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  #441  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2010, 4:35 PM
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AP - Associated Press

An NYC icon cries foul over proposed rival nearby

By VERENA DOBNIK, Associated Press Writer Verena Dobnik, Associated Press Writer – Mon Aug 23, 11:54 pm ET


AP/Pelli Clarke Pelli Architects

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NEW YORK – Look at Manhattan from afar, and the first thing you notice is the Empire State Building, spiking like a needle above the carpet of skyscrapers that coats Manhattan from tip to tip.

Now it's got some competition — a proposal for a nearby glass office tower that would rise almost as high and alter the iconic skyline.

The tower would spoil the famous view of the 102-story skyscraper for millions of tourists, the Empire State Building's owner, Anthony Malkin, testified Monday at a City Council hearing. It "defines New York," he said.

"We view this as an assault on New York City and its iconography," said Malkin, whose grandfather founded the Malkin Holdings company. It's "the end of the image of New York City that billions of people hold dear."

The City Council is to vote this week on whether to allow a developer to erect a 67-story tower that's only 34 feet lower than the 79-year-old Empire State Building, the city's tallest skyscraper.

The proposed tower's developer, David Greenbaum, says 15 Penn Plaza would provide critically needed and state-of-the-art office space to midtown Manhattan, creating at least 7,000 new jobs.

"The fact is, New York City's skyline has never stopped changing, and I certainly hope it never will," testified Greenbaum, president of Vornado Realty Trust's New York chapter.

The council's Zoning and Franchises subcommittee planned to vote Tuesday on whether to change rules. If they OK the plan, the final word would lie with the City Council — unless the mayor objected.

Mayor Michael Bloomberg supports the tower, which was approved by the City Planning Commission last month, spokesman Stu Loeser said late Monday.

The building would stand two blocks west of the Empire State Building on the site of the current Hotel Pennsylvania on Seventh Avenue, steps from Madison Square Garden and Penn Station.

"Wow! Wouldn't that be sad!" said Christa Huggins, a 35-year-old from Utah visiting the Empire State Building's 102nd-floor observatory.

Huggins said she "loves the view of New York all the way around, but especially in that direction. And this would block it."

Renderings of the proposed building — designed by Pelli Clarke Pelli Architects — portray a skyscraper shaped like a giant chisel atop a block. It tapers to a flat edge at the peak and is marked by a top-to-bottom groove on its face.

In his last-ditch effort to change the plans, Malkin — who also owns a stake in Vornado — appealed to subcommittee members to make 15 Penn Plaza no more than 825 feet high, about two-thirds of the originally proposed size. In addition, he asked that it be streamlined to minimally obscure the view of the western side of the Empire State Building.

But the idea of even an 825-foot tower next to the 1,250-foot-tall Art Deco symbol of New York — 1,454 feet including its spire — disappointed some tourists.

"That would still be no good, because I like to look down at the streets of New York," said LeeSa Snarr, 37 — who did so Monday from the 102nd floor.

Malkin told the subcommittee that the Empire State is "the No. 1 favorite building in the U.S., surpassing the White House."

It was the tallest building in the world when completed in November 1930. King Kong scaled it in the 1933 movie and subsequent remakes; a B-25 bomber crashed into it in fog in 1945.

It became the city's tallest building again after the World Trade Center was destroyed on Sept. 11, 2001. Its brightly lit spire shines different colors to celebrate national holidays and special occasions year-round.

Greenbaum testified that he would work to help improve nearby transportation facilities, including wider rail platforms at Penn Station, one of the world's busiest rail stations; provide better access to subway stations; and ease pedestrian and traffic congestion in the area, which also includes Macy's flagship department store.

He said he would reopen an underground passage connecting nearby subway lines and PATH commuter trains to New Jersey, so travelers don't have to go outside to transfer.

The developer has not set a target date for the tower's construction, saying Vornado needs to wait until it signs a large commercial tenant first.

Malkin said he favors the development of this midtown Manhattan neighborhood, but "we are concerned about the legacy" — of the Empire State Building.

"We are the stewards of this great icon," he said.
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  #442  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2010, 4:37 PM
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http://www.dnainfo.com/20100824/manhattan/city-council-vote-on-15-penn-plaza-postponed-again

City Council Vote on 15 Penn Plaza Postponed Again

August 24, 2010

Quote:
A vote on plans to build a skyscraper just blocks from the Empire State Building was postponed again on Tuesday.

The vote was originally scheduled for Monday, but postponed after the Zoning and Franchises subcommittee hearing ran for four hours. Staffers said the vote would instead be taken on Wednesday. The issue will then go in front of the full City Council at its stated meeting that day.
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  #443  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2010, 4:39 PM
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Pelli spoke to AN about the tower during a lull in the meeting, saying that it is actually much slimmer than the Malkins suggest, given its sloping sides, the modern equivalent of setbacks, the architect said. With a top two-thirds the size of the building’s largest floors, Pelli maintains that his building is not much bulkier than its nearby neighbor.
... I'm not entirely convinced by Pelli. I wouldn't mind if his design appeared slightly slimmer.
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  #444  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2010, 5:00 PM
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http://www.dnainfo.com/20100824/manhattan/city-council-vote-on-15-penn-plaza-postponed-again

City Council Vote on 15 Penn Plaza Postponed Again

August 24, 2010
the vote is this Wednesday right?
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  #445  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2010, 5:05 PM
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the vote is this Wednesday right?
Yes, but wasn't the final vote scheduled for Wednesday anyways?
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  #446  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2010, 5:07 PM
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I wouldn't mind if his design appeared slightly slimmer.
I think any slimmer and the concept will be digressing to what many tenants are currently dissatisfied with; that being thin and disfunctional office space. Tenants have a modern appetite for expansive space and that is what this particular building would deliver.
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  #447  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2010, 5:40 PM
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I'm not particularly excited by Pelli's design. That said, I think it is a terrible idea to give the ESB a 17-block easement windfall, especially since the ownership is private and for-profit. The best way to honor the the ESB is to continue to build tall, bold things in its spirit.
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  #448  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2010, 5:57 PM
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I think it is a terrible idea to give the ESB a 17-block easement windfall, especially since the ownership is private and for-profit. The best way to honor the the ESB is to continue to build tall, bold things in its spirit.
Completely agree...

The belief that the Empire State should be the one, last tower to crown Midtown is misguided, and completely contrary to the very idea of the Empire State.




Once these large towers start getting built, Midtown will need something in the 2,000 ft range to keep the spirit alive. But at the very least, keep building tall.
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  #449  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2010, 6:17 PM
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i really wish the design was different.

well it's not a yuck, but its not a
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  #450  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2010, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Tourists Don't Like 15 Penn Plaza Either

According to a survey conducted by Penn Schoen Berland, 66% of New York visitors said the new 15 Penn Plaza tower would degrade the character of the New York skyline. Which is dangerous, because 92% of them said seeing the skyline made them excited to visit New York. So much for that record tourism year! ESB owner Anthony Malkin was quick to chime in on the results, saying in a statement, "The results are clear. When NYC residents and visitors learn about 15 Penn Plaza and the prospect it presents, they do not like it...The more they hear about 15 Penn Plaza, the less they like."
http://gothamist.com/2010/08/24/tourists_dont_like_15_penn_plaza_ei.php
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  #451  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2010, 11:04 PM
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It’s amazing how much controversy about this has been stirred up in a matter of days.
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  #452  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2010, 11:06 PM
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That model on the last page is great. I can't wait to go back to NYC in a few years and see it like that hopefully
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  #453  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2010, 11:45 PM
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New Yorkers have been forming a very strange view on skyscrapers lately. When a tall building is announced in Chicago people, even ordinary non-skyscraper lovers, are proud.

Aqua was lauded by a lot of people, even out in the suburbs, and there was a sense of loss when the Spire was officially cancelled. Here they put the Spire onto skylines on coffee mugs, t-shirts, etc anticipating its arrival.

It kind of scares me when a city starts pushing modernity away.
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  #454  
Old Posted Aug 25, 2010, 12:25 AM
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I'm not the biggest fan of the building design... however, if the height of this thing gets chopped, I will be extremely disappointed in the lack of foresight by the NYC city council.

In fact, I think this thing should be allowed to go higher, and required to construct a "iconic spire" the complements the Empire State Building and the Chrysler Building. Maybe bad example, but something along the lines of Chicago's Skyneedle proposal.

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  #455  
Old Posted Aug 25, 2010, 12:46 AM
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Its an interesting debate and I can sympathize with both points of view. This clearly illustrates how much our perception of a skyscraper is shaped by what's around it. I grew up near Rochester, New York and as a kid it seemed that nothing could be mightier than the 30 story Xerox Tower. If you transplanted that tower to New York it would get lost, but that doesn't change the fact that within the scale of Rochester it is as dominant as the Willis Tower.

The Empire State Building has that kind of power in New York. Would you want to see a 1,000 foot tower near the Eiffel Tower in Paris? Is the Empire State as an icon as important to preserve as St. Paul's dome or the Eiffel Tower?

You could say that this is just part of an ongoing process on the skyline like what happened to the Woolworth Building. You could say that Empire State's scale postponed the day when other buildings would infringe. The question is, are we ready for Empire State to become one of many like the Woolworth Building?

Part of the problem seems to be that even though Penn Plaza isn't as tall, it is still of a bigger scale than Empire State. It's more bulky with bigger floor plates. You could argue that the old spires of Lower Manhattan were destroyed by this new scale and that aesthetically the old lower Manhattan was much better even though there were fewer buildings and they were shorter. They still were more SOARING than what's there now.

The Pan Am (Met Life) building has had a negative impact on all that's around it for the same reason. That is one building I would not mind seeing them tear down some day.

The question is, are we ready to allow a new, larger scale emerge on the New York skyline? If so, we may see exciting new developments, but we may also diminish Empire State's power.
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  #456  
Old Posted Aug 25, 2010, 1:05 AM
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Originally Posted by mrskyline View Post
The Pan Am (Met Life) building has had a negative impact on all that's around it for the same reason. That is one building I would not mind seeing them tear down some day.

The question is, are we ready to allow a new, larger scale emerge on the New York skyline? If so, we may see exciting new developments, but we may also diminish Empire State's power.
Great post. I completely agree about the Met Life building, I've always felt it was a wasted opportunity for something iconic.
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  #457  
Old Posted Aug 25, 2010, 1:24 AM
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Great post. I completely agree about the Met Life building, I've always felt it was a wasted opportunity for something iconic.
well not to get off topic but while the Met Life Bldg isnt beautiful i still think it has its own unique character that just makes NY,feel like NY.
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  #458  
Old Posted Aug 25, 2010, 1:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Zerton View Post
New Yorkers have been forming a very strange view on skyscrapers lately. When a tall building is announced in Chicago people, even ordinary non-skyscraper lovers, are proud.
Also, people are easily swayed when they don't have the correct information. If you ask someone if the Empire State should be blocked off the skyline, chances are, they're gonna say no. However, I've have noticed a surprising amount of people being reasonable about the tower, saying some of the things we have been saying here in the media.


http://www.observer.com/2010/real-estate/do-non-new-yorkers-matter-empire-state-building-debate

By Eliot Brown
August 24, 2010

Quote:
The owners of the Empire State Building today released a poll that queried people around the country about the place of the skyscraper in New York City's skyline.

The point of the poll was to show that indeed this building has an iconic place in Americans' vision of New York, and that changing the skyline would be bad for the city. Sixty-six percent of New York City visitors, according to the poll's sponsors, feel the tower "would degrade the character of the New York City skyline."

...Tony Malkin, who is leading the charge against the Vornado tower, is scrambling to protect the postcard vision of New York City's skyline, where the Empire State Building sits front and center. And while he is appealing to New Yorkers to rally behind him, it is the international view of the New York skyline that he is trying to protect.

Here's a sampling of his rhetoric from a fact sheet he sent out earlier this week:

"The Empire State Building is the internationally recognized icon on the skyline of New York City. We are its custodians, and must protect its place. Would a tower be allowed next to The Eiffel Tower or Big Ben's clock tower?"

Translation: If the rest of the world had a vote, it would probably vote against this tower.

This is a rare appeal in the world of New York land use, where approvals are structured around a system of very local politics: what does the immediate community and the local Council member think about a project? And on this level, other considerations matter, such as the economic effects on the city (it's a big investment); what a new tower might do to the neighborhood (make it less gritty, presumably); and what it might do to employment (people have to build the Vornado tower, after all).

In the end, things seem to be swinging toward approval. Council Speaker Christine Quinn and other members of the Council have voiced few concerns about the height, and at a hearing yesterday, many of the questions from key Council members—Leroy Comrie, for one—suggested they were not yet swayed by Mr. Malkin.

Still, Mr. Malkin was nothing if not tenacious, and yesterday at the City Council, he did not hold back any contempt about the tower's design.

Sitting in a cramped committee room at 250 Broadway, he looked up at the Council members on the zoning subcommittee and gave testimony and answered follow-up questions with a long list of complaints about the tower.

David Greenbaum, the wiry president of Vornado's New York office division, who is leading the charge for the tower, was sitting just 10 feet away listening to every criticism.

Within a stream of other vituperation, Mr. Malkin called the tower a "1,200-foot high, brand-new monstrosity."

At that point, Mr. Greenbaum turned to his left where his architect, Rafael Pelli, was sitting. He smiled, and let out a little laugh, and went back to listening.
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  #459  
Old Posted Aug 25, 2010, 1:55 AM
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Originally Posted by malec View Post
That model on the last page is great. I can't wait to go back to NYC in a few years and see it like that hopefully
Another look at that model from a different angle (from video clip)...


Video Link















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A little info on the tower, and potential skyline rankings...

http://www.amny.com/urbanite-1.812039/sk...r-riled-by-proposed-skyscraper-1.2234410

Quote:
The proposal, which has the support of Mayor Michael Bloomberg, would go before council committees today and the entire council tomorrow. Approval will send the plan to the city Planning Department, where it will likely be OK’d.

How high?

With a number of skyscrapers in the works, here’s what the city’s tallest buildings would be:

1. One World Trade Center (to be completed in 2013): 1,776 feet

2. Empire State Building (including spire): 1,454 feet

3. Two World Trade Center (to be completed in 2014): 1,350 feet

4. Hudson Place Tower I (proposed for Hudson Yards): 1,300 feet

5. Three World Trade Center (to be completed in 2014): 1,240 feet

6. Manhattan West Tower I (proposed for Hudson Yards): 1,216 feet

6. (tied) 15 Penn Plaza: 1,216 feet
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  #460  
Old Posted Aug 25, 2010, 3:07 AM
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in this photo, isn't the base already blocked by the new towers on 6th ave?
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Originally Posted by NYguy View Post
Completely agree...

The belief that the Empire State should be the one, last tower to crown Midtown is misguided, and completely contrary to the very idea of the Empire State.




Once these large towers start getting built, Midtown will need something in the 2,000 ft range to keep the spirit alive. But at the very least, keep building tall.
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