[Halifax] Nova Centre | 65-58-58 m | 16-15-14 fl | Completed

[someone123]

The "industry in decline" argument is awfully vague and it's really obvious that it might not hold locally, particularly when you have a city with facilities not up to par.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

A stadium could be included in Shannon Park - thus being serviced with high speed ferry; so you could actually lump the two together from an infrastructure perspective.

As you say, you are not a sports fan - that is not to be condemned; but a stadium is like a convention centre, putting it in the wrong location will result in failure of the facility and any team that locates there. Good public transit to such a facility will be critical to its success - therefore it can't just be lumped together with a high speed ferry, it needs to be carefully thought out.

Regarding the list - there are infrastructure projects (roads, ferries, bridges) and quality of life projects - example arenas, stadiums, libraries, performing arts centres ... Lumping them together in the same list is a mistake in my opinion. Quality of life facilities attract people to the city and help to retain them. Infrastructure facilities are a necessity for the city to function. In my opinion both are required.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by someone123

The "industry in decline" argument is awfully vague and it's really obvious that it might not hold locally, particularly when you have a city with facilities not up to par.

I don't buy this argument either. We are in the middle of a global slowdown. I am sure that is the reason for the global decline in convention goers, not because of widespread teleconferencing, as opponents want to argue. Are people really going to choose sitting at a computer over traveling to distant cities and meeting in person with others. If that is the case, then I am worried about the society that will result (as I sit on my computer typing this) .

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

As you say, you are not a sports fan - that is not to be condemned; but a stadium is like a convention centre, putting it in the wrong location will result in failure of the facility and any team that locates there. Good public transit to such a facility will be critical to its success - therefore it can't just be lumped together with a high speed ferry, it needs to be carefully thought out.

Regarding the list - there are infrastructure projects (roads, ferries, bridges) and quality of life projects - example arenas, stadiums, libraries, performing arts centres ... Lumping them together in the same list is a mistake in my opinion. Quality of life facilities attract people to the city and help to retain them. Infrastructure facilities are a necessity for the city to function. In my opinion both are required.

While I agree with you; most cities lump the projects together - because from their perspectives it's spending money to build something. I don't disagree with you that they should be looked at differently, but typically governments look at priority projects first (usually infrastructure for transportation, education and health) and quality of life projects end up near the bottom. I don't always agree with it; but when it comes to building a hospital over a stadium I will always be on the side of a hospital.

That being said - I think the stadium could work out in Shannon Park; assuming that the redevelopment scheme for the neighbourhood includes good public transportation links for when the stadium would come online - not for after. So if the stadium opened today; I would want the road network, bus network and any other transportation links that would serve the site in place and operating at the same time (so a ferry terminal with park and ride built and operating and new bus service established). This would go for any location really. One other option that I had thought about but not considered feasable was to build it somewhere on the waterfront on fill land - much like what BEdford was going to do with waterfront master plan. You could either do that in Downtown Dartmouth (assuming the height of the stadium could clear the CN tracks and didn't protrude through a viewplane) and extend into the harbour (already existing transit infrastructure there). Or do it on the Halifax - like my diagrams in the stadium discussion show. We are drifting off the topic here - I'll post something in the correct thread.

[fenwick16]

I agree with you here, but Halifax has plans to build a new central library. There has been talk about a new Metro Centre. I would have a separate list of quality of life projects such as:

1) A new Central Library (simply because it is so far along, I would have picked an outdoor stadium first)
2) the first stage of an outdoor stadium with 15,000 seats. But have plans for 40,000 (in the future when needed)
3) A Performing Arts Theater seating 1,500 - 2,000
4) A much larger Maritime Museum of the Atlantic
5) A new Metro Centre seating 15,000

Who knows how many decades it will be before all of these are built but I think eventually they will be.

[someone123]

Well, the library is already funded and in progress.

My guess is that if the stadium is built it will start at a reasonable size. 15,000 seats isn't really any "closer" than nothing since it is not terribly useful for anything major, such as the CFL or major concerts. Because of the way federal funding works it would also be much easier to get money for something that looks significant - it could be sold as a stadium for the whole region, which is what it would be.

The Nova Centre proposal is similar. It's big enough to bring in some federal funding that would otherwise not come to Halifax. That is one of the big things the city loses out on because there are so few major projects. The province will only be paying for a small fraction of the development.

[fenwick16]

Because a 15,000 seat stadium would have room on the field for about 20,000 - 25,000 people (5 - 6 square feet per person), a 15,000 seat stadium could potentially hold 40,000 for concerts with some permanent washrooms for performers and concert goers.

The Pan-Am stadium proposal for Hamilton is for 15,000 seats, with future expansion being funded by the city and the Hamilton Tiger-cats.

In Halifax, starting with 15,000 seats removes some of the risk of having a large stadium and no CFL team (Moncton has a 20,000 seat stadium and no current CFL team).

[sdm]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

3) A Performing Arts Theater seating 1,500 - 2,000
4) A much larger Maritime Museum of the Atlantic


Who knows how many decades it will be before all of these are built but I think eventually they will be.

Both those elements were part of the Queenslanding proposal, which i might add was proposed in 2005, just to illustrate how things progress around here when there is elements of government involved.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by sdm

Both those elements were part of the Queenslanding proposal, which i might add was proposed in 2005, just to illustrate how things progress around here when there is elements of government involved.

I hope that the Queens Landing project proceeds. To be honest, I am not sure if the Maritime Museum of the Atlantic is already at that location and they are considering expanding it or if they are considering a completely new building? I didn't know that it included a 1,500 - 2,000 seat performing arts centre (this would be a large theatre similar to the Princess of Wales Theatre and others in the Toronto area).

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I don't buy this argument either. We are in the middle of a global slowdown. I am sure that is the reason for the global decline in convention goers, not because of widespread teleconferencing, as opponents want to argue. Are people really going to chose sitting at a computer over traveling to distant cities and meeting in person with others. If that is the case, then I am worried about the society that will result (as I sit on my computer typing this) .

Its not even that bad... trade shows are a great way for SMEs to do low cost per transaction deals and the industry isn't down everywhere.

Actually, the obstructionists would be right if they were talking about a place like Detroit. Halifax is a completely different story in terms of at least attracting people on the level of destination status. Also, we are a military/government city and that draws not only industrial clusters for procurement but also these type of shows.

I don't see how it is a waste of money or could even be a boondoogle with the amount of federal funds. Do the obstuctionist not realize that we are getting a good chunk of the funding from basically everybody in the country?

This is a good deal for Halifax, even if we don't see dramatic growth in the convention industry. By the nature of the business cycle this sort of thing will recover. I know people make the newspaper analogy, but trade shows and conventions have become really great tools for startups in the modern era and technology has had a big impact on the success of these shows.

Furthermore, the things that people have been saying about no local investment resulting from these types of shows is totally false. Even if one sales deal is made with someone in halifax, that constitutes some sort of local value creation. Especially with the universities, local impact can definitely result in cities that host AGMs, Trade Shows, Industry Conventions, you name it.

[Precambrian]

I feel that more people are becoming aware of the damages caused by HT, Save the View, and other anti-development nazis are causing to the city, and the more people realize this, the better. Kings Wharf is a go, and you see people hanging out watching the construction and feeling excited according to one forumer. The Trillium, under construction, is bringing people out into the park across from the site and they have a positive view on the project. These nimbys, to me, plainly put, are enemies of Halifax. They have no desire to see progress, and a future for the city and it's youth. To me they are selfish. I feel now if STV stops this convention centre, the uproar over this will send them into the ground. People want change, and if this is denied then more people will realize that Save the View and Heritage trust are anything but their cause. If I lived in Hali, I'd be doing as much research so when it comes time to meetings and hearings, I'd ask questions that would make these people sound like a fool.
Time to give these people an eviction notice.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by Precambrian

I feel that more people are becoming aware of the damages caused by HT, Save the View, and other anti-development nazis are causing to the city, and the more people realize this, the better. Kings Wharf is a go, and you see people hanging out watching the construction and feeling excited according to one forumer. The Trillium, under construction, is bringing people out into the park across from the site and they have a positive view on the project. These nimbys, to me, plainly put, are enemies of Halifax. They have no desire to see progress, and a future for the city and it's youth. To me they are selfish. I feel now if STV stops this convention centre, the uproar over this will send them into the ground. People want change, and if this is denied then more people will realize that Save the View and Heritage trust are anything but their cause. If I lived in Hali, I'd be doing as much research so when it comes time to meetings and hearings, I'd ask questions that would make these people sound like a fool.
Time to give these people an eviction notice.

I could not have put it better myself.
One of the things which I've always believed (and said) whenever these groups get up to the microphone is that they never really explain their position. They say that something is bad - but why? I've screamed at my tv and my computer monitor for someone on council to simply ask the white elephant question - why?

The better question for the convention centre is this: You (Mr. Pacey and et al) were around when the viewplanes legislation was passed correct? If so; why didn't you say something then or champion harder then to save the entire view? Why do you believe that the entire view should be saved? What happens if this convention centre is built? And how do you respond to the hundreds, maybe thousands (yes I know - that's a stretch) of people who could be employed for this project - who may not otherwise find work? What do you say to them?

These serious questions need to be asked of them. I'd love to get Peggy Cameron and Barb Miller at the podium and ask them 'what do you say to the youth of Nova Scotia - who dream, no, cling to the hope of graduating and finding work here; but have their hopes dashed because you continually oppose every development that moves this city forward? How do you respond to them?

Oh to be a regional councillor for that meeting.

[halifaxboyns]

I found this in the Herald's letters and feed back section:
Lack of vision plagues Halifax
Recognize city as cultural, economic driver of province
By GORD WHITTAKER
Sat, Jul 24 - 4:53 AM
The endless debate around the proposed Halifax convention centre ("the centre") and the apparent lack of public consensus is a result of what plagues this city: a lack of a strong and cohesive vision.

Of course, the centre must pass the economic smell test and public debate is healthy and necessary. Regardless of your stance on the issue, the dialogue should start from a common understanding of Halifax’s vision and its importance to the province. This goes beyond the economics of the centre and its impact on a moderately interesting view. The centre’s decision (and others) would be more straightforward if Halifax had a clear and confident vision. Healthy debates would continue but at least we could answer a fundamental question: Does it contribute to the city’s vision?

We moved here in 1996 from Vancouver because Halifax was a city full of potential and evolving into a destination of choice for business, culture, entrepreneurs and families. It has so many strengths, including its location in a beautiful province, a rich culture and history, a diverse and relatively protected employment base, its status as a capital city and regional economic hub, and being home to numerous universities.

Fourteen years later, I have seen steady deterioration of our downtown core while reading repetitive articles pitting "heritage" against "progress."

Both our heritage and progress have lost out during this time as we debate without a vision. This will continue until we answer an essential question: What kind of Halifax do we want?

This city can retain its rich history and move forward. Our leaders need to see the value of a vibrant, liveable downtown that embraces progress and shows off its heritage.

We all must recognize that Halifax drives the cultural and economic engines of Nova Scotia which benefit the communities beyond HRM. We must focus our strategies to support our strengths and maintain relevance amongst our younger population. We need to retain and motivate our creative class, provide opportunities for our children and attract new people to this great city.

We need to promote Nova Scotia as a province of the future.

The centre presents a timely and critical opportunity to send a strong message that we recognize the importance of this city and are looking forward for the long-term benefit of the province.

Let’s move beyond "potential" and towards a strong and cohesive vision.

Gord Whitakker lives in Halifax.
(from the sunday herald).

I happen to agree with some of what he's saying - Halifax doesn't seem to have a vision of what it wants to be. While I agree with many that the HT and STV have been obstructionist - if you create a true vision and stick to it; their power will weaken. This is part of asking the important questions (often the white elements in the room). It makes their answers on the questions weak and the fact you call them out on it; strong.

I believe HRM's vision definately involve being the hub of commercial development in the region. So what if oil is moving to NFLD - what happens when its gone? There are still plenty of others that want to play in our waters. The key here; is go green. We got that daewoo plant - that's a great start. Now; focus on more green related jobs. Get the plants that manufacture the parts - this could support a better port in Halifax or that new one I've read about. This could also support more trains for CN - which will make them more money (I can hear their lips licking with excitement already).

Focus on getting tidal power jobs too - parts; assembly, expertise. What's the solar map of Nova Scotia like? Are we good for solar or bad?

The focus should be on green industry first; oil and gas next; existing economic factors (tourism, banking, government) and then transportation (did you know YHZ is the closest airport on the European circle route? They could learn from YVR on how to make YHZ into a gateway very simply - which could relieve traffic on airports that are getting pinned in - like Boston, New York and Washington).

All the green jobs may not come to HRM exclusively - but for every one job that's created (1 FTE); the spin off is usually 4 to 5 in the service sector. If Nova Scotia could land 5,000 jobs in green industry; the spin off becomes 20,000 in the service sector. That could be good for NS and good for HRM - because the companies should be convinced to HQ in Halifax. Plus; this would get up the manufacturing numbers - hey fenwick?

[fenwick16]

I enjoyed Gord Whittaker's opinion. It is enjoyable to hear from someone who moved to Halifax from another part of the country. In my case, I agree with everything that he said. I also agree with you Halifaxboyns about creating green jobs, I could include hydro from the Bay of Fundy.

I think Halifax will be the centre of the Maritime Provinces for many generations to come. It certainly needs a better vision of that role. It must also have a better vision as one cohesive municipality - the HRM. It has been several years since amalgamation so this is likely already partially achieved.

[planarchy]

I don't think this has been posted yet:


Crunch time for civic spirit

RALPH SURETTE
Chronicle Herald / Sat, Jul 24 - 12:51 PM


The proposal for a new convention centre complex in downtown Halifax has been delivered, and government is chewing over the implications. Infrastructure Minister Bill Estabrooks has said that by the fall a decision will be made whether something will be built — if so, what, and if not, what the next step will be.

In deciding, the government will also take into account the interests of "all Nova Scotians," Estabrooks said, considering that a public investment possibly north of $140 million will be required.

The interests of all Nova Scotians adds a certain dimension to the argument as the decision-making process percolates. Halifax — Halifax Regional Municipality — is to Nova Scotia as Toronto is to Ontario, hugely dominant in every way, with half the provincial population within its sphere. The vast majority of us go there sometime — even if it’s by ambulance. Having it work properly is in everybody’s interest.

Assuming we have $150 million to spend on the metropolis, what would be "all Nova Scotians’" first choice? I doubt that a new convention centre would rank very high, even if the general economics of convention centres in North America weren’t in fact spectacularly bleak.

If the question was properly put, what would rank first, I suspect, would be a light rail system. Even the beginnings of one would cast Halifax into a higher category as a functioning city — not to mention being beneficial on the energy front and putting an end to those continuous battles over street-widenings to accommodate more cars so draining to the civic spirit. As it is, downtown Halifax is a place as much to be avoided as anything because getting there and getting around is so awkward.

Although hugely dominant in Nova Scotia, in one essential dysfunction Halifax resembles more the small towns of Nova Scotia than the chain of larger Canadian cities to which it logically belongs. Take, typically, Yarmouth, near where I live. In its commercial life, it has become essentially a mall with a hollowed-out downtown attached. In Halifax it’s a dozen malls, but the principle is roughly the same. Except that in cities the size of Halifax, that can be addressed with an effective public transportation system. As soon as getting downtown becomes easy and hassle-free, people follow and so does investment in the downtown, as well as along the rail or subway line.

Are we anywhere near even thinking about this, except in the occasional abortive spate and amid the near-comical antics of HRM municipal council? Should a larger urban vision under provincial initiative be on the government’s mind as it contemplates putting big money into a convention centre? I would think so. Justifying this huge public investment to the rest of the province will require more than the tortured figures the proponents of the project have come up with so far.

There was another unconvincing study this week purporting to show the positive economics of the convention centre — a tax bonanza of $170 million over 10 years, essentially repaying the public investment. Critics say the projected visitor figures to get to that conclusion are grossly over-optimistic. The steady decline of convention business North America-wide since the early 1990s, through boom and bust alike, indicates that it’s on the downside of larger socio-economic changes, and not likely to flourish even if the economy does.

The emotional part of this argument is aesthetic in nature. For proponents, leaving that empty lot in the heart of downtown is just one civic embarrassment too many, while others have found their calling in protecting the views of the harbour from Citadel Hill. For the opponents, there’s also the attachment to the human scale of the area as it exists, with the first round of plans denounced as forbidding concrete with nothing for the pedestrian.

The bigger challenge here is to come up with something broadly acceptable that would boost the civic life-force and go some way to reducing the endless battles over development in downtown Halifax. The first burden of proof is with the developer, Rank Inc. Has it come up with something that does in fact respect the pedestrian character of downtown, doesn’t make unrealistic assumptions about the economics of convention centres, and requires less — or at least more profitable — public investment? I would think those are the points the minister would be insisting on as he assesses the project, meanwhile keeping an eye on the civic future and what the rest of the province will say about spending all that money downtown in times of high austerity.

[fenwick16]

I think that Ralph Surette is the epitome of narrow-mindedness and I wonder why the Chronicle Herald continues to publish his opinions.

We are in the middle of a world-wide economic slowdown; this is the reason for the slowdown in tourism and convention goers. These economic slowdowns are cyclic; if Halifax waits until the economy rebounds then by the time the convention centre is built we will be in the middle of another economic slowdown. Now is the time to build, as the North American economy is showing some signs of recovery.

One of the things that Halifax and Nova Scotia can succeed at (the convention business) is an item that Ralph Surette strongly opposes. Halifax and Nova Scotia already does well with the tourism industry and will undoubtedly succeed with the new convention centre. I have been to many conventions over the past 20 years and I don't see this decline in the convention business that people keep referring to. Teleconferencing has been around for decades now and it hasn't resulted in sales people not visiting clients, and people not traveling to trade shows at convention centres. If Ralph Surette regularly attended conventions and trade shows then he would understand the importance of this business to Halifax and Nova Scotia (and in fact the entire Maritime region).

It is time for Haligonians and Nova Scotians to say NO! to people like Ralph Surette and his backward views, and instead to have confidence in the future of Halifax and Nova Scotia. Halifax has a very educated workforce, these people have to be kept in Nova Scotia if the economy is to benefit.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I think that Ralph Surette is the epitome of narrow-mindedness and I wonder why the Chronicle Herald continues to publish his opinions.

He is an old crony of Herald editor Dan Leger's, so that explains it. Leger himself is pretty left-wing, but nothing like Surrette. The other one who needs to be booted from the Herald's roster of columnists is Rachel Brighton, who has a regular Sunday space that is allegedly about business, but never has anything good to say about it and is even more left-wing than Surrette. Both need to go.

[Empire]

The message Peter Kelly sent to the world when he killed the Commonwealth Games (in a back room) is that we are a town that isn’t willing to work hard enough to cease an opportunity that could provide huge dividends for the community. If we have no faith in our own abilities then everything becomes a hard sell to the outside investment community. I haven’t seen many editorials lauding Kelly’s fiscal wisdom or how his decision has proven to be a bonus for taxpayers. For years to come it will be very difficult to attract a sporting event of that magnitude. If the Trade Centre is killed, the same message will be sent once again. We have gone 20 years with virtually no growth in spite of significant potential. The Trade Centre enhances the “Financial Centre” theme that Rodney MacDonald was trying to promote. Millions of taxpayers $$ have been spent on plants and businesses in Nova Scotia that have not panned out. That doesn’t mean we should give up. The only way to break the dependence on federal transfer payments is to work harder to attract investment and that is not done by sitting back and waiting for a solution to come calling or by rejecting big opportunities.

What Halifax is missing:
- Stadium
- Large conference centre
- Light rail
- Subway line - Robie, Barrington/ Gottingen, Quinpool, Spring Garden (30 years from now/ and yes you can bore through bedrock)
- Performing Arts Centre (Waterfront)
- True heritage district
- Select sites for tall office towers downtown
- Bike lanes
- Aquarium (should be built at BIO)
- National scale marine museum (Ottawa funding)
- Better use of transit (more transit hubs with downtown shuttles)
- Water taxis
- Access to McNab's – low impact Stanley Park type urban use
- Forward thinking administration

[fenwick16]

I agree with your list and assessment of the Commonwealth Games fallout as hurting Halifax's image. The Commonwealth Games were mismanaging, and it is my opinion that the budget was purposely inflated in order to get additional federal funding but instead it backfired and drove away supporters. I also think that organizers purposely kept details confidential in order not to give the opposition ammunition but again that strategy backfired. In the case of the new convention/trade centre it seems as though the backers have learned from the Commonwealth games fiasco and are releasing the various reports and keeping the public better informed. Also the supporters are better organized with a petition in favour. I didn't see that type of organization of supporters with the Commonwealth Games.

The tarnished image of Halifax could quickly be recovered if Canada wins the 2015 FIFA World Woman's Cup and Halifax becomes one of the several host cities (Hamilton will have the Pan-Am Games that year so they might not be in contention). If Canada gets the bid then I think that Halifax will be mentioned as one of the host cities (there could be 8 Canadian host cities as in the 1999 US tournament - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_FIFA_Women%27s_World_Cup - for example Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg, Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal and Halifax). This would be a good excuse for the federal government to fund a stadium in Halifax and would be far less expensive than the Commonwealth Games. Maybe in the end, losing the Commonwealth Games will turn out to be for the best.

Also, concerning your point about tunneling through bedrock, this is a good point - I would think that tunneling through bedrock would actually be better than tunneling through softer ground since the bedrock will provide better structural support for the tunnel and any buildings above. Maybe Halifax could have a small underground city similar to Montreal's underground city. In parts of the city it could just be a single track to keep the cost down (and then expand it latter if necessary). Having a short subway would get large numbers of buses off the roads and encourage increased ridership. If Halifax gets a subway, then I would travel there just to try out the subway.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I agree with your list and assessment of the Commonwealth Games fallout as hurting Halifax's image. The Commonwealth Games were mismanaging, and it is my opinion that the budget was purposely inflated in order to get additional federal funding but instead it backfired and drove away supporters. I also think that organizers purposely kept details confidential in order not to give the opposition ammunition but again that strategy backfired. In the case of the new convention/trade centre it seems as though the backers have learned from the Commonwealth games fiasco and are releasing the various reports and keeping the public better informed. Also the supporters are better organized with a petition in favour. I didn't see that type of organization of supporters with the Commonwealth Games.

The tarnished image of Halifax could quickly be recovered if Canada wins the 2015 FIFA World Woman's Cup and Halifax becomes one of the several host cities (Hamilton will have the Pan-Am Games that year so they might not be in contention). If Canada gets the bid then I think that Halifax will be mentioned as one of the host cities (there could be 8 Canadian host cities as in the 1999 US tournament - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_FIFA_Women%27s_World_Cup - for example Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg, Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal and Halifax). This would be a good excuse for the federal government to fund a stadium in Halifax and would be far less expensive than the Commonwealth Games. Maybe in the end, losing the Commonwealth Games will turn out to be for the best.

Also, concerning your point about tunneling through bedrock, this is a good point - I would think that tunneling through bedrock would actually be better than tunneling through softer ground since the bedrock will provide better structural support for the tunnel and any buildings above. Maybe Halifax could have a small underground city similar to Montreal's underground city. In parts of the city it could just be a single track to keep the cost down (and then expand it latter if necessary). Having a short subway would get large numbers of buses off the roads and encourage increased ridership. If Halifax gets a subway, then I would travel there just to try out the subway.

Start with a twin line from the Seawall to the end of Gottingen. Hub would be Scotia Square. The line would be connected to a LRT line through the rail cut. The train station would be the first stop. This project would need to be co-funded by the Feds under the guise of necessary infrastructure for Regional/hub/capital cities.

Enter at Seawall behind train station.