Tim Hortons Field | 40m | ? | Complete

[highwater]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

So there is an opportunity to attract higher quality employment to the EM lands - plan a satellite IP2 park on the EM!

Markbarbera, that is over the top, even for you.

Originally Posted by markbarbera

The core business is not a loss leader when placed in a properly located facility with adequate capacity, so your premise is based on a false assumption.

An assumption based on the ticats' insistence that they need a 7,000 car proprietary parking lot and ownership of a power centre in order to be 'sustainable'.

Originally Posted by markbarbera

Aberdeen and Longwood is a site he thinks would work.

Do you know this for a fact? The only mutterings I've heard coming out of the ticats' camp regarding this site have been decidedly lukewarm.

Originally Posted by markbarbera

There's an access issue for a site immediately adjacent to the 403, right at the Aberdeen exit? Within 400m of a future LRT station?

And how many lanes of traffic are there leading to that exit? What good is being adjacent to a highway when it takes an hour to exit the parking lot?

[Jon Dalton]

Honestly, I just don't give a shit anymore. HostCo has been fucking around far too much for my liking.

I stopped giving a shit the night of Aug. 10 when the East Mountain proposal effectively died. That meant council refused to have sprawl shoved down its throat - whether the outcome is the West Harbour, some *reasonable* alternative, or nothing.

The best outcome I can see at this point is holding soccer at Mac and using that as leverage to build the LRT there.

[markbarbera]

Originally Posted by highwater

Markbarbera, that is over the top, even for you.

Imagining a second IP-style high level employment zone for the city is over the top? Really? Are you saying once the IP employment land is developed that's it for that style of employment lands in Hamilton? The former Steelcare site is at least ten years off from IP's development plan. If it develops successfully, I don't think it's over the top to seed a second employment zone in Hamilton based on the same model. Now look who's being self-loathing.

Originally Posted by highwater

An assumption based on the ticats' insistence that they need a 7,000 car proprietary parking lot and ownership of a power centre in order for the EM site to be 'sustainable'.

Fixed it for you.

Originally Posted by highwater

Do you know this for a fact? The only mutterings I've heard coming out of the ticats' camp regarding this site have been decidedly lukewarm.

You are involved in discussions with the Ticat camp? I didn't know you and Bob Young were on such good speaking terms. Personally, I am not, but from what has been reported in the news, discussions began between city staff and ticats staff around the same time that the Aberdeen/Longwood proposal was being floated. Call me a pollyanna, but to me this is promising news.

Originally Posted by highwater

And how many lanes of traffic are there leading to that exit? What good is being adjacent to a highway when it takes an hour to exit the parking lot?

There is highway access for those with inter-city trips via the 403, local road access for the intra-city car trips via Aberdeen, Longwood/Main, and Aberdeen/Frid (when southern extension is completed), and there is LRT access via the Main and Longwood station. There is even potential to have a GO Train station located at Aberdeen at the future Frid extension. And there are bike lanes planned for Longwood, currently existing on Dundurn, and a bike route along the CP rail trail westward from the site. Multi-modal access.

[bluevue]

dare I say that with this as an option...but if we were to really stretch it...put a parking station (garage/lot)at the top of the escarpment on/near old chedoke hospital lands and put a rail car to go up and down the the escarpment for those people...you know all the kind of cool things people want brought back to the area anyway...you know the trolleys that once existed. How many cities could say they have this as a mode of transportation to a stadium. Out there, but would be awesome...and TSN would eat it up in their pull back shots of the area.

[highwater]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

Imagining a second IP-style high level employment zone for the city is over the top? Really?

On the EM, yes. "Over the top" is putting it politely.

Originally Posted by markbarbera

Fixed it for you.

Bollocks. Sole ownership of parking and big box spin off is the very essence of the 'driveway to driveway' experience. This is why WH was a no go for them, and it's the reason why they refuse to reveal their studies, and the identities of their NFL 'driveway to driveway' experts. They know that they will lose public support when we see the cynicism of the naked cash grab behind the 'driveway to driveway' business model.

Originally Posted by markbarbera

There is highway access for those with inter-city trips via the 403, local road access for the intra-city car trips via Aberdeen, Longwood/Main, and Aberdeen/Frid (when southern extension is completed), and there is LRT access via the Main and Longwood station. There is even potential to have a GO Train station located at Aberdeen at the future Frid extension. And there are bike lanes planned for Longwood, currently existing on Dundurn, and a bike route along the CP rail trail westward from the site. Multi-modal access.

The highway access for WH may be a bit farther, but there is far more lane capacity leading to it, and for intra-city trips. There isn't just 'potential' for GO, it's planned, and on the existing line, as well as plenty of the multi-modal access you mention. Apart from being slightly farther from the highway, WH has everything you mention and more, and yet you continue to spin the supposed superiority of every other possible site but WH. It's a bizarre fixation, really. Maybe you're buddies with Herman Turkstra, or maybe you just hate this forum and so have made it your business to crush any little green shoots of hope that manage to work their way up through the asphalt. Suit yourself.

[SteelTown]

Dunno but I think I heard CHCH saying that the City and the Ti Cats organization are meeting and that the Ti Cats will make an announcement before Tuesday.

[markbarbera]

Originally Posted by highwater

... yet you continue to spin the supposed superiority of every other possible site but WH. It's a bizarre fixation, really.

Almost as bizarre as your fixation on WH and your continuous spin to shoot down any proposed alternative to WH.

Bottom line: A Pan Am stadium in Hamilton depends on a financially viable business case with a clearly defined legacy use for the facility. The business case for a stadium anywhere in Hamilton will not be financially viable for the city unless the Ticats (or some other professional sport league) are tenants at the stadium. Not my words, nor Bob Young's, nor Herman Turkstra's, nor anyone at Hostco, these are the words of the city manager. If the city remains inflexible on the WH site, the stadium and all the associated funding from senior governments is lost.

If we find a suitable alternate location, we can get a stadium and the associated funding from the feds and the province. And WH would be better off if we reverted back to the original plans for the neighbourhood, IMHO.

[bigguy1231]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

Dunno but I think I heard CHCH saying that the City and the Ti Cats organization are meeting and that the Ti Cats will make an announcement before Tuesday.

They have probably finally come to the realization that they better get onboard or they are going to really screw things up for themselves. From speaking to a couple of the councillors that I know, as far as they are concerned they will vote for no stadium at all before being rushed into something they don't want and they don't want the Aberdeen site.

[markbarbera]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

Imagining a second IP-style high level employment zone for the city is over the top? Really? Are you saying once the IP employment land is developed that's it for that style of employment lands in Hamilton? The former Steelcare site is at least ten years off from IP's development plan. If it develops successfully, I don't think it's over the top to seed a second employment zone in Hamilton based on the same model. Now look who's being self-loathing.

Originally Posted by highwater

On the EM, yes. "Over the top" is putting it politely.

This is really a side discussion better off elsewhere in this forum, but I'd really like to hear why you think it's over the top to imagine seeding another IP-style employment area at the Red Hill Business Park once Innovation Park is fully occupied.

[bigguy1231]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

Almost as bizarre as your fixation on WH and your continuous spin to shoot down any proposed alternative to WH.

Bottom line: A Pan Am stadium in Hamilton depends on a financially viable business case with a clearly defined legacy use for the facility. The business case for a stadium anywhere in Hamilton will not be financially viable for the city unless the Ticats (or some other professional sport league) are tenants at the stadium. Not my words, nor Bob Young's, nor Herman Turkstra's, nor anyone at Hostco, these are the words of the city manager. If the city remains inflexible on the WH site, the stadium and all the associated funding from senior governments is lost.

If we find a suitable alternate location, we can get a stadium and the associated funding from the feds and the province. And WH would be better off if we reverted back to the original plans for the neighbourhood, IMHO.

My God look who's talking, the spinmaster himself. Lately I swear you are working for Bob Young.

I don't see any special legacy uses for the facilities in Toronto and yet they are building them there. Why should we or any other city be held to a different standard.

[markbarbera]

Originally Posted by bigguy1231

My God look who's talking, the spinmaster himself. Lately I swear you are working for Bob Young.

I don't see any special legacy uses for the facilities in Toronto and yet they are building them there. Why should we or any other city be held to a different standard.

The athletics department at York University would beg to differ. When done, York university will own a track facility with permanent seating for 5,000.

We are being held to the same standard that recently saw Burlington stripped of its new soccer stadium. Legacy use is essential.

[bigguy1231]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

The athletics department at York University would beg to differ. When done, York university will own a track facility with permanent seating for 5,000.

We are being held to the same standard that recently saw Burlington stripped of its new soccer stadium. Legacy use is essential.

So York gets a new stadium for their amateur football team, but the city of Hamilton has to have a pro football team to get a stadium here.

Burlington lost it's stadium because it's not on a GO line. It had nothing to do with legacy uses. By that line of reasoning we will only get a stadium in this city if it's on a Go line. That would rule out any other location in this city but the West Harbour. But then again Hostco will change the rules again to suit their purposes.

This whole process has been loaded against the city of Hamilton and any other community outside of Toronto. This whole idea of a regional games was a farce. It's all about Toronto. The rich getting richer. Screw the rest of the province.

[mattgrande]

Originally Posted by bigguy1231

This whole process has been loaded against the city of Hamilton and any other community outside of Toronto. This whole idea of a regional games was a farce. It's all about Toronto. The rich getting richer. Screw the rest of the province.

It's beginning to look like that's the case. My biggest fear now is that the Ti-Cats and the City will agree to a location (whatever that may be), and HostCo will pull the plug anyway.

[markbarbera]

Originally Posted by bigguy1231

So York gets a new stadium for their amateur football team, but the city of Hamilton has to have a pro football team to get a stadium here.

Burlington lost it's stadium because it's not on a GO line. It had nothing to do with legacy uses. By that line of reasoning we will only get a stadium in this city if it's on a Go line. That would rule out any other location in this city but the West Harbour. But then again Hostco will change the rules again to suit their purposes.

This whole process has been loaded against the city of Hamilton and any other community outside of Toronto. This whole idea of a regional games was a farce. It's all about Toronto. The rich getting richer. Screw the rest of the province.

The new York University stadium will be a track and field stadium, not a football stadium. It will remain for track after the games to satisfy Athletics Canada's concerns about a permanent track and field legacy from hosting the games.

Of course this is all about Toronto. That's why it's called the Toronto 2015 Pan Am Games. Having said that, there are still many events scheduled to take place across Southern Ontario in Welland, St. Catharines, Hamilton, Caledon, Ajax, Pickering and Oshawa. And, as far as infrastructure spending goes, there is still a fair portion of new facilities being constructed beyond Toronto's city limits.

[NorthEndRules]

I think that Mr Eisenberger has shown conviction and true leadership in all of this. Clearly, he has a vision of what to do with the Future fund money the city was going to use for the stadium. This money was desiganted to make Hamilton a better place to live in: Clean contaminated lands, showcase a better image of Hamilton to the country and the world, invigorate the urban economy, and make the urban part of Hamilton a destination. Real cities are designed to attract people from the periphery inward.
To the other councillors, you should grow a spine and stick to your principles. Don't let the private interests scare you into selling out the city.
To the PanAm organizers, nice job in dividing this community. If it's true your bid book had a bayfront stadium proposal and yet you've been sabotaging this with comments like today's, you have no principles.
Mr Young, it's time you sold the team. I don't think you ever bought the team to move it out of Hamilton. Did you?

[realcity]

So..... ? where are we?

Still betting my 5% chance that it will be built at WH? When did I say that? Like 13 months ago?

White Star is nothing serious. ... it's rather coincidence that we've never heard anything from them until "PUBLIC MONEY" $ was involved. Sounds like all the other downtown developments.

[realcity]

WH was never a go. I think we should look into who owns the land around the WH site.

[bigguy1231]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

The new York University stadium will be a track and field stadium, not a football stadium. It will remain for track after the games to satisfy Athletics Canada's concerns about a permanent track and field legacy from hosting the games.

Of course this is all about Toronto. That's why it's called the Toronto 2015 Pan Am Games. Having said that, there are still many events scheduled to take place across Southern Ontario in Welland, St. Catharines, Hamilton, Caledon, Ajax, Pickering and Oshawa. And, as far as infrastructure spending goes, there is still a fair portion of new facilities being constructed beyond Toronto's city limits.

So you don't think they are going to use the infield for football. I distinctly heard the person they were interviewing on TV from York say that it will be used for their football team. Once it's built and after the games York will decide what it will be used for not Athletics Canada.

[realcity]

^ aaaa oookay... even more the reason to build a larger 25k stadium at York. Forget it maan. Hamilton stubbornly insisted on WH and lost.... bc WH sucks for a CFL stadium. That's the end of the story. Give it Up man. If I was wrong then the Ticats would be building there right now as I write this.

[realcity]

Do you own the Ticats? Are you building a new stadium?

Next response typical of the WH maniac, is "it's our money". Please it's our money that is building the new Central Library, It;s our money that is building the new Farmers Market, It is our money that is rebuilding the Lister Block, It is our money that built a replica of the City Hall." All this stuff is cool right? Until you want to pull the 'tax card'. next time you need a MRI let me know if I want to pay for that>