Calgary Stoney Trail [Ring Road]

[freeweed]

Yeah, there's definitely no need for an outer ring road to go on Hwy 566 through Balzac. That's only a couple-three km from Stoney as it is.

[YYCguys]

Well, I think that the inner ring road needs to be completed in its entirety first before they even think about the outer ring road! And besides, why is an outer ring road needed?

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by YYCguys

Well, I think that the inner ring road needs to be completed in its entirety first before they even think about the outer ring road! And besides, why is an outer ring road needed?

The same reason an inner ring road is needed now. In 40-50 years, the demand will be there for it...of course unless we're all in hovercars or everyone magically then takes transit.

[Koolfire]

Originally Posted by YYCguys

Well, I think that the inner ring road needs to be completed in its entirety first before they even think about the outer ring road! And besides, why is an outer ring road needed?

I see it being built initally to expressway standards with lights and interchanges only at major roads (Deerfoot, HWY 1). Something will have to be built once the city fills in the area between the two ring roads (2 million mark?). So it's good to plan ahead.

Hwy science/research indicates that there's dimishing gains past 2 lanes (in one direction) for every lane added so your better off build two roads of 4 lanes then one of 8. And it makes sense as one fender bender will slow down all lanes of that road but it won't slow down the other road 4 km away (at least not as much).

[Jack Doe]

I believe the Outer Ring Road (ORR) concept has been dropped in favour of a "Regional Ring Road". I can think of three quick reasons for this.

1) - Cross Irons Mall - Highway 2 at Balzac was to be the location of a system-to-system interchange with the ORR. As no attempt to protect a ROW has been made this would suggest to me that the provincial government no longer has an interest in this alignment.

2) - Glenbow Ranch Provincial Park - The ORR would pass right thru the middle of our new PP. If any of you have ever wondered why Bow Bottom Trail has such a large ROW it is because this was the originial alignment of Deerfoot Trail. It was to pass directly thru Fish Creek PP. The enviromentalists of the time (this was the late '70s; we didn't really have a name for them then) successfully blocked it. Do you really think we could blast an eight-lane freeway thru a provincial park today?

3) - South West Ring Road (SWRR) - This was a 16-lane freeway which would do double duty as the SW portion of the Inner Ring Road (Stoney Trail) as well as the SW part of the ORR. Without the agreement of the Tsuu Tina the SW portion of the ORR is dead as a doorknob and SW portion of Stoney Trail is a bastardized version at best.

From what I have been able to gather, the provincial highway planners seem to be thinking in terms of a Regional Ring Road about 10 miles outside of Stoney Trail. It would fuction more as a bypass than a commuter ring road, which is essentially what Stoney Trail is.

[DavidKuitunen]

Originally Posted by Radley77

IMO, I think it goes without saying that the ring road is a necessary piece of infrastructure purely from a goods-movement standpoint. The city had outlined three scenarios with a compact, hybrid and dispersed scenario, all of which have a completed ring road (dispersed with two ring roads):

http://www.calgary.ca/docgallery/BU/planning/pdf/plan_it/plan_it_workbook_final.pdf

As the city densifies, it's not realistic that a C-train run to every single block. Nor does public transit, or C-trains carry things like goods. Densification would only heighten the need for something like the ring road to serve as a means to move goods.

I drive a delivery truck for a living and the one thing I find Stoney Trail really useful for is getting to the foothills industrial area without using deerfoot. Especially if you're driving a big diesel. It's heaps more efficient to drive a steady high speed than stop and start city driving. So for that reason alone I can see why transportation planners justify the ring road.

I don't think very many people find the ring road useful for commuting. I would like to see Stoney trail act as more of a boundary for sprawl rather than a catalyst.

[Jack Doe]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

The same reason an inner ring road is needed now. In 40-50 years, the demand will be there for it...of course unless we're all in hovercars or everyone magically then takes transit.

Absolutely agree. If it hadn't been been for the foresight of the planners in the 1970's to set out a Transportation and Utility Corridor (TUC) for Edmonton and Calgary and the uncharacteristic decision of the politicians to implement it imagine where we would be today. We need that kind of forward thinking as Calgary grows towards two million. We need a second TUC now!

With respect to hovercars, I always imagined a Star Trek type transporter which would get me from Point A to Point B in a second thus obviating any need for vehicles or even mass transit. Hell, throw in a Holo-deck in one of my rooms and I have no reason to leave. Ever. I'm sure that would cut down on gridlock.

[YYCguys]

Thanks Jack Doe for your explanation!

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by DavidKuitunen

I don't think very many people find the ring road useful for commuting. I would like to see Stoney trail act as more of a boundary for sprawl rather than a catalyst.

Agreed fully on your last point.

As to commuting.. yes and no. Obviously neighbourhoods like mine that are right on the ring road use it heavily for commuting. There's a huge volume of daily commuting east-west traffic in this city and the ring road has really alleviated a lot of the issues with John Laurie/McKnight for those in the NW that work in the NE (most common pattern). But even beyond that... I'm starting to hear people that live in the SW use it to get to the airport, because they've realized that while it may be a much longer distance km wise, it's still far faster than going through the city due to the higher speeds and lack of lights. And that's just one example.

It's obviously never going to take the bulk of the average residents' traffic (and isn't designed for it) but it's surprising how much time it can cut off for a variety of trips. And eventually it should help clear up a lot of volume from more "inner city" roads that are well past capacity - even things like Crowchild where it still has lights, that sort of thing.

[freeweed]

Discussing the pedestrian overpass earlier... no way it's too low. I had a good angle on a transit bus going under it today, and that bridge is EASILY 2x the height of a CT bus. If not 2.5x.

What's a CT bus, 9-10' high? At any rate the ped bridge is way over 5m high (which would explain the lack of signs; I've never noticed until y'all pointed that out).

[kap384]

Yep, must have just been while under construction.

[tmjr]

Hi all,

I drove SB on Stoney past the Stoney/Crowchild interchange this morning. It looks like most of the 'berm/pile of dirt/Crowchild detour pathway' has been removed from immediately north of the main bridge. It looks (to my inexperienced eyes) that they will be ready to connect the graded roadway north of the bridge to the graded portion south of the bridge very soon (within a week?)

Apologies for the poor description...

T.

[Wooster]

So, curious what you guys think:

What's the best solution for completing the SW ring road without tearing out hundreds of lakeview homes?

Is there an alternate solution for this quadrant if the SW ring road is not built?

[YYCguys]

Unfortunately, what is the best solution is probably not what the Province will pick. They will go with the cheapest solution. I've previously noted my agreement with the tunnel solution here, though it is definitely not the cheapest solution, therefore I'd love to hear other opinions too!

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by Wooster

So, curious what you guys think:

What's the best solution for completing the SW ring road without tearing out hundreds of lakeview homes?

Is there an alternate solution for this quadrant if the SW ring road is not built?

This is all my opinion...but I like to feel like I have a pretty educated guess as to how this could work out.

I don't think there is any useful alternative route for the SW Ring Road to take. Unless everyone is willing to wait yet another 10-15 years for some kind of deal to magically take place with the native band, some kind of compromise is going to be done. Anything too far out of the City will not be used as is intended right now, so that is not an option. Much like YYC needs the new runway because of traffic issues, the SW needs this road because of the terrible congestion on the Glenmore causeway, which realisitically is the only way to traverse the SW portion of the city.

If you're looking for a solution that doesn't involve tearing down houses, you're likely to get something that is either obscenely expensive (a tunnel), a big eyesore (double decked freeway), or a combination of both (double decked with a tunnel under the weaselhead). Upgrades to the surrounding network in the area will not fix the traffic problems, as you're still going to hit a bottleneck trying to make your way through the SW, and it wouldn't make an actual ring road. We don't want to be like Saskatoon, where "Circle" Drive has been a 3/4 Circle Drive until this year when they've started the final portion.

My opinion is that we should go with the 80km/h 4-lane road, with a bridge over the Weaselhead. It's simply the only effective solution that allows a connection with minimal disturbance of property, as well as not costing well over the original budget.

[MalcolmTucker]

There really isn't a good economical solution without knocking out 700-800 homes, or going through the reserve. Best to wait and try again later. The government should indicate that beyond particulars on what exact land the reserve would come to own (and whether it would then become reserve land is up to the feds and could be controversial) the deal as offered stands.

That way each successive band elections a pro road and anti road side will fight it out, and eventually one will get power with enough support to bring in the deal.

If you want to avoid both, you could always tunnel, but it would be exceedingly expensive, likely an order of magnitude higher.

[Oliver Klozov]

I was chatting with a central Alberta MLA on the weekend. We talked a bit about the SW ring road ........

- after the vote, the band phoned Luke Ouellette wondering when renegotiations would start and were told that there will not be any renegotiations, not now, not ever.

- the opportunity was there for a few months for the band to hold another vote and accept the deal as negotiated but that didn't happen. That door is now basically 99.9% closed.

The province will move forward with whatever solution they perceive will cost them the fewest votes/seats. If using the 400 million to buy up houses in Lakeview and Glamorgan will cost them a couple of ridings, they won't do it. Speculation is that the media and opposition will have a field day roasting the government over destroying those communities. The perception is that the media / opposition will get less mileage out of the province building a less-than-freeway standard road.

Bottom line now is that the result will be a political decision and not one based on what is best for the ring road now or in the future.

Based on that, I suspect the SW ring road will be an 80 kph road with a 50-60 kph curve at Glenmore and 37th. Upgrading in the future will be so costly that it will never be done.

I also suspect that there will be an at-grade intersection to allow access to the casino.

[yeeg]

Not sure if anyone noticed this but the current intersection is so big that when you turn north or south onto Stoney from Crowchild, it looks like you need to go through another intersection. This has caused problems because people who turn in those directions via a turn signal all of a sudden stop in the middle thinking they have a red light. I think they need to have cops out there to direct traffic during rush hours.

[mooky]

Easier solution, paint dotted lines on the ground. It'll work until the snow flies at least.

[Oliver Klozov]

That intersection should hopefully be gone by the time the snow flies. Considering the weather this year though, they had better hurry.