Third Harbour Crossing

[fenwick16]

I think that something needs to be done in the South End, if Halifax is to grow in the future. This might require an HRM wide plebiscite (that is - any North West Arm bridge will require an HRM wide plebicite to move forward). I would like to see the South End opened up with wide boulevards (not highways which cut cities into sections). This would necessitate using some parkland (since expropriating and buying private residences would cost a fortune). I think this could likely be done for a couple hundred million dollars and would eliminate the need for a southern harbour crossing and would get trucks off the downtown peninsula.

Although there would be an outcry against using part of Point Pleasant Park for roadways, I think it would result in Point Pleasant Park being more widely used. I lived in Halifax for years and only went to Point Pleasant Park once. It is mainly used by people who live within a few blocks of Point Pleasant Park because it is cut off from the city by the rail cut and Halterm. Having a Boulevard passing along the northern fringe of Point Pleasant Park would open it up and it could become another widely used park like the Public Gardens.

This would have to be done before the roadway route becomes built up with homes. This would add 10 more lanes unto the peninsula with neither a twin MacKay or southern bridge. This would open the southern Halifax mainland for development just like the MacDonald and MacKay bridges did in Dartmouth. PS: Since the HRM decided to construct a wastewater treatment facility in Herring Cove (one of three built for Harbour Solutions) it seems as though the southern Halifax mainland might be the focus of future growth - hopefully it will be quite densely populated (30 - 40 foot wide lot singles, rowhouses, and lowrise/midrise residential).

For comparison, look at the map of Quebec City - http://www.mapquest.com/maps?city=Quebec....81274&longitude=-71.219353&geocode=CITY . There are not several crossings over the Saint Lawrence River in order to build up the area around Levis.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

There are not several crossings over the Saint Lawrence River in order to build up the area around Levis.

Well, look at how small Lévis is. Also note how sprawly Quebec City is - it's lower density than Halifax.

There is a large subdivision planned for the area between Williams and Colpitt Lake. Not sure if it's approved. People made a big fuss over it, but it would make sense as an area to develop if the transportation issues were fixed, which could easily be done with bridges.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by someone123

Well, look at how small Lévis is. Also note how sprawly Quebec City is - it's lower density than Halifax.

Levis, QC at 130,000 people actually has more people than Dartmouth ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A9vis,_Quebec ). However, my point is that HRM should be spending its money and Nova Scotia's money efficiently by concentrating growth in areas that are the least expensive to service. The southern mainland of Halifax would be the least expensive to connect to the Halifax peninsula. It also has a new wastewater treatment plant in Herring Cove. There should be at least one North West Arm bridge. If it is a choice between a $100 million North West Arm bridge and a $1 billion southern harbour bridge then it seems like it should be a fairly easy decision.

HRM could probably put another 100,000 people on the peninsula and 1,000,000 (one million) to the west of the peninsula (no exaggeration here - it is just a question of how far the city should extend to the west, it could go all the way to St Margaret's Bay). HRM has lots of room to grow - it looks like there is enough room to grow for the next couple hundred years (by that time Halifax might be the size that Vancouver is today). Actually at the present growth rate 1.3% annually it would be 1.5 million people in just one hundred years. If the growth rate becomes similar to Toronto or Vancouver (but less than Calgary) then at 2% annual growth it would be over 1,000,000 in just 50 years.

PS: With a North West Arm bridge there would also be lots of room for a municipal stadium close to Dalhousie University and St Mary's University (on the mainland south).

[fenwick16]

Here's an interesting map of the harbour depth. I didn't realize that the water around NcNabs Island is significantly shallower than the rest of the harbour.

One question that I have - what would be the tallest ships using the North West Arm if a bridge is ever build, how much clearance would it require?

(source: http://www.nrcan.gc.ca/halifax/DVD/fig1-eng.php )

[worldlyhaligonian]

I don't think the Williams Lake / Colpitt area is a good idea for anything dense... and arm crossing doesn't make that much sense for many reasons. Also, this bridge would have to be rediculously tall to allow for sailboats to pass beneath it.

I think that west end entry/exit should be prioritized and I just don't see an arm bridge being effective as the majority of people live on towards clayton park.

The Bayers Rd widening will definitely help ease traffic.

[fenwick16]

What are the tallest sailboats that sail into the North West Arm? For example the Bluenose mast is 125 feet (source - http://museum.gov.ns.ca/mma/atoz/talltop.html )?

[Dmajackson]

If there is ever need for an Arm Bridge I would say Coburg Road-Melville Ave would work the best expecially if you want to include a transit corridor and a short span is deisred (~700-800m).

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Here's an interesting map of the harbour depth. I didn't realize that the water around NcNabs Island is significantly shallower than the rest of the harbour.

One question that I have - what would be the tallest ships using the North West Arm if a bridge is ever build, how much clearance would it require?

As someone who was a passenger on a sailboat that ran aground well offshore of McNab's many years ago, I can attest that it is indeed very shallow there. Hence the issues around moving the container piers to the Shearwater side.

As for the NW arm, it is almost all recreational sailing. Bridge height clearance would not be an issue with any sort of reasonable design.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Dmajackson

If there is ever need for an Arm Bridge I would say Coburg Road-Melville Ave would work the best expecially if you want to include a transit corridor and a short span is deisred (~700-800m).

This would be a good start, except the total bridge length might be 700m - 800m but it looks like a span of about 300m - 350m would span that distance. This would tie in well with Dalhousie U. and Spring Garden Road. They could probably put about 4 - 6 lanes on such a bridge and also have connections to Cannaught Ave. - except there is a huge residence at that location (I am not sure who owns it)?

A tunnel could go under the North West Arm south of Chain Rock Drive through Point Pleasant Park so that it would hardly be noticed. It could connect to Young Avenue, Tower Road and Marginal Road (for truck traffic). Then on the west side of the North West Arm it could connect to Purcells Cove Road near Melvin Road (South of the Royal NS Yacht Club). I am thinking in terms of facilitating long term growth (so the HRM can get to 600,000 plus people) - it could also connect to the North West Arm Drive for easy connection to the 102.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

As someone who was a passenger on a sailboat that ran aground well offshore of McNab's many years ago, I can attest that it is indeed very shallow there. Hence the issues around moving the container piers to the Shearwater side.

As for the NW arm, it is almost all recreational sailing. Bridge height clearance would not be an issue with any sort of reasonable design.

I guess dredging is out of the question around McNabs Island to create more port land? It is probably bedrock.

[halifaxboyns]

I agree with Keith P - height of a bridge issue for the arm isn't a factor. When I was doing my urban planning course at St. Mary's - I was the transportation planner for the regional planning workstudy we did. I had proposed the Robie Street bridge across the arm and was challenged big time on it by the two RM councillors that attended our mock council session.

What seemed to stick was the fact that I said that all residents need to shoulder the price of growth and the 'upper crust' should be no exception. That being said, the idea of a road through Point Plesant Park would probably never fly - lets be realistic here. This may be an example of where expropriating property to do a bridge across the arm would be preferable to going through the park. However, I agree with the principle of a central connection road - I think the Robie location would be better setup to deal with it.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

I agree with Keith P - height of a bridge issue for the arm isn't a factor. When I was doing my urban planning course at St. Mary's - I was the transportation planner for the regional planning workstudy we did. I had proposed the Robie Street bridge across the arm and was challenged big time on it by the two RM councillors that attended our mock council session.

What seemed to stick was the fact that I said that all residents need to shoulder the price of growth and the 'upper crust' should be no exception. That being said, the idea of a road through Point Plesant Park would probably never fly - lets be realistic here. This may be an example of where expropriating property to do a bridge across the arm would be preferable to going through the park. However, I agree with the principle of a central connection road - I think the Robie location would be better setup to deal with it.

I did a quick sketch without too much thought. It would certainly give people working in the South End another option of getting out of the city. Especially with a connection to the North West Arm Drive which connects to the 102. If you look at a map it certainly looks like this was the plan at one time.

I think that there would have to be a couple more through connections in the South End. It would certainly open up land for expansion by Dalhousie U. and SMU.

[hfxtradesman]

Too many rich people in that area, we will never see this.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by hfxtradesman

Too many rich people in that area, we will never see this.

That is why I think something on the northern fringe of Point Pleasant Park would have more chance of proceeding. It would be far less intrusive than the Lion's Gate Bridge through Stanley Park in Vancouver - http://www.mapquest.com/maps?city=Vancou...29907&longitude=-123.14039&geocode=BLOCK

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

That is why I think something on the northern fringe of Point Pleasant Park would have more chance of proceeding. It would be far less intrusive than the Lion's Gate Bridge through Stanley Park in Vancouver

Now's the time to build it...........before all the trees in the park grow back!!

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Now's the time to build it...........before all the trees in the park grow back!!

Point Pleasant Park provided an excellent wind break for Halifax. Just imagine how much more damage there would have been to the city without it.

[Dmajackson]

I think if any bridge is to ever be built across the arm it should be in the Coburg corridor. It would provide an alternative to Armdale and it could easily be integrated into the SGR transit corridor. Coburg would have its outer lanes converted into rush-hour bus lanes (parking lanes off-peak). Due to the number of routes and high ridership counts Spring Garden would have full-time bus lanes (allow loading from 12am-6am). If clearance is not an issue a lower deck could be added in the future for a east-west subway system stretching from South Centre Mall to the new Central Library.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Dmajackson

I think if any bridge is to ever be built across the arm it should be in the Coburg corridor. It would provide an alternative to Armdale and it could easily be integrated into the SGR transit corridor. Coburg would have its outer lanes converted into rush-hour bus lanes (parking lanes off-peak). Due to the number of routes and high ridership counts Spring Garden would have full-time bus lanes (allow loading from 12am-6am). If clearance is not an issue a lower deck could be added in the future for a east-west subway system stretching from South Centre Mall to the new Central Library.

Although I agree with you, what route would you take? Having 2 or 3 bridges (or tunnels) across the North West Arm would really open up that part of Halifax and relieve traffic on places like the Armdale Rotary. Could you do a sketch of the route that you would choose?

I am not sure what this is - is it a private residence or a public pool? Although I am very pro-development how can it be done without ruining this part of the city?

[something_witty]

For a NWA bridge, I would agree that it would have to be around Coburg or Robie Street areas. Directing all that traffic down Tower Road to PPP and across the Arm at that area would not be very advantageous.
Tower Road would have to be expanded into a major traffic corridor, and it's really just slightly busier than a side street now.

[something_witty]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Although I agree with you, what route would you take? Having 2 or 3 bridges (or tunnels) across the North West Arm would really open up that part of Halifax and relieve traffic on places like the Armdale Rotary. Could you do a sketch of the route that you would choose?

I am not sure what this is - is it a private residence or a public pool? Although I am very pro-development how can it be done without ruining this part of the city?

Oh, this is the Waegwoltic Club
http://www.waegwoltic.ca/