Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[Smooth]

Originally Posted by CLC

This thread seems dead...

Something for fun - a possible surface solution for Broadway that will not take away precious road space:

“Straddling” bus–a cheaper, greener and faster alternative to commute

http://www.chinahush.com/2010/07/31/stra...eener-and-faster-alternative-to-commute/

How on earth does that thing turn or handle any vertical curve?

[CLC]

Originally Posted by Smooth

How on earth does that thing turn or handle any vertical curve?

look at the embedded video in this blog post, it does appears to able to handle curve like articulated bus
http://www.chinahush.com/2010/07/31/stra...eener-and-faster-alternative-to-commute/

[djh]

Originally Posted by CLC

look at the embedded video in this blog post, it does appears to able to handle curve like articulated bus
http://www.chinahush.com/2010/07/31/stra...eener-and-faster-alternative-to-commute/

LOL!
That's mega-accidents waiting to happen!

Nice idea. But it belongs in the box called Utopia, where everybody is a perfect driver, everybody keeps to the speed limit, nobody changes lanes unexpectedly, and there are never any unexpected hindrances on the road...

[nname]

Well, even a minor accident would block that system...

One main problem about the system is that unlike LRT in dedicated ROW is that it only alert the driver of potential accident, but does nothing to stop it. From the video, if the driver just ignore the warning signal - there's an accident. The system also doesn't solve the problem of at-grade crossings - its pretty much a more expensive and accident-prone version of LRT...

And also from the video, it mentioned that it operates at a speed of 40km/h. I wonder if it means the top speed or average speed. AFAIK, Beijing (and some other asian cities) limits the speed of bus to 40km/h in the city due to high accident rate. Imagine a top speed of 40 on Broadway.. it make take 2 hours to get to UBC!

I can't wait to see what happens when the system is running later this year/early next year.. I can only imagine chaos!

[CLC]

^ Surface transit in far east cities are usually slow as there are sheer amount of different types of users share the road, even the "well-planned" Guangzhou BRT turned out to be slow and chaos.

While we are off-topic, another latest development is Hong Kong MTR finally decides to adopt "vertical seats" to increase capacity.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by CLC

While we are off-topic, another latest development is Hong Kong MTR finally decides to adopt "vertical seats" to increase capacity.

These are the type of pads I wish it was implemented on the Canada Lines at the open flex space areas. Currently, we only have bars but they aren't exactly comfortable to lean on. Something with pads would be much better.

We also had these originally in the new articulated electric trolleys in the gangway area, but TransLink removed them and decided to implement two seats with a standing bar. Personally, I preferred the vertical supports more.

[eduardo88]

They have those sort of pads on the London Underground in the flex space. So when there's no one with luggage or a wheelchair, you basically have 2 seats extra at the doors.

[mrjauk]

I just found an interesting article on Toronto's Eglinton LRT in the Globe and Mail. At just over 10 kilometres long, the line will cost a cool $4.6 billion, or about 460 million a kilometre. Is that a lot? Is it close to 10 million dollars? (A Zwei joke there). Some of the length is tunneled, but nonetheless, this is what it costs to build rapid transit these days.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/scenes-from-the-eglinton-lrt/article1664931/

[lightrail]

Originally Posted by mrjauk

I just found an interesting article on Toronto's Eglinton LRT in the Globe and Mail. At just over 10 kilometres long, the line will cost a cool $4.6 billion, or about 460 million a kilometre. Is that a lot? Is it close to 10 million dollars? (A Zwei joke there). Some of the length is tunneled, but nonetheless, this is what it costs to build rapid transit these days.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/scenes-from-the-eglinton-lrt/article1664931/

Not a surprise. Most of the first phase of Eglinton Line is in a deep bored tunnel. The lines will be stacked, like Expo Line in downtown Vancouver and the stations will be deep bores too. So cost wise, it's no less than heavy rail. The main advantage comes when the LRT surfaces because it can then be built cheaper than heavy rail.

[Lee_Haber8]

Originally Posted by mrjauk

I just found an interesting article on Toronto's Eglinton LRT in the Globe and Mail. At just over 10 kilometres long, the line will cost a cool $4.6 billion, or about 460 million a kilometre. Is that a lot? Is it close to 10 million dollars? (A Zwei joke there). Some of the length is tunneled, but nonetheless, this is what it costs to build rapid transit these days.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/scenes-from-the-eglinton-lrt/article1664931/

Even with tunnel factored in, that cost is insane. The latest Toronto subway extension was at $250 million per kilometer which is nuts (Madrid can do it at $80 million per kilometer). $460 million per km? WTF??? What is eating up all that money?

[CLC]

Originally Posted by Lee_Haber8

Even with tunnel factored in, that cost is insane. The latest Toronto subway extension was at $250 million per kilometer which is nuts (Madrid can do it at $80 million per kilometer). $460 million per km? WTF??? What is eating up all that money?

Does Madrid have any new lines that will be completed in 2014-2020? You can't compare with costs of the past. Everywhere transportation construction costs are skyrocketing rapidly, including China.

[eduardo88]

Originally Posted by CLC

Does Madrid have any new lines that will be completed in 2014-2020? You can't compare with costs of the past. Everywhere transportation construction costs are skyrocketing rapidly, including China.

The Line 9 extention to Mirasierra (where I live) will cost €115million for 2km and will be completed late 2011. That works out to about $79million/km (Canadian dollars). This extention is completely bored and includes two stations.

[jsbertram]

Want eye-popping figures for subway construction?

13.7 kilometres of new subway under 2nd Avenue in New York City -stretching from The Battery in the south to 125th Street in the North in four phases of construction- for an estimated $17 billion. (a figure from 2004 planning studies). This works out to $2 Billion per mile for 8.5 miles of new subway or $1.24 Billion per KM.

The first phase from 63rd Street to 96th street is under construction and will connect with a segment built in the 1970s that runs from 96th Street to 101st Street. This is fully funded, but as the construction schedule has slipped from completion in 2012 to the current estimate of completion in 2016, 2017 or 2018 (depending on who is doing the estimating), the cost of construction has risen from Metro Transit's estimate of $4.3 Billion in 2008 to the Federal FTA's recent estimate of $5.7 Billion. Just for this first phase of construction. There are no indications where this extra $Billion or so will be coming from to ensure completion of Phase One.


At this rate if the full line is actually built, it can easily top $25 Billion and I wouldn't be surprised to see it approach $30 Billion by opening day, or over $3 Billion per mile for 8.5 miles of new subway.

However, Phases 2 through 4 are only studies and there is no funding for actual construction, and there are doubts the full line will be finished in this half of the century.

[TransitFreak]

No new developments, just a thought, so sorry guys (and gals). 1st off, I think the Broadway RT line should be of the skytrain-bombardier variety. Once Evergreen is on-line, there will be a huge crunch on the 99-B-Line (even more than current). In order to demonstrate the effects of having surface LRT on Broadway, I propose that the City of Vancouver dedicate the current rush hour bus lanes for a 16 hour period, from 06:00 to 22:00, 7 days a week, and NOT have it available to HOV's (I know it's like that now, but people will want that concession).

Also, they should make it so that rights turns are NOT allowed from the Bus Lane, but rather from the general lane. I think the reduced capacity and elimination of store front parking will just get the public and business owners screaming for a grade separated RT line, and once that's the condition, having it Bombardier technology to have a seamless integration will become a small premium when compared to alternative RT 'technologies'. This 'simulation' project should be about 2 years, which would probably be enough.

I would love the government to do the right thing, and announce grade separated Skytrain technology, but I feel this 'simulation' project would provide tangible results of 'I told you so'.

[madmigs]

Originally Posted by TransitFreak

No new developments, just a thought, so sorry guys (and gals). 1st off, I think the Broadway RT line should be of the skytrain-bombardier variety. Once Evergreen is on-line, there will be a huge crunch on the 99-B-Line (even more than current). In order to demonstrate the effects of having surface LRT on Broadway, I propose that the City of Vancouver dedicate the current rush hour bus lanes for a 16 hour period, from 06:00 to 22:00, 7 days a week, and NOT have it available to HOV's (I know it's like that now, but people will want that concession).

Also, they should make it so that rights turns are NOT allowed from the Bus Lane, but rather from the general lane. I think the reduced capacity and elimination of store front parking will just get the public and business owners screaming for a grade separated RT line, and once that's the condition, having it Bombardier technology to have a seamless integration will become a small premium when compared to alternative RT 'technologies'. This 'simulation' project should be about 2 years, which would probably be enough.

I would love the government to do the right thing, and announce grade separated Skytrain technology, but I feel this 'simulation' project would provide tangible results of 'I told you so'.

Hey TransitFreak,

I was thinking the same thing the other day, whereby we "test" a BRT line on broadway by dedicating one lane each way as a bus lane. With university starting the fall semester soon, it would be an excellent test. But really, i think just by having translink/CoV announce this test say a month from now for a week, would have everyone up in arms and that it would never see the light of day.

Likewise it will be similar when more details of the plans, specifically the at-grade ones about losing parking on both sides, etc, that will instantly kill the at-grade options, at least for the portions of broadway where the businesses are. Take for example the businesses downtown with the hornby bike lanes taking away parking.

[TransitFreak]

Originally Posted by madmigs

Hey TransitFreak,

I was thinking the same thing the other day, whereby we "test" a BRT line on broadway by dedicating one lane each way as a bus lane. With university starting the fall semester soon, it would be an excellent test. But really, i think just by having translink/CoV announce this test say a month from now for a week, would have everyone up in arms and that it would never see the light of day.

Likewise it will be similar when more details of the plans, specifically the at-grade ones about losing parking on both sides, etc, that will instantly kill the at-grade options, at least for the portions of broadway where the businesses are. Take for example the businesses downtown with the hornby bike lanes taking away parking.

I was thinking more along the lines of trying this BRT with a full year lead time (i.e. announce 2011, implement 2012), and do a pilot program for 8 months even (but during the busy times, like start of school in Sep to end of school in Apr), to provide tangible evidence of a surface-type RT option on Broadway. That way, Translink can present a stronger case vs. theoretical arguments.

One could make the case of how the old 98-BLine provided the pre-cursor of an upgrade to a grade-separated RT solution (Canada Line). Perhaps we need that on Broadway too? Or, perhaps once Evergreen comes online, the immediate increased load on the Broadway corridor will provide the necessary 'negative response' of lack of Skytrain down the corridor to persuade the general public to urge Translink and the BC government to build it.

I guess what I'm saying is that I know there's been some open houses on the future of the Broadway corridor, and there's a general sense that the success of the Canada Line during the Olympics is providing momentum for a similar option for the Broadway corridor. I'm just concerned that somewhere down the line, a few politicians pandering for some votes or face time could seriously hinder the full potential of transit down the Broadway corridor. I would prefer to have done a 'case study', and then throw the report in their face (metaphorically speaking, of course, but not really)

[jsbertram]

I was at one of the Broadway meetings before the summer, and got the impression from one of the facilitators that these meetings were one of the necessary steps in appearing to listen to the public on their desires for the UBC line.

My impression is that the decision has already been made to use SkyTrain Bombardier technology like the Evergreen Line. The Millennium line will be extended west overhead from VCC to Prince Edward St, then underground heading south under Prince Edward St to either 10th Ave (the preferred route) or Broadway, then continue underground heading west to UBC.

With the fiasco of the Cambie Trench they will be required to use TBMs instead, but one of the experts said to me "any decision made by a previous city council (to ban cut 'n' cover subway construction) can be changed by a future council"

The experts apparently have been busy analysing the public comments and ideas, and there will be another round of public meetings starting in Sept that will conclude with a preferred choice and cost estimates that can be presented to all layers of gov't for their approval.

I'm not expecting a UBC line decision to be made by the politicians before 2015 (so they can see the good or bad results of the Evergreen Line), with construction to be done by 2020.

By 'construction' I expect it to be broken into three phases:

a) VCC to City Hall;
b) Extension to Arbutus;
c) Extension to UBC.

with only (a) operating by 2020

[Hot Rod]

taking so long .. ....

[madmigs]

Originally Posted by TransitFreak

I was thinking more along the lines of trying this BRT with a full year lead time (i.e. announce 2011, implement 2012), and do a pilot program for 8 months even (but during the busy times, like start of school in Sep to end of school in Apr), to provide tangible evidence of a surface-type RT option on Broadway. That way, Translink can present a stronger case vs. theoretical arguments.

One could make the case of how the old 98-BLine provided the pre-cursor of an upgrade to a grade-separated RT solution (Canada Line). Perhaps we need that on Broadway too? Or, perhaps once Evergreen comes online, the immediate increased load on the Broadway corridor will provide the necessary 'negative response' of lack of Skytrain down the corridor to persuade the general public to urge Translink and the BC government to build it.

I guess what I'm saying is that I know there's been some open houses on the future of the Broadway corridor, and there's a general sense that the success of the Canada Line during the Olympics is providing momentum for a similar option for the Broadway corridor. I'm just concerned that somewhere down the line, a few politicians pandering for some votes or face time could seriously hinder the full potential of transit down the Broadway corridor. I would prefer to have done a 'case study', and then throw the report in their face (metaphorically speaking, of course, but not really)

Either way, I don't think the businesses/vehicle users(be it commuters or movement of goods) along Broadway would ever let this happen once they realize what it entails regarding parking and all the other hassles.

[Gordon]

How much would a BRT line along Baroadway prove, seeing that the #99 B Lne
is more orf less a BRT without a busway and is overcrowded?