Millennium Line - Evergreen Extension | Completed

[TransitFreak]

Was at Lougheed mall today, and started daydreaming about possible routings once Evergreen line comes on board (gov't keeps saying they're committed!). The most natural routing would be Douglas College => VCC-Clark. But how about having Douglas College => VCC-Clark, and having Douglas College => Waterfront via Lougheed?

The train would basically enter Lougheed station as normal, but instead of continuing west, it would 'reverse' out towards Braid and Waterfront. It would be a long ride, but it would provide Coquitlam users a one seat ride to either the Expo or Millenium segments. Don't quote me on this, but I think the segment from Lougheed => VCC-Clark would be similar to Lougheed => Douglas College, and in theory, the same amount of time the current Millenium line routing takes.

The only drawback would be having reduced frequencies on the Millenium segment (and if you want front row seating, you'll need to board at the back of the train in Coquitlam), but the reason I thought of this was the impending crunch at Commercial-Broadway if the only way downtown was through there. If it were to remain the 'natural flow', I suspect that people may choose spend the extra 10-15 minutes transferring at Lougheed and going 'around the horn' to give themselves a better chance of sitting.

Of course, I would rather have the Millenium line extended to Broadway-City Hall when Evergreen opens, but failing that utopia dream, this could be an unconventional alternative. My apologies if this was already discussed.

[nname]

Originally Posted by TransitFreak

The only drawback would be having reduced frequencies on the Millenium segment

That would be the main issue. You wouldn't want to have the Millennium segment running at 95% load while the Evergreen segment got below 30% load.

And I also doubt that most people would actually choose to transfer. From my observation at Lougheed, most would choose whichever train that arrives first, so people would probably still prefer the faster option (which in this case, is to stay on the train). The plan was to cut the Millennium Line short into a segment between Lougheed and Columbia, so they would have to transfer in either case...

[madmigs]

Originally Posted by nname

That would be the main issue. You wouldn't want to have the Millennium segment running at 95% load while the Evergreen segment got below 30% load.

And I also doubt that most people would actually choose to transfer. From my observation at Lougheed, most would choose whichever train that arrives first, so people would probably still prefer the faster option (which in this case, is to stay on the train). The plan was to cut the Millennium Line short into a segment between Lougheed and Columbia, so they would have to transfer in either case...

Yes, at Lougheed due to it being about 5-10 minute time difference to downtown(depending on how fast one can transfer at Broadway/Commercial) so its whichever comes first, especially when its cold as the train is nice and warm usually. At least that is what I did when I lived out there.

Perhaps it would be more efficient if the millennium line interlined with the evergreen line like the expo line does with the millennium line. Basically every other train heads off to expo and the other goes down evergreen.

[Mac Write]

I would love to see:
Douglas > VCC-Clark
Douglas > Waterfront
Douglas > King George
King George > Waterfront
King George > Douglas

[Zassk]

All of these would be wonderful, but I am pretty sure that nearly all of these are impossible from a logistics standpoint. I dont think it is reasonable to expect anything more than one pair of routes interlined. Based on the Translink PowerPoint presentations posted on this forum in the past, it's apparent that the network will see a reduction of complexity, rather than more complexity.

Personally I expect the most likely course is:

1) Waterfront to King George ("Expo")
2) VCC to Douglas ("Evergreen")
3) One of the above routes is interlined with trains that travel between Lougheed and Columbia. ("Millennium")
4) No more trains run the "great circle" from Waterfront to VCC.

[Metro-One]

I still think with the future expansion of the M line west the routing that makes the most sense would be:

VCC to Douglas - Evergreen Line
VCC to Columbia - Millennium Line
Waterfront to King Geogre - Expo Line

This way, when the M line is extended, we will potentially have trains running at 90 second headways between UBC and Lougheed, therefore giving 3 minute headways between Lougheed and Douglas and Lougheed and Columbia.

Often the most simple solution is the best, but this means we should be re-vamping Columbia station as part of the Evergreen Line construction.

[red-paladin]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

I still think with the future expansion of the M line west the routing that makes the most sense would be:

VCC to Douglas - Evergreen Line
VCC to Columbia - Millennium Line
Waterfront to King Geogre - Expo Line

I agree, I think this is the best way to arrange it.

[Zassk]

^ Question, what is the current load on the trains going over SkyBridge to Surrey? Does Surrey need 100% of Expo trains going all the way to the end of the line in 2015? Because that is what your proposal will do.

Or I guess another way to ask it is, how does Surrey's ridership compare to the anticipated Evergreen ridership?

[Metro-One]

I do see what you are getting at, you are thinking of a possible configuration as follows:

VCC to Douglas - Evergreen Line
Waterfront to King George - Expo Line
Waterfront to Lougheed - Millennium Line

Now, the problem with this is that when the extension of the current M-line is made west to Broadway / UBC, that means Coquitlam will be given as frequent a service as Broadway, which I doubt it will need, as the routes would become:

UBC to Douglas - Evergreen Line
Waterfront to King George - Expo Line
Waterfront to UBC - Millennium Line

This would give both the Expo line portion from Waterfront to Columbia and the Millennium Line portion from UBC to Lougheed max available frequencies, as these will be our trunk lines.

While this could work, I still think that considering Surrey's potential future expansions, and the sheer population south of the Fraser, it would be best to keep the configurations as I proposed earlier:

VCC to Douglas - Evergreen Line
VCC to Columbia - Millennium Line
Waterfront to King Geogre - Expo Line

Which would become this in the future:

UBC to Douglas - Evergreen Line
UBC to Columbia - Millennium Line
Waterfront to King George and beyond - Expo Line

[nname]

Those would be the ideal plan, but giving the buget constraint, I would say:

6m24s Waterfront <=> Commercial-Broadway (3x 4-cars MKI trains)
6m24s Waterfront <=> Metrotown (6x 4-cars MKI trains)
3m12s Waterfront <=> King George (25x 4-cars MKII trains)
5m00s VCC-Clark <=> Columbia (11x 4-cars MKI trains)
5m00s VCC-Clark <=> Douglas (14x 4-cars MKI trains)
==> 136x MKI cars, 100x MKII cars ==> no new cars needed!

Or a simpler one:

3m Waterfront <=> Metrotown (14x 4-cars MKI trains, 25x 4-cars MKII trains)
3m Waterfront <=> King George (shared with the pool above)
3m VCC-Clark <=> Columbia (41x 2-cars MKI trains)
3m VCC-Clark <=> Douglas (shared with the pool above)
==> 138x MKI cars, 100x MKII cars ==> again, no new cars needed!

Basically, in both cases, big cut between Metrotown-Columbia and the hours reallocated to VCC-Lougheed (bigger increase) and Broadway-Waterfront (smaller increase). Slight cut in Columbia-King George and Columbia-Lougheed, along with 2-4 spare cars, to run Lougheed-Douglas. Both cases are almost the same, except the capacity is slightly reduced for both Millennium and Evergreen, and reallocated to the segment between Broadway and Metrotown. Trains from Surrey would be crowded, but it would be more evenly spread out (unlike currently where you get a very crowded train followed by a not-so-crowded train).

This would probably reduce the cost of Evergreen Line by 120~180 millions.. and we can increase the capacity after we get those SRT trains from Toronto for $1

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Zassk

^ Question, what is the current load on the trains going over SkyBridge to Surrey? Does Surrey need 100% of Expo trains going all the way to the end of the line in 2015? Because that is what your proposal will do.

Or I guess another way to ask it is, how does Surrey's ridership compare to the anticipated Evergreen ridership?

Impossible to get a seat if you get on at KG. Trains fill up at Surrey Central, you squeeze on at Scott Road.

A bunch get off at Columbia, allowing people at that station to get ON... or wait for an M-Line train.

Yes, that part of the line is busy.

[Gordon]

I think the plan once the Evergreen line is running is to have a certain percentage of the Expo Line trains short turn at Metrotown, to deal with the extra loads on the VAncouver , Burnaby section of the line.

[Mac Write]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

I agree, I think this is the best way to arrange it.

Yup that seems the best way. But what is the best way when Evergreen opens?

[jsbertram]

An issue with the VCC - Columbia trains is that Columbia Station doesn't have a 3rd track where these trains can terminate & sit while other trains (Waterfront - King George; Waterfront - Lougheed; Waterfront - VCC) can pass through the station.

Lougheed Station has the 3rd track and platform (currently unfinished) where the Waterfront - Lougheed, VCC - Lougheed or Douglas - Lougheed trains can sit before reversing. The existing platforms & tracks at Lougheed Station can be used by the Waterfront - VCC or Douglas - VCC trains to pass through Lougheed station when the 3rd track and platform is used as a terminal platform.

Ideally, the 'mainline' routes will be Waterfront - King George (Expo) and VCC - Douglas (Millennium-Evergreen). Some Expo trains through Columbia could be sent to terminate at Lougheed Station instead of King George (one in three? one in four?).

When Columbia gets a 3rd track & platform to terminate trains, then some of the Millennium-Evergreen trains through Lougheed can be sent to terminate at Columbia.

Until then, any train from Lougheed that is terminating at Columbia will announce 'last stop' at the Columbia Westbound platform, drive past the switches west of Columbia, reverse over the switches to the eastbound track & arrive at the at the Columbia Eastbound platform to board passengers going to Lougheed. While this manoeuver is happening, the 'mainline' trains are blocked from using Columbia Station until this train has a) cleared the WB platform; then b) cleared the switches; and then c) cleared the EB platform.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by Gordon

I think the plan once the Evergreen line is running is to have a certain percentage of the Expo Line trains short turn at Metrotown, to deal with the extra loads on the VAncouver , Burnaby section of the line.

Don't they already do that. Although I think they do it when they feel the need to. If they notice a back long from Waterfront - Metrotown. One of the trains that leaves Waterfront will be changed to a Metrotown terminus train and not a VCC-Clark or King George terminus train.

But again it is very rare.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

An issue with the VCC - Columbia trains is that Columbia Station doesn't have a 3rd track where these trains can terminate & sit while other trains (Waterfront - King George; Waterfront - Lougheed; Waterfront - VCC) can pass through the station.

This is exactly the issue - ANY interlining between the Expo and Millenium lines will reduce the maximum capacity for Surrey and PoCo-bound trains. The only way to service Sapperton and Braid stations without reducing frequencies on the outermost sections of the Millenium or Expo lines is to run shuttles between Lougheed's third platform and Braid/Sapperton. There's a crossover just past Sapperton that can be used to reverse the trains so that service can be provided on the "right" platforms.

It may not be necessary to run trains at such high frequencies initially, particularly on the Millenium line. But sooner or later that's what will have to happen unless a separate platform is built at Columbia.

[Metro-One]

Hence Columbia station would have to have a third track added before the M-line extension to UBC / Broadway is built. I really hope that is listed as a priority in the "Expo Line" station upgrades.

Until then, I guess the service could run as:

VCC to Douglas - Evergreen Line
Waterfront to King George - Expo Line
Waterfront to Lougheed - Millennium Line

My biggest problem with this is branding. This means that all of the stations from Production to VCC will have to be re-branded as Evergreen Stations. Then, when skytrain is extended to Broadway / UBC and hopefully Columbia is revamped, the branding should be change again back to the Millennium Line from UBC to Production. (Since the routes at that point should change from the M-Line being Waterfront to Lougheed to UBC to Columbia) This flip flop seems like a big waste.

[red-paladin]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Hence Columbia station would have to have a third track added before the M-line extension to UBC / Broadway is built. I really hope that is listed as a priority in the "Expo Line" station upgrades.

Until then, I guess the service could run as:

VCC to Douglas - Evergreen Line
Waterfront to King George - Expo Line
Waterfront to Lougheed - Millennium Line

My biggest problem with this is branding. This means that all of the stations from Production to VCC will have to be re-branded as Evergreen Stations. Then, when skytrain is extended to Broadway / UBC and hopefully Columbia is revamped, the branding should be change again back to the Millennium Line from UBC to Production. (Since the routes at that point should change from the M-Line being Waterfront to Lougheed to UBC to Columbia) This flip flop seems like a big waste.

The other problem is a lot of people use the Millennium line to ride without transfer between the two lines. All of those people will have longer travel times and at least one transfer after this.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

The other problem is a lot of people use the Millennium line to ride without transfer between the two lines. All of those people will have longer travel times and at least one transfer after this.

From the study we have seen out of Translink, those people are going to lose their single ride in the future, so they are just going to have to adapt. A smaller fleet of trains can be used if Lougheed-Columbia is demoted to being a shuttle or spur.

[Windex]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

Ideally, the 'mainline' routes will be Waterfront - King George (Expo) and VCC - Douglas (Millennium-Evergreen). Some Expo trains through Columbia could be sent to terminate at Lougheed Station instead of King George (one in three? one in four?).

This seems reasonable. I can't imagine that more than one in four would have to terminate at Lougheed though. Sapperton has the lowest number of boardings in the system according to this (the report is quite old, anyone have any newer stats?), and although Braid isn't that bad, I imagine a lot of it has to do with the buses that terminate there, which could probably be adjusted if needed.