Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[invisibleairwaves]

Originally Posted by deasine

Not a great comparison here. Within the South of Surrey region, statistics have demonstrated that the majority of the transit users only take transit within their area. With the Central Broadway District and UBC, which are the key destinations served by the "UBC Line"/Millennium Line, statistics provided by TransLink and the City of Vancouver have demonstrated that the number of people traveling to those districts that do not reside within the City of Vancouver is almost equal to the number of passengers travelling to Broadway from the city itself.

In terms of capacity, while capacity will definitely be reduced compared to SkyTrain, it is possible to build LRT in Surrey with a much higher capacity than on Broadway:

• Street blocks are longer, allowing for longer platforms, thus longer trains. This is a major limitation on Broadway. According to the 1999 Technical Study, platforms can only fit a maximum of 3-cars.
• Fewer cross intersections, allowing for higher speed and better reliability.
• Wider ROW. It isn't hard to widen King George Hwy at this point of time to accomodate larger medians and maintain existing traffic flows.

Not worth the cost? That's another debate. Definitely though, if the LRT chose corridors such as the old Interurban, it would reduce the cost of building such a network by many millions of dollars.

Speaking in broad generalities here, the reason most SoF transit users stay within their area is because the SoF residents who have jobs in Vancouver, Burnaby, etc. can afford cars. If you can afford to drive, why on earth would you put up with the terrible bus service here? If transit was improved, I guarantee you'd see a huge leap in regional transit trips in and out of the area.

King George might have fewer cross streets and a wider RoW, but the same can't be said for Fraser "Highway".

LRT along the Interurban route is a different matter entirely. While it would be far cheaper than rapid transit along KG or FH, the problem is that the tracks only skirt the edges of the populated areas of Surrey, and expanding the bus system to provide connections to it would negate a lot of the difference in cost. It would have more value as a commuter rail route connecting Chilliwack, Abbotsford, and Langley to Surrey (or New West).

[Whalleyboy]

Originally Posted by invisibleairwaves

LRT on KG or FH would be a mistake for the same reasons LRT on Broadway would be a mistake: reduction in capacity and BIG reduction in speed for a relatively minor reduction in cost, compared to Skytrain. Plus, I don't think Surrey drivers are up to the challenge of sharing the road with streetcars.

this is the same reason why it would have its own right away along king geogre and 104. Surrey always has plans to make room for LRT lanes on both fo these roads. These plans also would not be taking away any of the lanes already in place. Also surrey is looking to put smaller blocks in the city centre on king george they would easily be able to run the track up old yale and along university drive to 104. this would also add to a closer connect between this and the skytrain.

[twoNeurons]

Not to mention the fact that Surrey wants to narrow King George Highway to make it more pedestrian friendly.

[Whalleyboy]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Not to mention the fact that Surrey wants to narrow King George Highway to make it more pedestrian friendly.

They don't want to narrow it down. They know its the main major traffic road through Surrey. They want to add more intersections so its more pedestrian friendly to cross but not narrow it down. The have already drawn up concepts of what it would look like with LRT on it and no lanes are taken out.

[BCPhil]

The problem with putting LRT on King George right in the downtown of Surrey is that it's a long walk from Surrey Central Station to the Blvd. In terms of making transit connections, it would make far more sense to send LRT down 134 St/West Whalley Ring Road so that a stop can be put in right at the busloop/skytrain station.

Which also exemplifies the difference between the Broadway Corridor and Surrey transit expansion.

The Broadway corridor is very, very well defined. If we had the money, we could just start designing then building today. We know where the destination is and all we have to do is decide if we have the money for a tunnel under 10th, or have to build on/over Broadway. It's like one decision that has to be made and it's totally up to finances.

In Surrey, it's different. If we had $2.5 billion to spend in Surrey, where would we spend it? Skytrain to Newton, Guildford, or Langley? Or LRT to various points? Or implement Commuter rail? Or a combination? What about Delta and the Scott Road area where there is a lot of current and recent growth (Nordel Hill has a lot of density)? Or what about Fleetwood, or Walnut Grove? Is there going to be further growth in Port Kells, and what of Tynehead? Is White Rock/South Surrey worth planning for (there's not even a bus line to Grandview Corners yet)?

That's why Broadway is going ahead of transit plans in Surrey, because there are NO transit plans. There is a want and a need, but no finalized ideas. Until Surrey get's the shit together and figures out who, what, where, when, why, and how much, plans in other regions will move forward at their expense.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

The problem with putting LRT on King George right in the downtown of Surrey is that it's a long walk from Surrey Central Station to the Blvd.

The line can leave the roadway at strategic locations such as Surrey Central. It would also run very close to King George Station, wouldn't it?

[mr.x]

Latest from zwei, if a road crossing over an airport runway is possible you can do it for a railway crossing too!

http://railforthevalley.wordpress.com/












FML.

[Zassk]

Ding-ding...

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Zassk

The line can leave the roadway at strategic locations such as Surrey Central. It would also run very close to King George Station, wouldn't it?

It would run right under King George station. If it NEEDED to, it could run elevated across the parking lot to meet at Surrey Central as well, however, I think it's more useful to go down King George itself to promote the road to become more pedestrian friendly.

Then have some TOD built along that road.

The connection at King George can be pretty much seamless and with SkyTrains leaving every minute or two lots would ride the train one stop.

[nname]

And for some reason, they are building a tunnel under the runway that will be open for traffic next year...

[tybuilding]

This is a good article about Trams.
http://www.humantransit.org/2010/07/strasbourg-perfection-is-hard-to-copy.html
It profiles Strasbourg France which makes use of Trams and how well it works there. It also mentions that it works well there because of how the city is made up.

[metroXpress]

It's Gibraltar, a British Colony with a population of 29,286. We're Vancouver.

[Whalleyboy]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

It would run right under King George station. If it NEEDED to, it could run elevated across the parking lot to meet at Surrey Central as well, however, I think it's more useful to go down King George itself to promote the road to become more pedestrian friendly.

Then have some TOD built along that road.

The connection at King George can be pretty much seamless and with SkyTrains leaving every minute or two lots would ride the train one stop.

Why not just have it go up old yale road past holland park then down University drive to 104 ave then up there. Then the station would be close to central leaving people not having to walk so fare. Unless they get city park way to go past the mall that would be imo the best route around central.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by nname

And for some reason, they are building a tunnel under the runway that will be open for traffic next year...

Gibraltar Airport would normally have three daily aircraft flights from Britain, but on their busy days (Mon, Wed & Fri) this increased to four flights per day. The locals were used to having the road blocked for a few minutes at certain times of the day, so it became just another amusing story that travellers told their friends & families.

I bet these photos caught each of the three daily flights that British Airways has at Gibraltar.

With the recent agreement signed with Britain and Spain, Gibraltar Airport anticipates traffic to double to as many as seven flights per day, so they built a new terminal with four gates to handle the increased traffic. They also built a new tunnel under the runway and the new terminal to ease traffic issues. The former roadway across the runway will be blocked off except for emergency vehicle access to the airport tarmac.

Imagine that!
Separating road traffic into a tunnel so it doesn’t interfere with runway traffic (and vise-versa).

(as a comparison, Abbotsford Airport has more flights on a weekday morning than Gibraltar has all week)

[jlousa]

Back on topic guys.

[jsbertram]

Sorry about that!
Back on topic:

Imagine that!
Separating SkyTrain traffic into a tunnel so it doesn’t interfere with roadway traffic (and vise-versa).

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by tybuilding

This is a good article about Trams.
http://www.humantransit.org/2010/07/strasbourg-perfection-is-hard-to-copy.html
It profiles Strasbourg France which makes use of Trams and how well it works there. It also mentions that it works well there because of how the city is made up.

...and it also explains how the success of trams there may not translate to other cities or corridors such as Broadway.

Introducing streetcars sounds easy, but once you explain the whole package to the visiting civic leader, they begin to grasp how hard this must have been politically. Strasbourg looks beautiful and serene, but in political terms you could also see it as a battlefield memorial, recording a triumph that involved major pain and suffering. Transit tourists should learn to watch for both elements when they visit an admired city: Not just the achievement, but also the lingering evidence of the struggle and sacrifice that it entailed.

[CLC]

This thread seems dead...

Something for fun - a possible surface solution for Broadway that will not take away precious road space:

“Straddling” bus–a cheaper, greener and faster alternative to commute

http://www.chinahush.com/2010/07/31/stra...eener-and-faster-alternative-to-commute/

[nova9]

very interesting!!!

[tybuilding]

Originally Posted by nova9

very interesting!!!

Zwei rejoices as the "skytrain lobby" is crumbling.