Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by lezard

I've been trying to find a breakdown of the 100'000 daily trips quoted by Translink by trip length or number of stops and mybe trip purpose.

I'm not sure the short trips are that much of a minority. I remember coming across an estimate of the UBC ridership, and if I recall correctly, it was some 40% of the corridor ridership. Add the other long distance commuters and their might still be a sizable portion of short trippers.

I can't agree with satishreddy concerning the point where Streetcar makes sense. Street level streetcar is warranted along any corridor where the ridership reaches the maximum capacity of the existing rubber based transit mode.

I think you might be surprised by how many people use the east west corridor for their daily needs. Anyone living with a few blocks of Broadway might find the B.Line rather handy to reach the shopping district between Cambie and Main, More so now where major London Drugs, Canadian Tire, Home Depot and others are setting up in the corridor.

Even if 40% is correct, adding commuters heading to the Central Broadway BD, would easily be another 30% of current commuters, making it a clear majority. Going from Commercial to VGH might not seem that long a commute, but it is when you include how far they've come before Commercial (like Coquitlam or Surrey). There is also a huge potential to attract more riders to transit if the Broadway CBD is well served by rapid transit. Even a large number of even shorter trips inside the corridor would still originate/terminate outside the corridor.

I really don't see that many people that live on Broadway coming a long way East to the Cambie area. There is a London Drugs already on West Broadway for Kits Residents, as well as multiple grocery stores, and even a Future Shop. And even trips to the Cambie shopping area would be considered excursions, not routine trips to/from work that Skytrain would target.

I think it's pretty clear that most trips on the Broadway corridor are regional based trips. People entering or leaving the corridor. People in Kits who complain about Skytrain bringing too many people through their neighborhood have no conception about what it's like for other people to get to the city. They are only basing their reaction on the fact that their lives are good the way they are, it's easy to get downtown and UBC isn't that far away. Many have zero empathy for other people in the region. What will Skytrain do for the average Kits resident? Nothing. If they go to UBC it might marginally lower their travel time (being that they are already fairly close), and it doesn't help them get downtown that much, so of course they are going to be against it. So I would argue they aren't even stakeholders in the situation really, as improvements on the Broadway corridor aren't for them, but for residents of the rest of Metro Vancouver.

[lezard]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

Even if 40% is correct, adding commuters heading to the Central Broadway BD, would easily be another 30% of current commuters, making it a clear majority. Going from Commercial to VGH might not seem that long a commute, but it is when you include how far they've come before Commercial (like Coquitlam or Surrey). There is also a huge potential to attract more riders to transit if the Broadway CBD is well served by rapid transit. Even a large number of even shorter trips inside the corridor would still originate/terminate outside the corridor.

I really don't see that many people that live on Broadway coming a long way East to the Cambie area. There is a London Drugs already on West Broadway for Kits Residents, as well as multiple grocery stores, and even a Future Shop. And even trips to the Cambie shopping area would be considered excursions, not routine trips to/from work that Skytrain would target.

I think it's pretty clear that most trips on the Broadway corridor are regional based trips. People entering or leaving the corridor. People in Kits who complain about Skytrain bringing too many people through their neighborhood have no conception about what it's like for other people to get to the city. They are only basing their reaction on the fact that their lives are good the way they are, it's easy to get downtown and UBC isn't that far away. Many have zero empathy for other people in the region. What will Skytrain do for the average Kits resident? Nothing. If they go to UBC it might marginally lower their travel time (being that they are already fairly close), and it doesn't help them get downtown that much, so of course they are going to be against it. So I would argue they aren't even stakeholders in the situation really, as improvements on the Broadway corridor aren't for them, but for residents of the rest of Metro Vancouver.

Well, without any firm numbers it isn't at all clear as you say and all of this is just speculation.

Improvements on the broadway corridor do not just benefit the rest of Vancouver, even using the highly speculative 30% of trips on the corridor as being short trips within the corridor then we are still talking about a third of the users. 30'000 daily users is not a group you can just discount like that.

That's the kind of attitude that can sink Skytrain to UBC, by not taking seriously all the stakeholders involved. The taxpayers of every part of this Province are stakeholders, it's their tax dollars too that will fund the line.

[punface]

The Globe & Mail has an article that is relevant to the Broadway debate: "In Vancouver, beware of cars; in Toronto, watch for streetcar tracks"

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/nati...tch-for-streetcar-tracks/article1587335/

It's about a study that found streetcar tracks and streetcars are the number one source of cyclist injury in Toronto. The comments are fairly interesting too.

I post this a bit reluctantly because I like streetcars, just not for Broadway.

[jsbertram]

At one of the UBC line meetings last month, someone was actually wanting to add bike lanes to Broadway.

Sidewalks, parking lanes, bike lanes, traffic lanes, turning lanes, streetcar lanes. Someone pointed out to her that 'there was only so much width to Broadway unless you want to start knocking down buildings' like Baron Haussmann and Napoléon III did to Paris in the mid-1800s (being emperor does have its advantages).

It was also pointed out to her that most people would rather bike on the parallel 8th Ave or 10th Ave roads away from the Broadway traffic.

[racc]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

At one of the UBC line meetings last month, someone was actually wanting to add bike lanes to Broadway.

Sidewalks, parking lanes, bike lanes, traffic lanes, turning lanes, streetcar lanes. Someone pointed out to her that 'there was only so much width to Broadway unless you want to start knocking down buildings' like Baron Haussmann and Napoléon III did to Paris in the mid-1800s (being emperor does have its advantages).

It was also pointed out to her that most people would rather bike on the parallel 8th Ave or 10th Ave roads away from the Broadway traffic.

8th and 10th are popular bicycle routes but so is Broadway due to shops and other popular destinations. There are a lot of cyclists using Broadway, both on the road and the sidewalks. People cycling on sidewalks is a good indication of demand for separated bike lanes. As the number of people who cycle increase, so will the number of people wanting to cycle on Broadway. Already in many of the neighbourhoods around Broadway, between 5% and 10% of people cycle to work. Not bad for North America.

Back in the 70's, Copenhagen tried to get all the cyclists off main streets by upgrading routes on side streets. This did not work as these routes did not take cyclists where they wanted to go so they put in separated bike lanes on arterial streets and now they have 40% of trips by bicycle. Hard to argue with success.

Anyway, this is just another reason to have rapid transit underground.

[deasine]

I would like to see bike lanes on Broadway as well, something that will definitely be impossible with LRT.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by racc

8th and 10th are popular bicycle routes but so is Broadway due to shops and other popular destinations.

Speaking as someone who cycles to destinations of Broadway from time to time, 10th works perfectly well. You really only need to use Broadway for the "last block" to your destination, and for that last block I usually walk my bike on the sidewalk rather than be squeezed between heavy traffic and parked cars that can open their doors at any second.

I do ride my bike on the sidewalk from time to time where I think it's better on the balance to risk a ticket than my life, but I find that Broadway is generally too crowded to do it safely.

[wrenegade]

Originally Posted by deasine

I would like to see bike lanes on Broadway as well, something that will definitely be impossible with LRT.

Isn't West 8th supposed to be the designated bike route?

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by deasine

I would like to see bike lanes on Broadway as well, something that will definitely be impossible with LRT.

Can't they just ride on the rails and listen for the polite "ding, ding"?

[city-dweller]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Can't they just ride on the rails and listen for the polite "ding, ding"?

Followed by the loud crash as a car is trying to turn right before the train blocks it.

[punface]

A reminder if anyone is interested in going and taking notes - BARSTA's meeting regarding Broadway is tomorrow.

This is according to a post last month from our friends at railforthevalley ... I haven't seen anything mentioned since then, so maybe it has been cancelled?

Business and Residents Association for Sustainable Alternative Transport re:

Broadway and w 10th proposed Translink
Community meeting on June 22nd 7.30 P.M.

St. James Community Centre, West 10th Ave and Trutch.

Speakers include Patrick Condon of UBC
Mel Lehan, local NDP candidate and comm. organizer.

All welcome

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by racc

8th and 10th are popular bicycle routes but so is Broadway due to shops and other popular destinations. There are a lot of cyclists using Broadway, both on the road and the sidewalks. People cycling on sidewalks is a good indication of demand for separated bike lanes. As the number of people who cycle increase, so will the number of people wanting to cycle on Broadway. Already in many of the neighbourhoods around Broadway, between 5% and 10% of people cycle to work. Not bad for North America.

Back in the 70's, Copenhagen tried to get all the cyclists off main streets by upgrading routes on side streets. This did not work as these routes did not take cyclists where they wanted to go so they put in separated bike lanes on arterial streets and now they have 40% of trips by bicycle. Hard to argue with success.

Anyway, this is just another reason to have rapid transit underground.

I have to say I like riding on 8th and 10th a lot more than on Broadway. The only big advantage to people using Broadway for bike trips (other than last block destinations) at night is the better lighting. 8th and 10th don't have nearly as much noise, traffic, pollution or on hot sunny days, exposed sun. It's a lot nicer environment to ride on.

During the day 8th or 10th is much faster because you don't have to wait for the pedestrian lights. The only downside to 8th and 10th is that the right of way hasn't been finished. There's still a number of intersections that would work much better as traffic circles (8th and Collingwood for example). Additionally it would work a lot better if the curb was brought out near the intersections along 8th or 10th to make sure that parked cars don't obscure the sight lines of the intersection. This is especially a problem between Alma and McDonald.

[big T]

I think both are needed. Biking on the 10th bikeways will always be nicer if you're just passing through the area, e.g. on your way to Spanish banks from the east side. But if you're actually patronizing the retail on broadway itself then you need a bike lane there. Going for the last block only works only if you already know where you're going. I don't think it's very conducive to the kind of traffic that makes a retail area a really healthy shopping destination.

What I'd love to see would be for a street corner to have a substantial amount of space set out for a large bike rack, a la Granville island, somewhere near the heart of he broadway commercial stretch. That way people could bike all the way there using the 10th avenue bikeway, then make a turn (ideally following clear signage) to reach the bike parkade. Cyclists get reasonable assurance they will find a spot to secure their bike and then get converted into foot traffic right in the heart of the commercial stretch -- everybody wins.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by awvan

Isn't West 8th supposed to be the designated bike route?

It is west of Yew. At Trafalgar the 10th Ave Bike route ends and you switch over to 8th.

East of Yew instead of 8th. The bike route jogs between 7th, 5th and 6th Ave.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

I have to say I like riding on 8th and 10th a lot more than on Broadway. The only big advantage to people using Broadway for bike trips (other than last block destinations) at night is the better lighting. 8th and 10th don't have nearly as much noise, traffic, pollution or on hot sunny days, exposed sun. It's a lot nicer environment to ride on.

During the day 8th or 10th is much faster because you don't have to wait for the pedestrian lights. The only downside to 8th and 10th is that the right of way hasn't been finished. There's still a number of intersections that would work much better as traffic circles (8th and Collingwood for example). Additionally it would work a lot better if the curb was brought out near the intersections along 8th or 10th to make sure that parked cars don't obscure the sight lines of the intersection. This is especially a problem between Alma and McDonald.

I love the traffic circles. I cycle Windsor from 37th to 10th every day. Other than 1 stop sign where it jogs over around 14th Ave. I don't have to stop or slow down that much at any of the other side streets.

I think I read somewhere that at Inverness and 45th. They are going to be putting in a circle.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by cabotp

I think I read somewhere that at Inverness and 45th. They are going to be putting in a circle.

They're doing a lot of traffic calming on the easternmost section of 45th. It's been pretty busy for a bike route, so they've lowered the speed limit to 30km/h and they're installing diverters at Rupert and Clarendon/Elliot to prevent motorists from traveling straight through.

I have mixed feelings about it because when I'm driving the diverters prevent me from making a convenient left turn to get to my house, but I do use the street as a bike route and it has made it a lot quieter.

[deasine]

The problem with the diverts now is that there isn't a stop sign at Elliott, meaning thru traffic on Elliott just passes straight through. This means cyclists will have to stop and wait for the traffic to clear before going through, and there are quite a few cars on Elliott during the rush hour.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

They're doing a lot of traffic calming on the easternmost section of 45th. It's been pretty busy for a bike route, so they've lowered the speed limit to 30km/h and they're installing diverters at Rupert and Clarendon/Elliot to prevent motorists from traveling straight through.

I have mixed feelings about it because when I'm driving the diverters prevent me from making a convenient left turn to get to my house, but I do use the street as a bike route and it has made it a lot quieter.

Do you have a picture of what these diverters look like.

Last time I went along 45th Ave. Which was about 2 weeks ago on my bike. Rupert/Kerr at 45th was still a traffic light as it has always been. And Elliot/Claredon at 45th was a 4 way stop as it as always been. Nothing looked different than when I've driven through countless times before.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by cabotp

Do you have a picture of what these diverters look like.

We're getting a little off topic for this thread, so I've posted a shot in the Bike/Pedestrian thread.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

We're getting a little off topic for this thread, so I've posted a shot in the Bike/Pedestrian thread.

Thanks I saw the picture. I realized we were getting off topic.