Rail-based Transit Discussion

[Jonovision]

I went to school with Patrick. I remember seeing his report and it looked very interesting. It was a well thought out proposal for the downtown street car.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by beyeas

Keith P. need not even respond because I can simply fill in his predictable response for him:
"CREST is just a bunch of pinko commie namby pamby eco-twits peddling their using 🞵🞵🞵🞵".

When you're right, you're right.

Actually it's not a bad site except for the excessive and foolish emphasis on bicycling as a rational form of commuting.

[someone123]

I've read that report. I don't remember the exact alignments but I could see streetcars working well as transit between core areas. Suburban commuter rail or light rail would complement such a system very well.

I think cycling infrastructure is important but it will always be a niche transportation mode with maybe 5-10% share during nicer months, unless people have no other options. I commuted to university by bike when I had no car and found it to be much more pleasant than the bus and roughly the same speed for a 15-20 km trip (since the bike is door to door and there is no wait). It is vastly superior to the bus when you have to make multiple stops when running errands. It's also worth noting that the bike was better even when I was living on the 99 B-Line corridor in Vancouver, which is an express bus with 2 minute rush hour frequencies. On top of this, it was also great physical activity.

Something else to bear in mind is that bike infrastructure does not need to be expensive - very simple things like street-facing light triggers before intersections and bike racks are helpful. These cost tens of thousands of dollars compared to millions for significant roadway projects. They're totally worth it even if you are looking at adding 1-2% more to cycling as a mode of transportation.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by someone123

I've read that report. I don't remember the exact alignments but I could see streetcars working well as transit between core areas. Suburban commuter rail or light rail would complement such a system very well.

I think cycling infrastructure is important but it will always be a niche transportation mode with maybe 5-10% share during nicer months, unless people have no other options. I commuted to university by bike when I had no car and found it to be much more pleasant than the bus and roughly the same speed for a 15-20 km trip (since the bike is door to door and there is no wait). It is vastly superior to the bus when you have to make multiple stops when running errands. It's also worth noting that the bike was better even when I was living on the 99 B-Line corridor in Vancouver, which is an express bus with 2 minute rush hour frequencies. On top of this, it was also great physical activity.

Something else to bear in mind is that bike infrastructure does not need to be expensive - very simple things like street-facing light triggers before intersections and bike racks are helpful. These cost tens of thousands of dollars compared to millions for significant roadway projects. They're totally worth it even if you are looking at adding 1-2% more to cycling as a mode of transportation.

I agree that biking will only be a niche - but I think it would grow as you densify the inner city core. It seems to me that Vancouver's biking trips is around 10 to 15% - so if HRM were able to densify the inner city to a great extent; I think 10 to 15% would be reasonable and there will always be people from the burbs that will want to bike as well.

As the city grows; better transit options will become a necessity; not a dream. What that form of mass transit will be (LRT; heavy rail or combo there of) will take time to study. I think I've mentioned it before - there seems to be a pattern of areas around the peninsula that are growing on their own and they seem to be in linear patterns. That will be a good thing for when a new rapid transit system is developed, because it creates places with high density that support a rapid transit system. The difficulty will be ensuring major destinations are served like the hospitals, universities, downtown and DND.

[fenwick16]

I hope that it will be more like Portland, Oregon's LRT Max system ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAX_Light_Rail ) instead of strictly streetcars. The idea of transit based on streetcars seems to be taking a step backward to where Halifax was 70 years ago (even if the streetcars look modern).

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I hope that it will be more like Portland, Oregon's LRT Max system ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAX_Light_Rail ) instead of strictly streetcars. The idea of transit based on streetcars seems to be taking a step backward to where Halifax was 70 years ago (even if the streetcars look modern).

I would actually suggest that if you were to look at LRT for an underground system component - look at the Seattle LRT system. In certain segments - the buses and trains share the tunnels and it's like an underground street.

The LRT is low floor - so its like a bus - a very small step up into the train or into the bus. I'm not sure how the signal system works; but obviously the two work harmoniously. This could be done on a street like Quinpool or Robie where the right of way and building foundations are far apart on each side - versus Spring Garden which would be quite narrow (I'm sure it could be done; but it might be crowded).

Here is a video example:
• Video Link

But please...don't let us use a system like this (or I should say - don't operate it this way; we'd have to protect the vehicles).
• Video Link

[fenwick16]

Regarding the second video clip of the Houston system, this could be a promotional video for why people should leave their cars at home and take public transit.

Having driven in downtown Toronto and having experienced sharing the streets with the TTC streetcars , I can relate to all the accidents related to the Houston system. For such a system to be successful, maximizing ROW is a must.

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

When you're right, you're right.

LMAO Well played.

[someone123]

I've been on the Seattle train and it's really sad. It's much, much slower than the SkyTrain in Vancouver (in fact, I have heard that it's not much faster than the bus it replaced, though I can't confirm this) yet still very expensive. An engineer involved in the project was complaining bitterly about the train last time I was on it.

Seattle sadly is a fairly sprawly city somewhat like LA that isn't a great place to take transit pointers from. Part of the issue there is that they have public votes on many major projects like transit and so they end up making terrible decisions that make no sense. Frequently people propose something new and then there's another seven year study then the voters change their mind and do something else, etc. etc.

I've heard some hilarious related stories about plebiscites. In Berkeley, for example, they had to do earthquake retrofits on buildings. They decided to introduce a ballot measure for the refit of an old library that was unsafe. Because the refit required that the library be somewhat disassembled, they decided to add a separate item asking if the library should be restored while the earthquake retrofitting was taking place.

The earthquake improvements failed to pass but the restoration DID pass so they ended up doing costly renovations on a building that might not make it past the next major earthquake...

...and this is why public consultations or plebiscites should be taken with a grain of salt.

[halifaxboyns]

It wasn't my intention to suggest that Seattle or Houston are great ideas - but merely to suggest that a tunnel system could work - if done well and safety is maintained.

I've not been to Seattle; but I've read the stories about the system - so I can understand why people would be upset that the system seems to fail.

But from a Halifax perspective; if a tunnel went down Robie from say young street all the way to Dalhousie; you could probably take a lot of buses off the road. The problem would be how to get the buses back up on the street if the tunnel ends. What I mean is; if the 80 turns left at SGR to head into the downtown to end its route, but the tunnel keeps going down Robie - how would you get that bus out of the tunnel?

[halifaxboyns]

One thing that just dawned on me about this discussion is - the in case of breakdown or maintenance scenario. HRM would need a lot more buses if a regional rail or LRT system were to be shut down for maintenance or an accident - which is something I don't think any of us have thought about?

It came to mind as I was bbq'ing last night - because currently the Ctrain here in Calgary is shut down for the long weekend, so trains for the NE are stopping at Bridgeland, the NW at Sunnyside and from the south at Erlton Stampede Station. You then have to bus it between the stations on shuttle buses Calgary transit is supplying - Calgary Transit is using the long weekend (as they typically do) to install new switch tracks by city hall and do upgrades on the 7th Avenue corridor.

So if HRM had a similar situation; I would hope that there would be excess articulated buses (which is what Calgary transit is using) to take up the slack for reduced or shut down service.

[Jstaleness]

I have seen on a few occasions in the last few weeks that they have been testing the new articulated buses. I am not sure how many new ones they have ordered though. I don't see an issue supplying the buses in the event of maintenance as long as they keep the current articulated buses that are in service already. We are years away from rail transit here so who knows if the current ones will even be drivable when it happens.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by Jstaleness

I have seen on a few occasions in the last few weeks that they have been testing the new articulated buses. I am not sure how many new ones they have ordered though. I don't see an issue supplying the buses in the event of maintenance as long as they keep the current articulated buses that are in service already. We are years away from rail transit here so who knows if the current ones will even be drivable when it happens.

A friend of mine (who is a transit planner with Calgary Transit) said that when they ordered the current new flyer articulated buses for the BRT routes; they ordered about 10 extra for emergencies with the LRT.

So i'm thinking if a system as big as Calgary only needed 10 extra for weekend frequency; about the same or less would be needed for Halifax.

[Jstaleness]

Do any of the users on here ride Halifax's BRT's? Are they usually full or half full? It would be neat to see Articulated buses needed here for BRT's too so that's why I'm asking.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by Jstaleness

Do any of the users on here ride Halifax's BRT's? Are they usually full or half full? It would be neat to see Articulated buses needed here for BRT's too so that's why I'm asking.

Although I don't live in Halifax; I've ridden the BRT here in Calgary when I was dating my most recent ex (wow, that sounds bad). Anyway, I'd sometimes take the BRT because I knew we'd be drinking that night.

The BRT's here in Calgary tend to be busiest during the rush hours; where as they take some of the articulated buses off the routes during the day when the demand isn't there. That's also true on some weekends as well.

When I was home; I took the BRT to stay I took it and the bus (for a mid-weekday trip) was quite busy and it was only 2:30.

[Dmajackson]

Originally Posted by Jstaleness

Do any of the users on here ride Halifax's BRT's? Are they usually full or half full? It would be neat to see Articulated buses needed here for BRT's too so that's why I'm asking.

I've only ever ridden a Halifax BRT once and it was very full but it was also during rush hour.

I'll behave myself this time and not go into a massive rant about how I don't ride the BRT's because Metro Transit thinks it would be a sin to provide adequate transit to Bedford.

[Jstaleness]

Oh Rant on my friend. I agree.

I watched the movie Crash the other night. There is a scene when Ludacris is talking about the big windows on the bus and how they are there to embarrass the people ridding inside. Halifax is very much like this. It's been said many times before on this forum that people only take the bus because they have to and not because they "Choose" to. While I don't disagree and its true to a certain extent, how can we change this? How do you make a city as a whole feel more comfortable about riding? Let's paint all the buses Blue and Yellow with Link written on the side. They seem way more accepted by the business crowds.

[halifaxboyns]

The usual point to BRT is to establish corridors where high speed, low stop service can be established - eventually leading to the introduction of service of a high speed rail system (that's typical).

Calgary's LRT system has a similar history; with the Blue Arrow buses and then the ctrain (that is a very shortened history).

The idea of establishing an LRT along these routes in the future is a great idea -because these system establish the most travelled routes.

[hfx_chris]

Originally Posted by Jstaleness

It's been said many times before on this forum that people only take the bus because they have to and not because they "Choose" to.

I think a very large number of passengers taking the bus during rush hour would disagree with that.
As for the BRT, as I recall the route to Dartmouth, you usually couldn't find a seat.

[someone123]

I've never been on the BRT buses but apparently ridership was much higher than anticipated.

Bedford unfortunately has been short-changed because of the ferry proposal that has dragged on forever. That is a common theme in the HRM - often, it's worse to have council propose something like that because they'll debate it for 20 years while everything is on hold.

I'm also not sure why there aren't more immediate plans for Clayton Park and possibly Spryfield routes. Maybe they were waiting for the transit garage. There were also plans for bus lanes on Bayers Road that would complement BRT service.