[Halifax] Nova Centre | 65-58-58 m | 16-15-14 fl | Completed

[terrynorthend]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Fearless prediction: they do not support it.

Agree. It will probably go something like this. "While the Province of Nova Scotia supports the principals of economic development and the appreciates the need for an expanded convention centre, the current economic picture of Nova Scotia does not allow for us to lend financial support to the proposal in hand at this time."

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by terrynorthend

Agree. It will probably go something like this. "While the Province of Nova Scotia supports the principals of economic development and the appreciates the need for an expanded convention centre, the current economic picture of Nova Scotia does not allow for us to lend financial support to the proposal in hand at this time."

The sad thing is that such an announcement will be seen as a victory for the Save The View obstructionists, when in reality it is simply a financial decision.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

The sad thing is that such an announcement will be seen as a victory for the Save The View obstructionists, when in reality it is simply a financial decision.

I think it will all depend on how its framed. If they don't support it and frame it from the perspective that they want to get the books in a row first and frame their answers from an economic perspective only (never mention HT or STV) - then they can say all they want but the reality will be it's economic.

Plus if they say something like 'we can't do it now; but we may look at it in a couple of years when the books look better' - at best; it would be a temporary victory.

Personally - I'm torn because from what I can see; there is federal money (am I mistaken?) and the city is on board - but i'd rather not move back and be paying this thing off for years. If the books can be brought to black; better. But - either way; I'd like to see it built. I'll leave it to the politicians and just sit back and see what happens lol.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

I think it will all depend on how its framed. If they don't support it and frame it from the perspective that they want to get the books in a row first and frame their answers from an economic perspective only (never mention HT or STV) - then they can say all they want but the reality will be it's economic.

Plus if they say something like 'we can't do it now; but we may look at it in a couple of years when the books look better' - at best; it would be a temporary victory.

Personally - I'm torn because from what I can see; there is federal money (am I mistaken?) and the city is on board - but i'd rather not move back and be paying this thing off for years. If the books can be brought to black; better. But - either way; I'd like to see it built. I'll leave it to the politicians and just sit back and see what happens lol.

The danger here is that no one in the Gov. will understand the concept, specs, buisness plan, economic opportunity or positive impact that the Convention Centre will have on the community. Therefore, the safe route will be to cop-out as with the Commonwealth Games.

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Fearless prediction: they do not support it.

I really hope your wrong on this prediction...I really do. There is going to be some majot fall out if they do no support it.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by Haliguy

I really hope your wrong on this prediction...I really do. There is going to be some majot fall out if they do no support it.

Well let's think of the negatives and look at them?
1) You'd have two blocks of downtown as a giant hole (potentially);
2) No new convention centre;
3) No new jobs created (to build and then run the centre).

That's all I can think of for now - but it's certainly enough in my mind to worry. Time will tell I guess?

[fenwick16]

If they do reject it then I would think that the NDP will be facing a high level of criticism from both business groups and labour groups in the Halifax area that will see it as lost revenue and employment.

My concern is what Rank Inc. will do with so much office space in the downtown core when it seems as though most is currently being built in the suburbs. Maybe they can change their plans and convert some to residential space instead of office space (within the Nova Centre proposal).

[someone123]

If they do reject it it will likely become an "any day now" project and the site will sit empty for years.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Not to mention we would be essentially turning down federal funds, which would be the stupidest move we could make as a province/municipality.

People talk about tax payers footing the bill, but I don't mind it so much if everybody else in the country helps to pay for a significant amount of our convention centre... you would never see Quebec or a western province turn down federal funds. Hell, its about time we get something from the feds.

This is a turning point in the history of NS and we need this injection to remain competitive vs. other provinces. I don't think people realize how well the west is doing right now... they are extremely pro business and are becoming quite prosperous, even SK and MB. The east could learn a thing or two about their pride and productivity.

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

Well let's think of the negatives and look at them?
1) You'd have two blocks of downtown as a giant hole (potentially);
2) No new convention centre;
3) No new jobs created (to build and then run the centre).

That's all I can think of for now - but it's certainly enough in my mind to worry. Time will tell I guess?

Huge lost of spinoff investment in the downtown

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

If they do reject it then I would think that the NDP will be facing a high level of criticism from both business groups and labour groups in the Halifax area that will see it as lost revenue and employment.

One would wonder why the NDP would reject this project since they are, after all, the "party of Halifax". Halifax is their base of operations. If the NDP alienates Halifax, they would be shooting themselves in the foot wouldn't they?

Unless that is, the NDP's core demographic (that they want to protect) is the "Heritage Trust, Save the View, Friends of the Commons" group of leftist wingnuts.

At least you guys will have a chance to see exactly who it is that the NDP regime of Darryl Dexter is really pandering to!

[fenwick16]

I took this from wikipedia.com regarding Premier Dexter

A former Chair and member Board of the Dartmouth Downtown Development Corporation, Dexter also sat as Chair of the Dartmouth Waterfront Development Task Force. He was once a member of the Dartmouth General Hospital Commission and Chair of the Dartmouth Common Committee

How did Premier Dexter usually vote as a Dartmouth Councillor - for or against large development projects? The fact that he was chair of the Dartmouth Common Committee explains why he was initially against the new Dartmouth Transit Terminal next to the Sportsplex. Nevertheless the Dartmouth Terminal is proceeding which indicates that he is somewhat open-minded and somewhat progressive if the case warrants.

Does anyone remember how Premier Dexter usually voted as a Dartmouth Councillor?

Regarding the story in question about Minister Bill Estabrooks and the decision being imminent

Infrastructure Minister Bill Estabrooks suggested Thursday that he’s made up his mind about whether a proposed convention centre in downtown Halifax deserves government funding.

"I had real opportunity to look at a lot of the specifics," Estabrooks said. "It’s been quite a positive learning experience for me. There’s a couple more weeks of to-and-fro I have with my staff. I have meetings scheduled each week with them."

But he’ll wait until later this month to share his opinion publicly, he said.

"It’s imminent for sure; the decision is not far away."

Estabrooks said he wants to discuss the matter with Premier Darrell Dexter first.

If the decision is to abandon the convention centre then I would think that the NDP would just come out and say that they have decided to abandon it, instead of waiting a month and having a couple of more weeks of to-and-fro with his (Estabrooks) staff. I can't see how they could spend this much time examining it and then decide it would be best not to support it. Halifax and Nova Scotia do quite well at tourism, so how could that be a logical decision after so much thought?

Hopefully they haven't been swayed by The Save the View arguments. If they have, then Nova Scotia is in serious trouble.

[Phalanx]

Just to try and mitigate some of the doom and gloom predictions... Even if the trade centre proposal doesn't go through, didn't Rank already have a Plan B for the site? Wasn't that mentioned in the thread somewhere back in the previous 60+ pages? In fact, wasn't the trade centre Plan B and the original idea was several mixed residential/commercial buildings? I honestly can't remember if that was something Rank said or just something someone on the forum proposed (or both... or neither).

Yes, a new trade centre is needed, and this will be an unnecessary delay and a missed opportunity if it doesn't go ahead, but it doesn't mean that there's going to be a hole in the downtown.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Well, the midtown proposal didn't happen, and given the amount of construction going on, I don't know if the start up would be feasible for anything on the site without the government money. A new concept for the property wouldn't happen for awhile and would need to be presold if there is a residential component.

I think it could go either way from what we've heard, but I agree, it will likely be more of a financial situation if it doesn't happen than the influence of the anti-development crowd.

I think the federal funds are the kicker... with Rank handling the proposal and if the HRM money is there, I doubt any provincial politician would

If Bill Estabrooks was against it happening, I doubt he would say its been a "positive learning experience". I get from this statement that he learned about how much opportunity trade shows and conventions of a larger scale are for a city like Halifax that has great tourist infrastructure already in place.

If we bring in even a couple big shows a year, it would be huge for the hotel/restuarant buisness. Wtih federal funding, you just might end up paying for our convention centre halifaxboyns, you and all the people in Alberta and every other province.

Its not that much money for Nova Scotians when you really think about it.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

One would wonder why the NDP would reject this project since they are, after all, the "party of Halifax". Halifax is their base of operations. If the NDP alienates Halifax, they would be shooting themselves in the foot wouldn't they?

Unless that is, the NDP's core demographic (that they want to protect) is the "Heritage Trust, Save the View, Friends of the Commons" group of leftist wingnuts.

At least you guys will have a chance to see exactly who it is that the NDP regime of Darryl Dexter is really pandering to!

I think the NDP is in a difficult position here. If they support it there is still a possibility that the Feds might back out. If that happens, it will be clear it is an anti NDP move by the Feds. This is what happened with the four-plex.

[worldlyhaligonian]

If the feds pulled out of this one it would be a shitstorm... how many things like this do the feds support in other cities?

Anyway, the NDP could always blame the federal conservatives.

[spaustin]

My bet is the province will opt to contribute. The municipality is on board, the feds have offered money so it would be entirely the province's fault if it didn't happen. Plus, as Monctonrad points out, the NDP's base of support is in the Halifax area. The Save the View people are no doubt vocal NDP supporters, but they aren't the reason the NDP is in power and the NDP no doubt knows it.

All that said, I still find myself with mixed feelings about this project. I don't like the design and I don't like the location and I think we've really lost out on a chance to do something with government money that wouldn't have otherwise happened. For example, we could have torn down the Cogswell and had a waterfront convention centre instead of a bunker (the convention space is going to be underground, what kind of competitive venue is that?). Instead, we have government money going to kickstart development of blocks that would be redeveloped anyway. Rank had a Plan A before the convention centre came up, and I think Plan A would have been better for the location. As SDM pointed out earlier, the recession has taken the bottom out of the Downtown office market so when this gets built, it will have quite an impact on other projects, existing office building and the vacancy rate.... Not that that's such a bad thing. The notion of an all-office CBD is so 1960s and at this point should be passe. Downtown is never going to beat Bayers Lake or Burnside for certain types of office so we shoud just give up on that and be content that Downtown will always draw the prestigous Class A clients (banks, insurance etc). What Downtown really needs is more residents. If Nova Centre goes through, I hope that some projects, like the Roy, will switch to residential.

All and all, I'm fairly indifferent. If this doesn't make the cut, so be it.

[fenwick16]

Although, I agree with everything that you have stated, it seems too late in the game to change at this point.

I would have preferred a convention centre with significantly more space which could have been a stand alone building (without a hotel) somewhat similar to the Niagara Convention Centre that is being built for $93 million - http://www.fallsconventions.com/ . It wouldn't be an iconic type building like the Vancouver Convention Centre but it would have been very functional. I like the Nova Centre proposal, but to have a larger structure it would have been necessary to build it elsewhere - such as at the Cogswell Interchange.

I am worried that the square footage of the Nova Convention Centre will not meet the future needs of Halifax. I really think that Halifax can do very well in the convention business.

[someone123]

To me the Nova Centre feels a bit lazy on the part of those planning for a new convention centre. Obviously the developers are fine with it but it is a very marginal site that is only attractive because it is already prepared.

As I've said my worry with this is that we will get an equivocal answer, the project will be delayed indefinitely, and the two blocks will sit empty.

If it does move forward I think it will be positive for the downtown, even though it was not the best possible location and design. That is a pretty good outcome when you're talking about 3 levels of government plus the private partner and various other agencies.

[Empire]

Vancouver, Ottawa & Niagara Falls all have, or are building convention centres that take advantage of views. Halifax has an advantage over most cities in that it has a great waterfront and is a walkable vibrant center for its size. One of the biggest advantages is great views from most downtown locations. It is unfortunate that the convention center doesn't capitalize on that. This site is what is available at the current time so there is no competition. If the convention center is built on this site I hope there is a component that does take advantage of the view. There could be a reception area for the convention center on 18th floor of the hotel with a 360 deg panoramic view of the harbour, downtown, citadel etc.