Calgary Public Transit II

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by Radley77

I guess I have always been able to flag down a cab in a couple minutes, but it'd be nice to have a couple designated spots for cabs downtown.

Me too, or I just go to any of the dozens of hotels here. I've never had a problem finding a cab so long as I'm willing to walk a block or three.

Maybe at 2am, but even then there are cabs constantly prowling. For a city of its size Calgary is surprisingly easy to hail a cab - except RIGHT after the bars let out at 2 during Stampede. That can take 2 hours to find a free one.

[Calgarian]

That's really sad news about the little boy, my heart goes out to his family, especially the grandfather. What's nearly as bad is how everyone is going to start blaming Calgary Transit for not making the train safer when it is actually the responsibility of the grandfather.

Do other cities have as many problems with their trains as we seem to here? I know many places in Europ they have trams and street cars that go through big open public plazas and such.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

That's really sad news about the little boy, my heart goes out to his family, especially the grandfather. What's nearly as bad is how everyone is going to start blaming Calgary Transit for not making the train safer when it is actually the responsibility of the grandfather.

Do other cities have as many problems with their trains as we seem to here? I know many places in Europ they have trams and street cars that go through big open public plazas and such.

I think a lot has to do with the design and operation of the vehicles themselves. Low floor trams pose less of a risk of people being crushed beneath the vehicles (although people can still be struck by the vehicle) and they also operate at lower speeds. LRVs like the type Calgary uses are much larger, much faster, are much easier to fall beneath and the potential for serious injury is higher.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

Do other cities have as many problems with their trains as we seem to here? I know many places in Europ they have trams and street cars that go through big open public plazas and such.

A big factor here is that North Americans, especially Canadians, react to any tragedy as if it's 9/11.

People get hit and killed by things all the time all over the world, but it's not necessarily front page news each and every time. Hell, the very fact that it IS front page news here shows just how rare it actually is.

At least this is what I'm told by folks from other countries.

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by freeweed

A big factor here is that North Americans, especially Canadians, react to any tragedy as if it's 9/11.

People get hit and killed by things all the time all over the world, but it's not necessarily front page news each and every time. Hell, the very fact that it IS front page news here shows just how rare it actually is.

At least this is what I'm told by folks from other countries.

sounds like a plausible argument. I think we have the perception that we live in a perfect world and that we should be able to make everything perfectly safe. I think we need to leave some danger in the world to make people realize that everything isn't perfectly safe.

Like Clint Eastwood said in an Interview with Esquire a few years back, "We live in more of a pussy generation now"

"I remember going to a huge waterfall on a glacier in Iceland. People were there on a rock-platform overlook to see it. They had their kids. There was a place that wasn't sealed off, but it had a cable that stopped anybody from going past a certain point. I said to myself, You know, in the States they'd have that hurricane-fenced off, because they're afraid somebody's gonna fall and some lawyer's going to appear. There, the mentality was like it was in America in the old days: If you fall, you're stupid."

"You can't stop everything from happening. But we've gotten to a point where we're certainly trying. If a car doesn't have four hundred air bags in it, then it's no good."

I think he's right.

[freeweed]

I visited the Grand Canyon in winter once, and they get a hell of a lot of snow due to the elevation. The protective railing at that time of year is about 12 inches above the snow, and when you walk up to it on very slippery hard-packed ice and realize there's NOTHING stopping you from going over the edge into one of the deepest canyons in the world... well, you either re-learn caution in a hurry, or you die.

At least *some* things are still nice and dangerous.

[Ferreth]

What's bugging me about this is that no one seems to want to describe exactly what happened to this kid. Being "sucked under the LRT" is too vague. I suspect it's gruesome, but I guess since I'm part of the pussy generation I must be too much of a wimp to hear the truth.

I am *so* going to apply that "pussy generation" label to anyone younger than a baby boomer, even though I fall into that category - it so much better describes anyone born post-boomers.

[rail car designer]

Originally Posted by Ferreth

What's bugging me about this is that no one seems to want to describe exactly what happened to this kid. Being "sucked under the LRT" is too vague. I suspect it's gruesome, but I guess since I'm part of the pussy generation I must be too much of a wimp to hear the truth.

I am *so* going to apply that "pussy generation" label to anyone younger than a baby boomer, even though I fall into that category - it so much better describes anyone born post-boomers.

if the news articles are correct in that he fell between two cars in a consist right before it started moving, you don't want to know what "sucked under" means.

the news articles also seem to make an issue about a 7cm (3 inches give or take) gap between the platform and the vehicle. this gap is pretty much a standard gap between platforms and vehicles, and is designed as such for a variety of reasons, most prominently to prevent collisions between the vehicle and the platform if there are any suspension or wheel wear issues on the vehicle. it is not feasible for anybody to fall between a platform and vehicle at this gap.

what is more concerning to me is why are LRT's not required to have between car barriers like subway and heavy rail cars have? simple chains, nets, or flexible barriers between the two vehicles would stand a very good chance of preventing accidents like this in the future.

[rail car designer]

Originally Posted by Wooster

So this is the first $153 million of the $800 million that is being spent on the additional LRVs, articulated buses and Commuter buses? That leaves a healthy chunk for to try and get the SE LRT going, which the article indicates is in the long term proposal for this money.

Good news. Hopefully they can leverage this funding with the federal government into a 1/3-1/3-1/3 kind of arrangement for SELRT.

on the LRV side, it's supposedly 20 trains and going to be put out for competetive bid.

[Ferreth]

Originally Posted by rail car designer

if the news articles are correct in that he fell between two cars in a consist right before it started moving, you don't want to know what "sucked under" means.

the news articles also seem to make an issue about a 7cm (3 inches give or take) gap between the platform and the vehicle. this gap is pretty much a standard gap between platforms and vehicles, and is designed as such for a variety of reasons, most prominently to prevent collisions between the vehicle and the platform if there are any suspension or wheel wear issues on the vehicle. it is not feasible for anybody to fall between a platform and vehicle at this gap.

what is more concerning to me is why are LRT's not required to have between car barriers like subway and heavy rail cars have? simple chains, nets, or flexible barriers between the two vehicles would stand a very good chance of preventing accidents like this in the future.

Very strange - I only saw the first paragraph of your post until I quoted it in reply- anyone seeing only the first paragraph?
[edit] Now it's all there. I must be 'zmoking the bad shit tonight.

Once I saw the rest of your post, you pretty much covered what I was going to bring up

[sim]

Originally Posted by freeweed

A big factor here is that North Americans, especially Canadians, react to any tragedy as if it's 9/11.

People get hit and killed by things all the time all over the world, but it's not necessarily front page news each and every time. Hell, the very fact that it IS front page news here shows just how rare it actually is.

At least this is what I'm told by folks from other countries.

Agreed. I was in Jakarta and needed to take their elevated commuter train (there was only one line) and I was astonished. Picture 10:00 pm Friday after a Stampede night packed and then double it. Thus, the next logical place to get a ride was on top of the train. So, when in Rome... or Jakarta... The best part was guys were reading the newspaper up there or napping.

[rail car designer]

Originally Posted by Ferreth

Very strange - I only saw the first paragraph of your post until I quoted it in reply- anyone seeing only the first paragraph?
[edit] Now it's all there. I must be 'zmoking the bad shit tonight.

Once I saw the rest of your post, you pretty much covered what I was going to bring up

i added it as an edit.

the LRV industry in NA has very loose standards, they are basically a mix of "dumbed down" FRA requirements and "up-rated" bus requirements. the street car industry is even looser. I'm hoping APTA steps it up and issues a comprehensive set of guidelines that authorities generally adopt.

[srperrycgy]

Editorial from today's Herald:


Every heart in Calgary goes out to the family of the little boy killed Tuesday when he tumbled headlong between a train and the platform at the 3rd Street station.

However, as much as everyone can empathize with the family's overwhelming grief and loss, there is no need to call for safety railings and gates on platforms.

The accident was a terrible tragedy, but it was also a fluke and an extreme rarity. Instead of railings and gates, what is needed is greater vigilance on the part of adults who have small children with them. It takes a moment for a young, energetic child to dart away from the adults accompanying him or her and run into danger anywhere, but at a C-Train station, the potential for tragedy is much higher because of the open platforms. Passengers must stand behind the yellow line -- stepping in front of it puts people at risk of being whacked by the side mirrors of a moving train or at peril of losing their balance and falling onto the tracks -- and they need to hold children's hands at all times on the platform.

Gates and railings are not needed, but taking extra vigilance for the safety of one's children most definitely is.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/Gates+Trains+answer/3194651/story.html

[Distill3d]

Originally Posted by freeweed

A big factor here is that North Americans, especially Canadians, react to any tragedy as if it's 9/11.

People get hit and killed by things all the time all over the world, but it's not necessarily front page news each and every time. Hell, the very fact that it IS front page news here shows just how rare it actually is.

At least this is what I'm told by folks from other countries.

A lot of that probably has to do with the fact that it was a child that was killed. If it had been an adult, it would've been local only and not national news.

Originally Posted by Ferreth

What's bugging me about this is that no one seems to want to describe exactly what happened to this kid. Being "sucked under the LRT" is too vague. I suspect it's gruesome, but I guess since I'm part of the pussy generation I must be too much of a wimp to hear the truth.

I am *so* going to apply that "pussy generation" label to anyone younger than a baby boomer, even though I fall into that category - it so much better describes anyone born post-boomers.

I'm with you there. I'd love to see the pictures lambasted over the front pages of the newspapers running this story. However, out of respect for the family, I'm glad that they aren't. I hope this serves as a lesson to people as well, slow down, enjoy life, don't put yourself in a hurry. There's always going to be another train.

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by srperrycgy

Editorial from today's Herald:


Every heart in Calgary goes out to the family of the little boy killed Tuesday when he tumbled headlong between a train and the platform at the 3rd Street station.

However, as much as everyone can empathize with the family's overwhelming grief and loss, there is no need to call for safety railings and gates on platforms.

The accident was a terrible tragedy, but it was also a fluke and an extreme rarity. Instead of railings and gates, what is needed is greater vigilance on the part of adults who have small children with them. It takes a moment for a young, energetic child to dart away from the adults accompanying him or her and run into danger anywhere, but at a C-Train station, the potential for tragedy is much higher because of the open platforms. Passengers must stand behind the yellow line -- stepping in front of it puts people at risk of being whacked by the side mirrors of a moving train or at peril of losing their balance and falling onto the tracks -- and they need to hold children's hands at all times on the platform.

Gates and railings are not needed, but taking extra vigilance for the safety of one's children most definitely is.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/Gates+Trains+answer/3194651/story.html

Couldn't agree more.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by Distill3d

A lot of that probably has to do with the fact that it was a child that was killed. If it had been an adult, it would've been local only and not national news.

This became national news?!?

Wow. Just wow. We live in a freaking golden age, when one child out of 10 million (or whatever the figure is) dying is national news.

Go back 3 or 4 generations, and virtually every family had a kid or three that died before reaching adulthood. Many countries are still like this today.

I guess I'm just that "glass half full" guy when it comes to things like this.

[Distill3d]

Originally Posted by freeweed

This became national news?!?

Wow. Just wow. We live in a freaking golden age, when one child out of 10 million (or whatever the figure is) dying is national news.

Go back 3 or 4 generations, and virtually every family had a kid or three that died before reaching adulthood. Many countries are still like this today.

I guess I'm just that "glass half full" guy when it comes to things like this.

It even made the front page of www.dailyrotten.com!!

[Radley77]

Perhaps safe boarding procedures for a train should be something that is taught in Kindergarden coupled with an awareness campaign? I guess spending a 100 or so grand would be worth it in my opinion if it had the potential to reduce the risk of a horrible accident like this.

I haven't seen a safety campaign targeted at running on the LRT since I started using the transit... (I could be wrong about this) But I have seen many signs that state things like give up your seat to pregnant women and seniors, move to the centre of the train, how to use the red HELP button, don't hold the doors open or you will make the train late, and don't play your headphones too loud.

To me it seems like there is a gap in providing this information to C-train users regarding how to safely board a train, that running alongside a train is dangerous particularly in wet or icy conditions, and to ensure children and dependents are in close custody while boarding, and maybe even tips on how to safely board with strollers or wheelchairs may be of use. For those, that use the public transit regularly this is of course obvious, and probably taken for granted, but I think there is also the individuals out there that are first time users or tourists and for them, the C-train could be as foreign as a baby trying trying to eat a cake with a fork on it's first birthday (obtuse and the risks aren't known). People learn by watching, for all one knows, he could have seen someone doing the exact same thing (running to catch the train) only moments before and the child and guardian could have thought it was a perfectly acceptable thing to do. Particularly because Calgarians had not heard of an accident like this happening in a long time (low probability, high impact things have a nasty way of getting forgotten about not unlike the Deepwater Horizon disaster). I'm guessing that there are a ton of parents out there that spent that next evening educating their children; what's important is that 5 years later, when this event slips from the collective minds of parents that advisories remain in place.

Overall, I think the C-train is an extremely safe system; but perhaps some of the risks associated with this incident is understated in public advisories.

[outoftheice]

Definately tragic news about the toddler. On a more positive note, it sounds like the political will is starting to grow to push through the first phase of the SE LRT thanks to this new Green TRIP funding announcement....

Funding prompts southeast LRT talks
By MICHAEL PLATT, CALGARY SUN

Last Updated: June 23, 2010 1:10pm

Salvation for Seton? The McKenzie Towne miracle?

How about a Deerfoot Trail with 80,000 fewer cars making the daily drive?

Now that would be divine: If there's ever been an answer to Calgary's commuting prayers, it's a Deerfoot with rush-hour traffic reduced by half.

And suddenly, it's more than just wishful thinking: With the announcement of $800 million in provincial funding for local transit, the once far-off vision of C-Train service to southeast Calgary is now an imminent reality.

Even as crews toil on an LRT line into west Calgary, the southeast line -- once assumed to be decades away from construction -- is being seriously discussed as a go.

Among the movers-and-shakers giving a tentative green light to the southeast LRT is Calgary's mayor, whose legacy is already rooted in roads and new trains.

Mayor Dave Bronconnier, now in his final six months at the helm, says he'll push the current council and the politicians who follow him to start construction on the southeast leg.

"It's $800 million for the region, and it'll be just over $1.1 billion in total spending, whereas the southeast LRT is expected to cost between $1.2 and $1.8 billion," said Bronconnier.

"Could this mean starting the Southeast LRT? Well, I sure hope so.

"My advice to this and the future city council is the southeast LRT makes a whole lot of sense."

It's especially logical when the money to build a big chunk of that train is suddenly available, through the province's $2-billion GreenTRIP fund.

That cash, which requires cities and towns to contribute a matching third, was first announced two years ago, but the handout was put on hold as the recession gripped Alberta.

On Tuesday, the lock was finally removed from the GreenTRIP coffer, and the long-promised money doled out: The share for Calgary and district is $800,000,000.

Questions about what projects the cash might be spent on were also cleared up -- Alberta Transportation spokeswoman Tammy Forbes says a C-Train extension definitely qualifies as an environmental improvement.

"LRT projects are certainly eligible," said Forbes.

GreenTRIP is part of the province's greenhouse gas strategy, aimed at reducing the number of commuter cars on Alberta's roads, via public transit.

Edmonton is also in line for $800 million in funding, while $400 million will be split between the province's remaining municipalities.

Calgary can certainly use the money. Despite a decade of spending on interchanges, LRT and the entirely new west leg of the C-Train, there's still a long list of projects awaiting funding.

While Bronconnier favours the southeast LRT, he says there are actually two C-Train projects vying for cash.

The other is the downtown core, which is slated for underground tracks, and stations stretching to Eau Claire.

Until downtown's train system is finished, a southeast LRT line would terminate at 10 Ave. and Olympic Way -- but Bronconnier said a short walk to the downtown train is a small price to pay.

"It would mean walking a couple of blocks to the downtown station, until we have more money," he said.

The southeast leg will ultimately stretch to communities like Seton and the new south hospital, along 15 km of track.

The train will pass through Quarry Park and Douglasdale on its way south, with major stations at Ramsay/Inglewood, Crossroads, Ogden, Douglasdale, McKenzie Towne, Auburn Bay, South Hospital and Seton.

If the current mayor believes it's now time for the southeast LRT, one alderman running to replace him has been trying to convince council to fund the leg for years.

Ald. Ric McIver said the province's $800 million will buy convenience and a less frustrating commute for one of Calgary's fastest growing quadrants.

"It's well established that the next major project is the southeast LRT -- this money is enough to at least build the first half of that leg," said McIver, an aldermen for the area.
[email protected]

Link to story: http://www.calgarysun.com/news/columnists/michael_platt/2010/06/23/14487201.html

[mersar]

Well thats an interesting way of phasing it that I don't think anyone has suggested before, stopping it at 10th ave and Olympic Way would be an interesting approach for sure. I'd think we might be better off going one station further west, even if its underground but realistically any station under 10th ave wouldn't be too much harder as it could be cut and cover, and won't need the boring thats going to be required to make it into the CBD going below Gulf Canada Square.