Calgary Public Transit II

[LFRENCH]

Originally Posted by Aegis

Why the change? and what is the Calgary Regional Partnership?

"We are the Calgary Regional Partnership -- CRP. The CRP is a strong coalition of municipalities that understands the synergistic relationship of local governments in the region. We have recently been taking a proactive approach to regional growth and planning issues. "

http://www.calgaryregion.ca/crp/AboutUs.aspx

[Wooster]

Originally Posted by Aegis

Why the change? and what is the Calgary Regional Partnership?

http://www.calgaryregion.ca/crp/AboutUs.aspx

[mersar]

Originally Posted by Aegis

Why the change? and what is the Calgary Regional Partnership?

Essentially because the province's terms for the green trip money say its to be shared within the region, and this is just the city playing nice. Likely if the city went alone and proposed using up a significant amount of the funding without the CRP's agreement the province would say no. So someone realized this and decided we'd better reword the request to make sure the CRP is involved.

[Aegis]

Originally Posted by LFRENCH

"We are the Calgary Regional Partnership -- CRP. The CRP is a strong coalition of municipalities that understands the synergistic relationship of local governments in the region. We have recently been taking a proactive approach to regional growth and planning issues. "

http://www.calgaryregion.ca/crp/AboutUs.aspx

I now understand why the change was made, but it seems unnecessary. What business is it of these small towns how our LRT is aligned? Seems like unnecessary red tape.

[mersar]

Originally Posted by Aegis

I now understand why the change was made, but it seems unnecessary. What business is it of these small towns how our LRT is aligned? Seems like unnecessary red tape.

The strings are quiet necessary though. Its not so much that they are saying where the LRT runs, rather they are saying they are OK with Calgary spending X of the Y dollars in the Calgary regions share of the funding.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by mersar

The strings are quiet necessary though. Its not so much that they are saying where the LRT runs, rather they are saying they are OK with Calgary spending X of the Y dollars in the Calgary regions share of the funding.

While I see the importance of regional planning, I think we might be putting the horse before the cart if we go too far in terms of regional transit before the LRT system is implemented. The LRT system should come first, and then regional transit. I hope the CRP sees it this way too.

[Policy Wonk]

I don't think it is an either-or and it will come sooner than most people would even imagine. Once the ridiculous Blue 22 project is killed for good in Toronto SNC-Lavalin is going to take the show on the road and launch a commuter service in Calgary using the refurbished Budd RDC's that would have been used for Blue 22.

[Me&You]

Originally Posted by fusili

While I see the importance of regional planning, I think we might be putting the horse before the cart if we go too far in terms of regional transit before the LRT system is implemented. The LRT system should come first, and then regional transit. I hope the CRP sees it this way too.

It's not that they're planning for regional transit, but that they are using regional money for Calgary transit... so it needs the approval of the region.

[jeffwhit]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

I don't think it is an either-or and it will come sooner than most people would even imagine. Once the ridiculous Blue 22 project is killed for good in Toronto SNC-Lavalin is going to take the show on the road and launch a commuter service in Calgary using the refurbished Budd RDC's that would have been used for Blue 22.

Really? Do you think commuter rail is that close?

[You Need A Thneed]

Saddletowne Station:



Whitehorn Station:


MKWW Pedestrian Bridge:


Sorry, iPhone quality.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by Me&You

It's not that they're planning for regional transit, but that they are using regional money for Calgary transit... so it needs the approval of the region.

No, I understand that. It just might be a problem tying money for Calgary transit improvements to a regional decision process. What if the CRP says no?

[halifaxboyns]

A regional rail system is difficult to implement when rail has competing interests. CP can easily say no; they are under no obligation to say yes at all.

But there can be political pressure put on them to say yes.

This is the same issue that Halifax is having with the regional rail debate there and with CN. For years, Peter Kelly (then mayor of the town of Bedford and now HRM mayor) wanted regional rail to service Bedford and Sackville to get people out of cars and into trains to the downtown station and then bus routes to ferry people onto the major employment centres and the downtown core (Halifax's train station is on the extreme south side of downtown and not in the actual core).

The problem has been CN and the control of the rail line through Halifax. It was originally dual track; but because CN realigned it's routing system - they reduced the number of freight trains out of Halifax to 1 per day. So they removed the second track from the south end out into the rail yard in Rockingham - really putting a kink into regional rail. They've also never been too happy with the idea and have placed insane conditions on the operation like they have to be the ones doing all the train maintenance and be the ones to pick the train cars that operate. I can see them saying they would do the maintenance of the track - but picking the car? Come on.

Right now; sitting in a rail yard in Moncton are about 24 BUDD RDC cars (the self propelled) owned by Via rail (much the same trains that operate on the Victoria rail line). They have replaced the engines with high efficency ones and redone the inside of the cars for regional rail use - mainly because HRM had interest. Because of CN's delays; they have never been bought and just sit there.

If the Calgary Region wanted the implement a regional rail system - those 24 cars are sitting there; ready to go. It's not much; but it's a start and they could easily service a route up to Banff during peak tourist season. Plus since they have their own engines, they don't need the big engines at the front!

[Ferreth]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

[...]
If the Calgary Region wanted the implement a regional rail system - those 24 cars are sitting there; ready to go. It's not much; but it's a start and they could easily service a route up to Banff during peak tourist season. Plus since they have their own engines, they don't need the big engines at the front!

I would pay good money to Ride a Budd car to Banff in the summer, and I'm not even a tourist!

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by fusili

No, I understand that. It just might be a problem tying money for Calgary transit improvements to a regional decision process. What if the CRP says no?

Blame the PCs. Making Green Trip funds regional might make sense in Edmonton but it does not make sense in Calgary. Well it might make sense politically but not practically. 800 million spent on transit in Calgary can seriously reduce traffic congestion and get a lot of people out of cars; it is adding essential infrastructure while benefitting the environment which is the entire point of the program. Busses to the bedroom towns really just makes sprawl marginally more attractive while allowing the province to look like it is accomplishing something for the voters outside of the cities.

[DarkKeyo]

Originally Posted by mersar

Small note on the SE LRT from council meeting tonight, a minor amendment was made to the request from council for administration to undertake the pre-study work for the SE LRT, with the amendment now requiring both the Calgary Regional Partnership and the province to sign on, before it was just the city and the province.

Good to see that they're doing the pre-study work. Glad to see it get started. After that, I assume it will go through a design process similar to the West LRT? Where various groups and people can have their input? I'm not expecting something like BestWestLRT and their horde of zombies, since the route follows a rail line through Inglewood and Ogden... but I would like to make my argument that making the line just a bit longer, to Calgary Tower and to McKenzie Towne, has a big payoff in ridership and in not having to funnel bus routes and park-and-riders from all over the SE to the end of half of the line. I'd also like to see a detailed set of route plans, since all I've seen have been route options.

As for Regional Rail, let's do the regional buses first and see if anyone uses them. No sense in spending money on commuter trains till after that.

[Vascilli]

So what happened to those Nova buses that the City ordered?

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by DarkKeyo

Good to see that they're doing the pre-study work. Glad to see it get started. After that, I assume it will go through a design process similar to the West LRT? Where various groups and people can have their input? I'm not expecting something like BestWestLRT and their horde of zombies, since the route follows a rail line through Inglewood and Ogden... but I would like to make my argument that making the line just a bit longer, to Calgary Tower and to McKenzie Towne, has a big payoff in ridership and in not having to funnel bus routes and park-and-riders from all over the SE to the end of half of the line. I'd also like to see a detailed set of route plans, since all I've seen have been route options.

As for Regional Rail, let's do the regional buses first and see if anyone uses them. No sense in spending money on commuter trains till after that.

The BUDD RDC cars I mentioned earlier (in Moncton) at last check were going for 2 Million a piece. So buses would be cheaper to start off with...but still 24 cars @ 2 million - 48 isn't too bad?

[SubwayRev]

Originally Posted by Bassic Lab

Blame the PCs. Making Green Trip funds regional might make sense in Edmonton but it does not make sense in Calgary. Well it might make sense politically but not practically. 800 million spent on transit in Calgary can seriously reduce traffic congestion and get a lot of people out of cars; it is adding essential infrastructure while benefitting the environment which is the entire point of the program. Busses to the bedroom towns really just makes sprawl marginally more attractive while allowing the province to look like it is accomplishing something for the voters outside of the cities.

Couldn't agree more. It's disgusting that two cities which make up 65% of the population are needing the approval of tiny, rural communities to spend transportation monies.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

I don't think it is an either-or and it will come sooner than most people would even imagine. Once the ridiculous Blue 22 project is killed for good in Toronto SNC-Lavalin is going to take the show on the road and launch a commuter service in Calgary using the refurbished Budd RDC's that would have been used for Blue 22.

That project isn't going anywhere - the SC Lavalin contract I am not sure really exists anymore however.

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

A regional rail system is difficult to implement when rail has competing interests. CP can easily say no; they are under no obligation to say yes at all.

But there can be political pressure put on them to say yes.

This is the same issue that Halifax is having with the regional rail debate there and with CN. For years, Peter Kelly (then mayor of the town of Bedford and now HRM mayor) wanted regional rail to service Bedford and Sackville to get people out of cars and into trains to the downtown station and then bus routes to ferry people onto the major employment centres and the downtown core (Halifax's train station is on the extreme south side of downtown and not in the actual core).

The problem has been CN and the control of the rail line through Halifax. It was originally dual track; but because CN realigned it's routing system - they reduced the number of freight trains out of Halifax to 1 per day. So they removed the second track from the south end out into the rail yard in Rockingham - really putting a kink into regional rail. They've also never been too happy with the idea and have placed insane conditions on the operation like they have to be the ones doing all the train maintenance and be the ones to pick the train cars that operate. I can see them saying they would do the maintenance of the track - but picking the car? Come on.

Right now; sitting in a rail yard in Moncton are about 24 BUDD RDC cars (the self propelled) owned by Via rail (much the same trains that operate on the Victoria rail line). They have replaced the engines with high efficency ones and redone the inside of the cars for regional rail use - mainly because HRM had interest. Because of CN's delays; they have never been bought and just sit there.

If the Calgary Region wanted the implement a regional rail system - those 24 cars are sitting there; ready to go. It's not much; but it's a start and they could easily service a route up to Banff during peak tourist season. Plus since they have their own engines, they don't need the big engines at the front!

CP has already said if there is enough money to increase track capacity so that freight operations are minimally impaired they are fine with regional rail. Spending $500 million on rail upgrades to run peak commuter like service to Cochrane doesn't seem like the wisest thing however - to justify the cost I would guess you would need 30 minute headways at least.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby

That project isn't going anywhere - the SC Lavalin contract I am not sure really exists anymore however.




CP has already said if there is enough money to increase track capacity so that freight operations are minimally impaired they are fine with regional rail. Spending $500 million on rail upgrades to run peak commuter like service to Cochrane doesn't seem like the wisest thing however - to justify the cost I would guess you would need 30 minute headways at least.

$500 million seems a bit much for upgrades? I mean yes, you would need platforms at some locations and the RDC cars I mentioned are 2 mil a pop - but even with the upgrades it would cost that much? That must have to do with more of their freight operation than a regional transit system.

I'd also suggest that on some days it extend to Banff as a tourist train.