Port Mann/Highway 1 Improvements | Completed

[Alex Mackinnon]

It wouldn't cripple anything. We're talking about trying to charge the same amount of money in both cases, we're just trying to find the most efficient way of doing it.

The most efficient way is obviously one that doesn't require the addition of another couple hundred bureaucrats to already bloated bureaucracy. All a gas tax entails is changing one value out in a spreadsheet and putting a new value in it's place, then telling a whole bunch of gas stations this is your new tax rate. No new bureaucrats required.

The fact is right now I pay money to the government to register my car, insure it, buy it, fuel it, maintain it, and now you're saying I should set aside another bit of money in a separate bill to put roads under it. That's exactly what the other — was for that I'm already paying. Not to mention the fact that a lot of it is already coming out of my pay cheque anyways. It's coming out of the same wallet. I don't care that I need to pay for the roads, but I do care that I'm getting jerked around more doing it, and I really don't like I'm paying extra for some bureaucrat to take my money from me in a less efficient way.

This kind of stuff needs to pass a stupid test.

[renthefinn]

Originally Posted by Stingray2004

Furthermore, the current PMB has some construction flaws in that some of the pilings never reached bedrock. That's why you have that "dip" with the steel plating on the deck once you pass through the arches in both directions. It was a major engineering story/political issue during the 1960's.

Did any of the piles ever reach bedrock? Based on my local knowledge and information, I find that highly unlikely. AFAIK none of the PM bridge pilings are on bedrock, neither are the recently build Golden Ears Bridge foundations.

[MechMike]

Originally Posted by renthefinn

Did any of the piles ever reach bedrock? Based on my local knowledge and information, I find that highly unlikely. AFAIK none of the PM bridge pilings are on bedrock, neither are the recently build Golden Ears Bridge foundations.

Source to your local knowledge and information please?

That sounds completely absurd considering we live in a region prone to a major earthquake some time in the future.

[red-paladin]

I feel the need to point one thing out.

The Brunette interchange was not removed/downgraded to cut costs.
In fact, it was decided not to built it because they decided it was going to be downgraded to a minor interchange and a new major one was going to be built between Brunette and the new King Edward overpass. The could have built it and then had to reconfigure it later, but they would rather make minor changes for now and plan for the new interchange later.

In my view this is responsible, long term planning, that will give us a better system in the medium-long term. It's better than the short term thinking we often complain about, and it's not cheaping out. In fact, when the build the ultimate configuration it will be a larger investment.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Your "downsides" are my "upsides".

1) YES, that's EXACTLY what a gas tax SHOULD do. There are a helluva lot of people who drive gas guzzlers for no good reason, and for the others the reason (trade, commercial vehicle) often pays for the tax. Good transportation policy should reward those who use less gas, whether it's because they drive less OR because they drive a more fuel-efficient car.

2) YES, electric cars SHOULD get a break. See above. Electric cars reduce our dependence on oil (especially in hyrdo-powered BC) which is a really, really good thing for a lot of reasons (peak oil, geopolitical strife, pollution), even if you don't believe in global warming.

Yet an electric car uses the exact same amount of space as a car that runs on gas. So we could be looking at a future traffic jam of electric cars. But because there is no gas tax. There is no fee to use the road.

I'd rather have gps style tolling. Basicallly it doesn't matter what you drive. You would be charged a certain rate depending on where you are driving.

But I also realize that people are scared of Big Brother. So for now I'm willing to accept the tolling of the Bridges. Hopefully with all of them being tolled.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

To take a major, light-signalled intersection on a major highway and convert it into full, non-stop interchange patterns can be a real pain. It often seems better to think proactively and to install a signal-free intersection, even if the road size or traffic volume does not seem to warrant it at the present moment.

A classic case in point is the Upper Levels Highway, especially the Lonsdale Interchange. (Westview also was converted) At Lonsdale, they had to scour a deep dip in the highway to pass under Lonsdale, with the on/off ramps at the sides.

It works, but looks aesthetically weird and ugly, and could also be hazardous in snowy or icy road conditions, given the grade involved in the dip going under Lonsdale.

Since most of the upper levels Hwy has grades on it. I'd assume anyone driving on it would be prepared for a hill no matter what the conditions are. If not they shouldn't be driving.

I'd also say the hill into Horseshoe bay and the Cut. Are both far more severe than the one going from Lonsdale to Westview.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by MechMike

Source to your local knowledge and information please?

That sounds completely absurd considering we live in a region prone to a major earthquake some time in the future.

Yeah, I think I read somewhere that the bedrock is wayyy too far down below the silt - so they used pilings that splay out to form a stabilizing pattern. They did that for the Canada Line columns in Richmond.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=141025

One substantial technical challenge in this project was to develop a foundation design that will allow for timely and cost-effective construction in the deep layers of soft silt of the Fraser River.

The design selected will make use of large-diameter bored piles. These are new to British Columbia, but were recently used by engineers from the project team on the My Thuan Bridge in Viet Nam.

The construction process required to sink these piles requires a minimum of specialized equipment compared with more conventional methods, and it has less impact on the marine environment.
...

See this too:

http://www.journalofcommerce.com/article/id22913/profenvironmental

[Mininari]

Originally Posted by Zegby

LOL so true. Thats what you experience going down the current River Road. If there are too many lights, the SFPR won't be much better

At least the SFPR will have 4 lanes... and (utter disgust) turn lanes.

Prepare for the worst. Hope for the best.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Yeah, I think I read somewhere that the bedrock is wayyy too far down below the silt - so they used pilings that splay out to form a stabilizing pattern. They did that for the Canada Line columns in Richmond.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=141025



See this too:

http://www.journalofcommerce.com/article/id22913/profenvironmental

I have been told in the past. That the bedrock is about 300 feet below the surface around the Port Mann.

[DKaz]

Originally Posted by Mininari

http://www.news1130.com/news/local/artic...aying-to-use-unfinished-port-mann-bridge

My respect for News 1130 is going downhill. I tried posting a comment twice for people to avoid the tolls and take Rapidbus if they don't need to drive and it was not approved. It seems that all News 1130 is interested in is fanning the flame of anger towards the tolls.

EDIT: Seems it was approved after all.

[Mininari]

"These are not the comments we're looking for."

[Stingray2004]

Originally Posted by renthefinn

Did any of the piles ever reach bedrock? Based on my local knowledge and information, I find that highly unlikely. AFAIK none of the PM bridge pilings are on bedrock, neither are the recently build Golden Ears Bridge foundations.

Originally Posted by officedweller

Yeah, I think I read somewhere that the bedrock is wayyy too far down below the silt - so they used pilings that splay out to form a stabilizing pattern. They did that for the Canada Line columns in Richmond.

You guys may well be right and I may have mis-spoken. I was always under the impression that the piles hit bedrock but, if not, then the technical aspects are a bit over my head.

Regarding the Port Mann Bridge, I do know that many of the piles were not sunk deep enough, which caused some sinkage in the structure.

Regarding the GEB, a specialized team of 18 crane cable drivers, engineers, etc. were brought over from Germany specifically for the pile boring/foundation work. As a matter of fact, one of these individuals either posted on here or on another site about that work and was from Düsseldorf, Germany. I recall him stating that their specialized team moves world-wide for their foundation work.

The reason that the crossing at the George Massey Tunnel was built as submerged tunnel tubes during the late 1950's was that the silts were too soft and deep for bridge piers. Makes one wonder how they dealt with the foundation work for the Pattullo Bridge during the 1930's.

[Mininari]

Very good question about the Patullo... well, its stood the test of time, a few moderate earthquakes, and even a fire, and its still standing. Lets hope it stays that way until the replacement is built.... which According to Translink's record, should take another 25 years or so.

My Grade 9 drafting teacher once told me (waaay back) back that when they were building the Alex Fraser Bridge, they screwed up and reversed the drawing somehow, and started installing the wrong kind of piles on the Delta side. Is there any truth to this?

[red-paladin]

Originally Posted by Mininari

Very good question about the Patullo... well, its stood the test of time, a few moderate earthquakes, and even a fire, and its still standing. Lets hope it stays that way until the replacement is built.... which According to Translink's record, should take another 25 years or so.

My Grade 9 drafting teacher once told me (waaay back) back that when they were building the Alex Fraser Bridge, they screwed up and reversed the drawing somehow, and started installing the wrong kind of piles on the Delta side. Is there any truth to this?

I thought it was that the deck was built wrong and had to be redone.

[Zassk]

There was some kind of controversy while Alex Fraser was under construction, which BCTV (now Global) was all over at the time. I believe the concrete for the towers was poured incorrectly and might have resulted in air pockets in the concrete, reducing its strength. I don't recall if anything was done to mitigate this afterwards.

[SpongeG]

wasn't that the skytrain bridge too? i remember overhearing some guy while on the skytrain that there were air pockets in the bridge and he didn't like crossing it

[DKaz]

The bridges haven't collapsed in the last 25 years, I think it's safe to say that they're safe.

[Stingray2004]

Originally Posted by Zassk

There was some kind of controversy while Alex Fraser was under construction, which BCTV (now Global) was all over at the time. I believe the concrete for the towers was poured incorrectly and might have resulted in air pockets in the concrete, reducing its strength. I don't recall if anything was done to mitigate this afterwards.

I believe that you're referring to Skybridge, which was constructed by the non-union firm Kerkhoff Construction. At the time (late 1980's), there was a big political battle that continued to ensue between the construction unions and non-unionized construction firms and Kerkhoff was at the forefront of that battle. (That political battle started several years earlier at the Pennyfarthing site on False Creek and later escalated to the Expo site circa 1983/84).

To put things into further perspective, during the early 1980's unionized construction firms controlled about ~90%(?) of major construction projects. Today that has shrunk quite a bit to 30% - 50% (?). It was all union/anti-union politics back then.

In any event, some construction unions alleged that the concrete poured for the Skybridge piers/towers was poured incorrectly - that extensive "honeycombing" had taken place within the concrete piers/towers as a result of non-union firms pouring that concrete. Of course, that could impact the structural integrity of the two towers. Nothing more ever came out of that AFAIK.

The only controversy that I have ever heard concerning the AFB was over the intitial alignment. Nimby Nordel residents wanted the AFB moved further westward away from their homes on the hill along an alignment known as the "W1" alignment. MoT stuck to their — and built the AFB along the existing corridor. Other than that, have never heard anything else constroversial about the AFB.

[officedweller]

Pic from the webcam today
- that's going to be one tall stabilized-earth wall at the HOV on-ramp!



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[zivan56]

For those who don't know: If you want to see high res images of any HWY 1 webcams, just press the "print" icon and a new window will come up. Then, right click on the image and either select "copy" or "copy url." That will either give you the link to the full resolution image or copy it to your clipboard.
If you look at the URL, you can change it to get high res images from back in time by changing the month/day/hour.