Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[WarrenC12]

Our good friend is at it again:

http://railforthevalley.wordpress.com/20...ail-not-skytrain-down-business-corridor/

I left a comment about construction woes for the Toronto LRT line but it was deleted.

I like Donna Dobo's comment.. she wants it all. Like one of those old ladies at Safeway "I want all of my groceries in one bag... but not too heavy!!"

[mr.x]

Just posted comments in both the blog and in the Province.

[jsbertram]

Obviously nobody has explained to them that digging up Broadway to put LRT on the surface is equally as disruptive as digging up Broadway to put in a Skytrain tunnel. Whichever type of system you install, you'll be digging up the street to move power conduits, sewer lines, water lines, cable conduits, natural gas lines, Telus conduits (I know I'm forgetting something) so they aren't under the LRT tracks or in the way of the Skytrain tunnels.

Thats before any track construction happens.

If you're building surface LRT, the street gets dug to a depth of around 10 feet to build the required structure for the tracks and signalling system. If you're building Skytrain tunnels, you're now digging down 30, 40, 50 feet or more to build the tunnel and then covering it up again (a la Cambie). In either case, you have months of construction equipment and supplies on the street and sidewalk, no on-street parking, and no stopping in construction zones (other than the buses which will still be running).

Since the street is being torn up, you will get the "While we're doing this, can we also ...." suggestions:

a) add /remove /relocate the trees
b) add/ remove street parking
c) add /remove /relocate bus stops
d) add /remove /relocate truck loading zones
e) widen / narrow / straighten / level out the sidewalks
f) add /remove /relocate pedestrian crossings
g) add /remove traffic lights and/or left-turn lanes
h) add /remove /relocate the rush-hour Diamond Lanes
I) add /remove /relocate Bike Lanes

which add to the cost & add extra time to finish the project.
(all 77 blocks of it)

Look how long it took to re-surface 10 blocks of Granville street. This didn't require major moves of power conduits, sewer lines, water lines, cable conduits, natural gas lines &tc. to make way for LRT tracks on Granville either. Just new sidewalks, curbs and asphalt. And some granite accents and fancy lighting. The new trolley wires are still being installed, but the trolleys won't be back on Granville until September (I think)

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Our good friend is at it again:

http://railforthevalley.wordpress.com/20...ail-not-skytrain-down-business-corridor/

I left a comment about construction woes for the Toronto LRT line but it was deleted.

I like Donna Dobo's comment.. she wants it all. Like one of those old ladies at Safeway "I want all of my groceries in one bag... but not too heavy!!"

So because other cities don't build a system like ours. It must mean that our system is no good as per zwei. Because everyone else has to be better than us.

There is one simple thing we have to remember. "You can please some of the people some of the time, but you can not please all of the people all of the time."

I do feel that if they did the construction in sections instead of doing it as one big massive project. It would be less disruptive. Example would be to work on the section between VCC-Clark and Fraser, then do it to Main then Cambie. It would be opened until the whole thing is completed. But at least if they have to do any digging there wouldn't be one massive trench or a station hole for a few years. This I feel was the biggest problem with the Canada Line. It wasn't the cut and cover. It was the fact they dug one massive hole and had that hole for 3 years. If they done a section and worked hard to get each section done in as short a time as possible. You wouldn't of had the hole as long as you did in the Cambie Village area. It may of taken longer overall in time for the thing to be completed though. Which we couldn't do because of the time constraint with the Olympics.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Our good friend is at it again:

http://railforthevalley.wordpress.com/20...ail-not-skytrain-down-business-corridor/

I left a comment about construction woes for the Toronto LRT line but it was deleted.

I like Donna Dobo's comment.. she wants it all. Like one of those old ladies at Safeway "I want all of my groceries in one bag... but not too heavy!!"

I thought there was some kind of consensus that a skytrain to UBC would be bored under 10th Avenue, leaving Broadway largely intact. (But not so nice for the residents of 10th, I'm sure) Anyway, if it IS in fact going to be Skytrain, and not a "ding ding" left-turn crusher (and don't forget KENNY),
then it seems logical that drilling the tube along 10th is the answer.

At least, a number of people here seemed to agree. Or am I wrong?

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

I thought there was some kind of consensus that a skytrain to UBC would be bored under 10th Avenue, leaving Broadway largely intact. (But not so nice for the residents of 10th, I'm sure) Anyway, if it IS in fact going to be Skytrain, and not a "ding ding" left-turn crusher (and don't forget KENNY),
then it seems logical that drilling the tube along 10th is the answer.

At least, a number of people here seemed to agree. Or am I wrong?

No I think you are right about that understanding. The city doesn't want cut and cover, and 10th Ave was the planned routing. But BARSTA doesn't let facts get in the way of their ranting.

[twoNeurons]

There's more or less a consensus here... but nothing's been decided. When city planners say broadway, they're generally talking about the corridor, which goes from 4th to 10th, i think

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

I thought there was some kind of consensus that a skytrain to UBC would be bored under 10th Avenue, leaving Broadway largely intact. (But not so nice for the residents of 10th, I'm sure) Anyway, if it IS in fact going to be Skytrain, and not a "ding ding" left-turn crusher (and don't forget KENNY),
then it seems logical that drilling the tube along 10th is the answer.

At least, a number of people here seemed to agree. Or am I wrong?

I don't understand why using TBM construction methods to build a SkyTrain tunnel under 10th Ave would even be noticed by residents & office workers in the area except for the individual blocks where the street needs to be opened up to dig down & build a station connected to the tunnels. For the other 65 blocks, it would be the same as what I experienced while standing in the lineup for the Commodore or any of the other Granville Party Street bars for the 5 years while the Canada Line was under construction. If you didn't notice that the single block between Georgia and Robson was dug up to build the new VCC station, you never would have known anything was being built under Granville (right under your feet) as the TBM tunnel was being built from False Creek to the Harbourfront.

If anything, you might feel the light rumble as the TBM machine grinds up the earth under the street as it passes close by your building, but at the usual pace of construction it will be further down your block within a day. For most people living or working on 10th Ave, the TBM passing by their building would be felt like a heavy truck rumbling by - except the TBM would be noticed only for the few hours when it is digging under the street closest to your building, whereas a heavy truck rumbling by your building may happen several times each hour and be a lot more noticeable & annoying.

[trofirhen]

From the above postings, could one assume that bored tunnel under 10th is the most logical way to go (it seems so, here) thereby leaving Broadway largely unmolested, and the merchants able to continue with their business?

Probably not, as one obstacle seems to rear its head after another, but here's hopin'.

[djh]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

Obviously nobody has explained to them that digging up Broadway to put LRT on the surface is equally as disruptive as digging up Broadway to put in a Skytrain tunnel. Whichever type of system you install, you'll be digging up the street to move power conduits, sewer lines, water lines, cable conduits, natural gas lines, Telus conduits (I know I'm forgetting something) so they aren't under the LRT tracks or in the way of the Skytrain tunnels.

Thats before any track construction happens.

If you're building surface LRT, the street gets dug to a depth of around 10 feet to build the required structure for the tracks and signalling system. If you're building Skytrain tunnels, you're now digging down 30, 40, 50 feet or more to build the tunnel and then covering it up again (a la Cambie). In either case, you have months of construction equipment and supplies on the street and sidewalk, no on-street parking, and no stopping in construction zones (other than the buses which will still be running).

Since the street is being torn up, you will get the "While we're doing this, can we also ...." suggestions:

a) add /remove /relocate the trees
b) add/ remove street parking
c) add /remove /relocate bus stops
d) add /remove /relocate truck loading zones
e) widen / narrow / straighten / level out the sidewalks
f) add /remove /relocate pedestrian crossings
g) add /remove traffic lights and/or left-turn lanes
h) add /remove /relocate the rush-hour Diamond Lanes
I) add /remove /relocate Bike Lanes

which add to the cost & add extra time to finish the project.
(all 77 blocks of it)

Look how long it took to re-surface 10 blocks of Granville street. This didn't require major moves of power conduits, sewer lines, water lines, cable conduits, natural gas lines &tc. to make way for LRT tracks on Granville either. Just new sidewalks, curbs and asphalt. And some granite accents and fancy lighting. The new trolley wires are still being installed, but the trolleys won't be back on Granville until September (I think)

JB, I think you need to cut and paste your post, verbatim, to the RailForTheValley and the Province threads.
You've hit the nail squarely on the head.

The only other thing that would make your post perfect would be some illustrations to show people what it looks like at certain stages of disruption (e.g., how many lanes would be closed-off, locations of storage, machinery, equipment, etc). That would be enough to show people who aren't quite getting their head around the issue - At-Grade Is Very Disruptive Too!

[WarrenC12]

There is another entry at Rail for the Valley on the BARSTA meeting and LRT along Broadway. The idea of street level rail on Broadway in any form is simply ludicrous. Can't say anything else about it...

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

There is another entry at Rail for the Valley on the BARSTA meeting and LRT along Broadway. The idea of street level rail on Broadway in any form is simply ludicrous. Can't say anything else about it...

May I ask a question, please: What does BARSTA stand for?

Also, if the tunnel-boring along 10th is raised, it might make them shut the freak up !!

The whole issue of Broadway being either dug up, or ripped up SHOULD and COULD be made a non-issue, with a little subterfuge and savvy. (Like making the 10th Ave TBM the obvious solution)

Geez, I hope those brickheads chill out. Thanks for your time.

[djh]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

From the above postings, could one assume that bored tunnel under 10th is the most logical way to go (it seems so, here) thereby leaving Broadway largely unmolested, and the merchants able to continue with their business?

Probably not, as one obstacle seems to rear its head after another, but here's hopin'.

Most logical, yes. Cheapest, No.

If cut and cover along 10th is considered, I wouldn't have a big problem with it. I lived through cut and cover along Cambie and had to walk out of first my condo (at 8th) and now my house (17th) straight into it for a few years. I'm sure the people on 10th can deal with it too, especially since they will still have access to their homes via the alleyways, and will no doubt be getting off 10th ASAP in any journeys they make.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by djh

Most logical, yes. Cheapest, No.

If cut and cover along 10th is considered, I wouldn't have a big problem with it. I lived through cut and cover along Cambie and had to walk out of first my condo (at 8th) and now my house (17th) straight into it for a few years. I'm sure the people on 10th can deal with it too, especially since they will still have access to their homes via the alleyways, and will no doubt be getting off 10th ASAP in any journeys they make.

Even so, cut-and-cover along 10th Avenue would take the wind out the Broadway flapheads, wouldn't it? (hmmm or would it?)

[TransitJack]

These 120 business owners seem to think that a $2B + spent on a line should service their operations. I think they need to understand that most commuters on Broadway care more about getting from A - B and not leisurely window shopping from the bus/train.

[racc]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

Look how long it took to re-surface 10 blocks of Granville street. This didn't require major moves of power conduits, sewer lines, water lines, cable conduits, natural gas lines &tc. to make way for LRT tracks on Granville either. Just new sidewalks, curbs and asphalt. And some granite accents and fancy lighting. The new trolley wires are still being installed, but the trolleys won't be back on Granville until September (I think)

And on Granville, they were able to close the street to traffic during the construction. On Broadway, they pretty much have to keep one or two lanes of traffic open during construction for at least the buses and other traffic. This will double or triple the construction time.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by TransitJack

These 120 business owners seem to think that a $2B + spent on a line should service their operations. I think they need to understand that most commuters on Broadway care more about getting from A - B and not leisurely window shopping from the bus/train.

Yup. They say they don't want skytrain as they fear that it will cause massive construction disruption. Of course they are assuming it will be built on Broadway. So they want surface rail instead which they think won't have any disruption.

They also don't want a train underground because they want people too look at their stores while riding the train down Broadway.

Now I'm not sure about everyone else. Personally in all my life of commuting whether I was driving or taking transit. I have never looked at a store and thought, "Hey I should stop in and get some new clothes or I sure do need some new shoes." Every time I've gone to a store on Broadway it is because my sole purpose was to go to that store. So even if I was on a train underground. I'd still be heading for that store. If a store is only surviving financially because people might stop by on while commuting. That store as bigger problems.

[TransitJack]

Originally Posted by cabotp

Yup. They say they don't want skytrain as they fear that it will cause massive construction disruption. Of course they are assuming it will be built on Broadway. So they want surface rail instead which they think won't have any disruption.

They also don't want a train underground because they want people too look at their stores while riding the train down Broadway.

Now I'm not sure about everyone else. Personally in all my life of commuting whether I was driving or taking transit. I have never looked at a store and thought, "Hey I should stop in and get some new clothes or I sure do need some new shoes." Every time I've gone to a store on Broadway it is because my sole purpose was to go to that store. So even if I was on a train underground. I'd still be heading for that store. If a store is only surviving financially because people might stop by on while commuting. That store as bigger problems.

They don't get that underground will be a few years of disruption, or a few months per block at a time... versus disruption for ever if a street option is used.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by TransitJack

These 120 business owners seem to think that a $2B + spent on a line should service their operations. I think they need to understand that most commuters on Broadway care more about getting from A - B and not leisurely window shopping from the bus/train.

Ohhh, great point...I'll add it to the post I'm making.

[mr.x]

Apparently, according to the LRT activists, the St. Clair LRT project in Toronto was merely a road project.