not saying it's good or bad and, as you mentioned, it is only going to add to the problem of a 9-5 downtown that ALL Canadian cities face (even TO).

[Plus15]

Tiffany is not opening a store at Chinook. Toronto is the only city in Canada to undermine its downtown Tiffany with a suburban store at Yorkdale. Zara is in Edmonton with 2 locations, neither downtown. Plus, its not 1910. These are facts.

[Me&You]

Originally Posted by O-Town Hockey

Ottawa is a little bit different though. We have some terrible sprawl issues, but on the whole, most of the money in Ottawa has stayed in central neighbourhoods inside the Greenbelt (i.e. Westboro, Glebe, New Edinburgh, Rockcliffe). For most of them, downtown is still their shopping destination (mostly Rideau Centre but also Holt Renfrew and some trendy areas in the market). The image I have of Calgary is of thousands of 1/2 acre estates far out in the burbs, making suburban malls the obvious location for such destination stores. I'm not saying it's good or bad and, as you mentioned, it is only going to add to the problem of a 9-5 downtown that ALL Canadian cities face (even TO).

Calgary isn't really much different. The inner city is absolutely stacked with wealth in communities such as Mount Royal, Elbow Park, Roxboro, Elboya, Brittania, Hillhurst and million-dollar-plus infills in Altadore, South Calgary, Sunnyside, etc. People in these are more likely to shop at the Core over Chinook or other suburban malls for several reasons. For one, many of them likely already work DT. Also, the DT has the type of retail and services that best caters to this wealthy group, whether it's Holt Renfrew / Harry Rosen / Brooks Brothers or Bang & Olufson, the Cellar, or restaurants such as Chop, Rush or Centinni (among many others). These people don't go to Chinook because it's less convenient, doesn't have the stores they shop and and they couldn't care less about parking charges.

Simply put, there is enough of a market to warrant a second Harry Rosen in Calgary. The Core location is their local flagship and carries many lines that won't be available at their Chinook location. The opening of the second store will in no way impact their Core location. If anything, it will expose new customers to Harry Rosen that may in turn go to the Core location for the "full meal deal" once they've tried out the "junior" version at Chinook.

[Rusty van Reddick]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Chinook should not even have been built. The downtown area could have handled the shoppers just fine.

If you guys are fine with what is going on fine. Its not my downtown. But don't complain when people go to Calgary and complain the downtown is dead on weekends or has a very very very light crowd compared to the often packed Chinook Centre.

Chinook "should have been built" in the same sense that Yorkdale or, hell, Square One "should have been built." It was a suburban mall on the edge of town when it was built- or when the two malls that would become Chinook were built. Are you seriously saying that Calgary should have no malls?!?

The only people who "complain" about Calgary's downtown are people from other Canadian cities- those being, of course, Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver- who rely on their own cities as TYPICAL of Canadian urban experience when they are in fact OUTLIERS, in a very good way, and models that a city of Calgary's size and age and location could never hope to emulate; they are also-- and I think this is the most important consideration-- prejudiced to despise Calgary and to not see the good about this city. If you ask people who AREN'T Canadian, especially Americans, they are completely impressed with our downtown- with its beauty, cleanliness, SHOPPING ("this is awesome- downtown Denver/Cincy/San Jose/etc etc doesn't have grocery stores/a real Chinatown/real department stores/such great restaurants/etc etc etc), cultural diversity and generally progressive vibe.

I hate to break this to you, but your professors are hateful douchebags- I taught at Ryerson and I had to run that gauntlet when I told my colleagues I'd taken a position at the U of C where I didn't get a tiny smidgen of support but instead was at one point LECTURED about how I could DARE to move the "the belly of the beast"- and your ex-Calgarian classmates are pretentious wannabes who, like pretty much every ex-Calgarian I've known in Toronto (and every other city in Canada) is seriously so deluded that they think they're refugees who escaped from a gulag. And they have an ignorant audience of people like you, Mike, who very much wants to hear that sort of thing.

If you're going to refuse to come here, and with an open mind, then stop posting about Calgary.

[niwell]

The assertion that "Chinook shouldn't have been built" is simply baffling. Really, absurd to the point where a response along those lines is barely warranted. So I'll just go ahead and point out that the mall is the the key amenity that will make intensification in the area viable (going to disregard the large lots across the street for sake of argument).

Really though I have no idea where these bizarre ideas of how cities should operate (presumably based on pseudo-history or some strange alternate reality) come from. Having worked with several Ryerson planning graduates and current students I can say it's probably not from there. Though the program really is lacking the critical analysis present in other Ontario planning schools. In other words it's very mainstream status quo, but graduates come out with a higher level of technical proficiency.

[WhipperSnapper]

This is the same guy who would have people from Guelph commuting to downtown Toronto for more than the bare essentials. Strange for a guy that supposedly visits downtown frequency not to see such lunacy is completely unwarranted for it to remain the centre of its universe in either Toronto or Calgary. For Toronto, not sure how he can be completely oblivious to the amount of commercial development that has recently been built and continues to be built. The city hasn't been throwing deep subsidies and parades either. They've been gouging developers out of millions of dollars.

[miketoronto]

My ideas on Chinook have nothing to do with what I am being taught. The current fad in planning is decentralization and believe me my ideas have nothing to do with what I am being taught as most people in school don't even worry about downtown health.

The simple fact is that Calgary is not that large of a city, and a mega suburban mall built only a couple km's from downtown was really never needed. All it did was suck the shoppers that did go to downtown Calgary away. Just like malls in almost every other city have done.

All these malls are not built because of a need. They are just built and they suck retail dollars from other areas of the city.

If Chinook was 50 km of the city I think there would be an argument for it. But with how close it is to downtown it really was not needed and just sucked life from the downtown. And it seems to be doing a good job at that, now that it is seeing stores set up their only Calgary locations there instead of downtown. There have also been newspaper articles written about how Chinook is the place to be in the city and not downtown.
Other comments such as shopping downtown on weekends is nice because it is so quiet compared to Chinook show that the downtown while high end is not performing as it should. And a lot of that has to do with the fact that the city still promotes and allows suburban minded development.

And the comments about Yorkdale are also correct. Yorkdale is becoming too much of a destination and it is undermining downtown Toronto to a degree.
Until about 10 years ago downtown Toronto was the only location for destination retail. But now places like Yorkdale are trying to get stores that only had downtown locations like Tiffany and Zara.

Go ahead and support Chinook if you want. But 8th Ave would be a hell of a lot busier if Chinook did not steel so much shoppers from the downtown.

I really don't understand how you guys think I am weird for wanting the destination stores downtown. It would be natural in most cities to have the destination stores downtown and not in a suburban mall.
But then that is why North American cities so much less busy than many of their international cousins. Because we like to give people reasons to never go downtown.

A key indicator to the health of a downtown area is if teens hang out there. I would bet that most teens head for a Saturday at Chinook over going to 8th Ave downtown.

And not everyone who is critical of Calgary are trying to impress Toronto people. I have talked a downtown Calgary BIA worker concerning downtown retail and she has admitted to me that Chinook does suck life out of the downtown and the downtown is very quiet outside of business hours, because people go to Chinook instead of going downtown.

And as for the comment about visiting Calgary. I actually do want to visit it. I just have not been able to fit it into my travels yet as it is far away from Toronto. But I do not hate Calgary or think it is bad. I in fact am always praising the Calgary LRT and the great job Calgary is doing at improving transit services. I don't see how wanting to see a more vibrant 8th Ave and a more vital downtown is seen as bashing the city. If anything it speaks to liking the city.

Do I come across radical sometimes with my push for supporting vibrant downtowns and not supporting malls. Yes I may. But I don't see how that is a shock on a forum that celebrates urbanism. Why am I going to defend Chinook Centre?

I don't hate all malls and sometimes malls have a place in a city. But lets face it. Most suburban malls in Canadian cities were not built out of need. They were built to divert downtown shoppers.

Hell they are even built to divert suburban shoppers. Vaughan Mills was not needed. Vaughan Mills Mall was built on the idea that shoppers would stop shopping at other suburban malls and downtown Toronto and shop at Vaughan Mills instead. The location for Vaughan Mills was choosen because it is equal distance from most major suburban Toronto malls and it was thought to make it easy for people to skip their local mall and go to Vaughan Mills.

Back to destination stores outside of downtown. This issue is not just a Calgary issue. Toronto last year saw Crate & Barel open their first Toronto store at Yorkdale. A decade ago a store would almost never think of opening their first Toronto store outside of downtown. This just shows how hard the suburban malls are trying now to undermine the downtown. They are not happy being second best anymore, and the cities have to address this issue of the malls becoming bigger destinations. Because it is for sure underminding the downtown areas. But then you only need talk to the average Canadian who almost never visits the downtown core of their city to see that. And adding destination stores to the malls just further adds to less people discovering the downtown area.

Anyway like this video says(I am a member of the IDA), "I love downtown". And I am not going to support further suburbanization of our cities. So if you love Chinook great. But don't expect me to support it. Click link to see video on downtown. The part of the video from 4:25 to 4:40 is a good comment.
https://www.ida-downtown.org/eweb//D...-34942A679BEA&

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

This is the same guy who would have people from Guelph commuting to downtown Toronto for more than the bare essentials. Strange for a guy that supposedly visits downtown frequency not to see such lunacy is completely unwarranted for it to remain the centre of its universe in either Toronto or Calgary. For Toronto, not sure how he can be completely oblivious to the amount of commercial development that has recently been built and continues to be built. The city hasn't been throwing deep subsidies and parades either. They've been gouging developers out of millions of dollars.

Guelph has a very nice downtown that has also been undermined by suburban malls. In a city as small of Guelph there totally was never a need for Stone Road Mall(which has become the retail heart of the city now). All the retail that is at Stone Road Mall should have been in downtown Guelph. Calgary you could argue that a suburban mall or two is maybe justified. But cities like Guelph, Kingston, and other small cities really never needed malls. And all those malls did was divert shoppers from the downtown. Those malls were not built because there was a need for them. They were built to replace the downtown. Which the cities then had to spend millions of tax dollars to try and save.

[the sage]

Originally Posted by niwell

The assertion that "Chinook shouldn't have been built" is simply baffling. Really, absurd to the point where a response along those lines is barely warranted. So I'll just go ahead and point out that the mall is the the key amenity that will make intensification in the area viable (going to disregard the large lots across the street for sake of argument).

Really though I have no idea where these bizarre ideas of how cities should operate (presumably based on pseudo-history or some strange alternate reality) come from. Having worked with several Ryerson planning graduates and current students I can say it's probably not from there. Though the program really is lacking the critical analysis present in other Ontario planning schools. In other words it's very mainstream status quo, but graduates come out with a higher level of technical proficiency.

I agree you cant say that it shouldn't have been built. I think its a cultural thing! North Americans like their cars and people cant be forced to shop downtown. My hometown of Newcastle has a sprawling metro area of about 800K with none of the oil wealth of Calgary and manages to have a vibrant retail sector downtown rivaling and perhaps exceeding anything I have seen in Canada despite having this 2million square foot mall only a few miles away....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MetroCe...hopping_centre)

[Me&You]

When Chinook was built, it was on the southern fringe of Calgary. It's not as if it was plopped down in the middle of town to purposely steal shoppers from downtown.

I'd like to hear how you propose Calgary (or any other city) would change this. You expect the city to tell an existing business (Chinook) that they're now too close to downtown and they can't try to attract any new stores? Do you expect the city to tell companies where they can and cannot set up new stores? In the real world, it's survival of the fittest and he with the shiniest location gets the shiniest stores. The Core's spectacular reno is nearly complete and soon it will be even more competitive.

In reality, unaffected by warped ideology, this isn't the way things work.

I asked you before and you ignored - When was the last time you were shopping at the Core on a Saturday and how busy was it?

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by Me&You

When Chinook was built, it was on the southern fringe of Calgary. It's not as if it was plopped down in the middle of town to purposely steal shoppers from downtown.

I'd like to hear how you propose Calgary (or any other city) would change this. You expect the city to tell an existing business (Chinook) that they're now too close to downtown and they can't try to attract any new stores? Do you expect the city to tell companies where they can and cannot set up new stores? In the real world, it's survival of the fittest and he with the shiniest location gets the shiniest stores. The Core's spectacular reno is nearly complete and soon it will be even more competitive.

In reality, unaffected by warped ideology, this isn't the way things work.

I asked you before and you ignored - When was the last time you were shopping at the Core on a Saturday and how busy was it?

Well Chinook is built now and there is nothing that can be done about it. But at the time Chinook was built, it probably should never have been approved by the city. Why did Calgary which was small when Chinook was built, even need a mall when downtown was more than enough for being the major retail area of the region? The construction of Chinook would be like Toronto approving a mall in the Beaches neighbourhood of the city. Why would a city need a major super regional mall so close to the downtown area?

Winnipeg did the same thing. Only about 700,000 people(and less when most of the malls were built), yet Winnipeg approved the construction of huge suburban malls only a couple kms from downtown on all sides of the city. These malls have totally killed the downtown retail district. A city like Winnipeg where everyone can drive downtown in like 10-15 minutes and where all these malls are only 5-10 minutes from downtown just did not need these malls. And what has happened shows that. These malls were not filling a retail void. They just took the shoppers from downtown and spread them out.

I asked you before and you ignored - When was the last time you were shopping at the Core on a Saturday and how busy was it?

I don't need to be there to know what it is like. Our own forumers on this forum have written in past posts(maybe a year ago) that they sometimes like to go into downtown Calgary on a weekend to shop because the downtown is so quiet and has so few shoppers that it is less stressful than Chinook.
I know a number of people who travel to Calgary including one person that just got back. And all have said the downtown area on weekends is very quiet and while the shops are open they are not busy at all.

[SpongeG]

malls serve a purpose as does downtown retail - the two will coexist and do coexist well

people who don't wanna go downtown to shop - like me will enjoy the hassle free parking and indoor convenience of having all the shops i want in one space

I like to go downtown for other reasons, shopping isn't the main one - when I say shopping i mean buying, not browsing