Ottawa Rapid Transit Network developments

[Kitchissippi]

There's quite a few projects that have come on or under budget. It's just that only the ones that go over budget make the news.

There are going to be a lot of companies looking for work as the bulk of the stimulus spending in Canada and the US ends this year.

[Richard Eade]

Does anyone else have to laugh that the Conservative Federal Government is taking its lead from the Liberal Provincial Government? The Feds could have ponied up the asked for $700M and made the Province look bad, but instead, they chose to follow.

It will be interesting to see how the costs will be trimmed. Perhaps the City will chose to not declare the large contingencies, which would look as if the project is less expensive. Or, they can give a big 'Raspberry' to the Feds and cut the link from Bayview to Tunney's Pasture since it was the Feds who didn't give the City the needed $100M to complete that segment.

[lrt's friend]

I am waiting for the hidden 'Ottawa' surcharge from the bidders. The extra charge because Ottawa is considered a high risk.

[Richard Eade]

What ever happened to the $200M that was 'in the account waiting for Ottawa to use it for LRT' from the Province? Has the Province simply added $400M and re-announced the other $200M?

Also, the Fed's $200M (minus the $35M taken from it for the Strandherd-Armstrong Bridge) should still be available since the 'new' money is coming from the new Stimulus Fund; isn't it?

[Richard Eade]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I am waiting for the hidden 'Ottawa' surcharge from the bidders. The extra charge because Ottawa is considered a high risk.

I don't expect a price premium for that, but just be a HUGE penalty clause for cancellation.

[Kitchissippi]

High risk is when you can't pay your bills and default on payment. We paid the settlement, so where's the risk? If anything, Siemens made its money on that fiasco and should give us a good deal if it decides to bid.

[blackjagger]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

Scenarios:

Contractor: “How much do you have to spend on this?”
Customer 1: “About $1B.”
Contractor: “Sorry, it will be more than that. It will take about $1.5B to do the job.”

Contractor: “How much do you have to spend on this?”
Customer 2: “About $1.8B.”
Contractor: “Oh, it will cost about $2B to complete the job, but that is such a small increase, it is within your budget.”

Contractor: “How much do you have to spend on this?”
Customer 3: “About $2.2B.”
Contractor: “Oh, it will cost about $2.5B to complete the job, but that is such a small increase, it is within your budget.”


I imagine that very few contractors who know that you are willing to spend more money than it will take to complete a job would actually only ask for the cost of the job. In the above, we learn in the first scenario that the contractor would like to charge $1.5B for the job. This would include a ‘normal’ profit. In the other two scenarios, the contractor simply pads the available money by 10%-15% and takes the bigger profit.

If you were going to cut the neighbour’s lawn for him and he offered $20, would you tell him that you only wanted $10 to cover your $5 in gas + $5 in profit?

I think d_jeffrey is correct. The City didn’t do anything to save money when it announced what it expected to pay, including 50% contingencies on the tunnel components and an added $100M in Director’s Contingency.

Come on were talking about a competitive tender process here not Joe the Plumber getting individual prices from some yocals. All major projects come with estimates, it’s how the entity that is offering the project can try and budget for the work. Whether it’s DCC, the school boards, the city of Ottawa or a private company you have to provide an idea of what that work will cost for both your budgetary reasons and so the bidder can decided if the job is worth bidding.
If the city can lower the risk in the project they we will get lower prices or if they want to carry the risk as a contingency we will get the same price with the addition of the allowance. If the work can be done for less than the budget someone will want the work and will bid it as such.

cheers,
Josh

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

What ever happened to the $200M that was 'in the account waiting for Ottawa to use it for LRT' from the Province? Has the Province simply added $400M and re-announced the other $200M?

Also, the Fed's $200M (minus the $35M taken from it for the Strandherd-Armstrong Bridge) should still be available since the 'new' money is coming from the new Stimulus Fund; isn't it?

The new money will not be from the stimulus fund. All stimulus projects must be completed by the spring of next year.

[Richard Eade]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

Government of Canada Invests in Ottawa Public Transit

...
BACKGROUNDER
...
The source of funds for up to $400 million of the federal investment being announced today is the Major Infrastructure Component of the Building Canada Fund. The source of funds for the remaining $200 million will be the Canada Strategic Infrastructure Fund

OK, so only $400M is from the new(?) Building Canada Fund (BCF), and the other $200M is from the Strategic Infrastructure Fund (SIF). Of course there is no money from the Stimulus Fund since the project would have needed to be completed by spring 2011. The SIF apears to also be a new fund. So what happened to the original $200M (-$35M for the S-A Bridge)?

[waterloowarrior]

Richard - the Strategic Infrastructure Fund dates back from the Chretien days. The $200 million for the NS LRT came from this fund, so I assume that the $200 million for the new plan is the same money that was previously committed.

The Building Canada fund was started by the Conservatives a couple of years ago and is used for many jointly (province/feds) funded infrastructure projects such as the Spadina Subway extension and Sheppard East LRT.

edit: Also, the Strandherd bridge is now coming from the Building Canada fund, not NS LRT money http://www.emcottawasouth.ca/20100205/news/Meeting+shows+bridge,+road+repairs+on+track

[McC]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

OK, so only $400M is from the new(?) Building Canada Fund (BCF), and the other $200M is from the Strategic Infrastructure Fund (SIF). Of course there is no money from the Stimulus Fund since the project would have needed to be completed by spring 2011. The SIF apears to also be a new fund. So what happened to the original $200M (-$35M for the S-A Bridge)?

The Canada Strategic Infrastructure Fund is "old" (like 2003), and that's where the original federal funding earmarked for NS-LRT was sourced from. That money's been sitting in the bank, along with an amount earmarked for Ottawa based on its population under the Building Canada Fund (which is "new" from 2007). YOu can learn all about these different programs here: http://www.infc.gc.ca/

So the Federal funding announcement comprises the approx $200M previously committed plus approx $400 in newly-committed funding. As I understand it, Province did something similar.

[Richard Eade]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

Richard - the Strategic Infrastructure Fund dates back from the Chretien days. The $200 million for the NS LRT came from this fund, so I assume that the $200 million for the new plan is the same money that was previously committed.

The Building Canada fund was started by the Conservatives a couple of years ago and is used for many jointly (province/feds) funded infrastructure projects such as the Spadina Subway extension and Sheppard East LRT.

edit: Also, the Stranherd money came from the Building Canada fund, not NS LRT money

According to this news article, the S-A Bridge funding came from the $200M.

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/city/story.html?id=4fbeedc6-5a87-4f21-b3aa-3b52fa9c5374

...City council had lobbied hard for the money to come from outside the $200 million set aside for the failed north-south rail project. When news of the funding first broke this past weekend, several councillors, including the two area representatives, Steve Desroches and Jan Harder, praised Mr. Poilievre for pulling off a great coup for the city. But when they learned the money will actually come from the $200-million transit fund, some of the councillors accused the Tory MP of misleading them....

[waterloowarrior]

The $105 million bridge has been split into three projects. In June 2009 the province and feds agreed to fund the bridge under the Building Canada fund... 1/3rd (16 million) each. The funding for the Earl Armstrong widening and bridge approach road came from the Infrastructure Stimulus fund, I think the Strandherd extension/PoW improvement money also came from that fund.

[Richard Eade]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

The $105 million bridge has been split into three projects. In June 2009 the province and feds agreed to fund the bridge under the Building Canada fund... 1/3rd (16 million) each. The funding for the Earl Armstrong widening and bridge approach road came from the Infrastructure Stimulus fund, I think the Strandherd extension/PoW improvement money also came from that fund.

Ah, so things have changed. Thank-you for this information.

It is very confusing when the current Infrastructure Canada Web page tells a different story:

http://www.infc.gc.ca/media/news-nouvelles/csif-fcis/2007/20071126ottawa-eng.html

...The Government of Canada will consider funding up to one-third of total eligible costs to a maximum federal contribution of $35 million toward the proposal. The total estimated cost of the Strandherd Bridge initiative is $105 million. Funding for the project will come from the $200 million reserved under the Canada Strategic Infrastructure Fund for transit projects in the City of Ottawa....

[waterloowarrior]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

Ah, so things have changed. Thank-you for this information.

It is very confusing when the current Infrastructure Canada Web page tells a different story:

http://www.infc.gc.ca/media/news-nouvelles/csif-fcis/2007/20071126ottawa-eng.html

My guess is that the negative response from Council and the province to the federal proposal (in 2007) to use that transit money for roads led to the changes in how it was being funded...

Back to the current project: Councillor Chiarelli has said that the LRT money is "flexible" http://communities.canada.com/ottawaciti...8/federal-light-rail-money-flexible.aspx

According to Chiarelli, Froggatt told him it can be used for downtown permanent transit infrastructure. Chiarelli says that means the city could spend it on a tunnel or surface rail, depending on affordability.

It allows the city to alter the route if it becomes necessary or amend the plan if there are cost overruns, Chiarelli says.

edit: or not http://communities.canada.com/ottawaciti...ullen-speaks-on-light-rail.aspx#comments


Councillors and media are getting a briefing on announcement and impact on the project this afternoon
http://ottawa.ca/cgi-bin/pressco.pl?&Elist=16121&lang=en

[Richard Eade]

OK, I think I'm starting to unravel some of this: It appears that the money (and projects previously announced) under the Strategic Infrastructure Fund (SIF) were rolled under the Building Canada Fund (BCF) umberella.

http://www.buildingcanada-chantierscanada.gc.ca/plandocs/index-eng.html

...The total infrastructure funding over the seven year period is $37B, including $4B of sunsetting expenditures from the Canada Strategic Infrastructure Fund, Border Infrastructure Fund, Municipal Rural Infrastructure Fund, and the Public Transit Capital Trust. The Building Canada plan incorporates funding announced in Budget 2006....

I see no additional money being earmarked for the S-A Bridge. There is only the original $200M moved from the "sunsetting" SIF to the BCF. This is why the S-A Bridge funding is now listed as coming from the BCF. I see nothing that tells me that the $35M for the S-A Bridge is not coming out of that $200M. Does anyone have any definite information that they can point me to?

[Richard Eade]

From the address from the Honourable Lawrence Cannon, June 13, 2008:

http://www.buildingcanada-chantierscanad...es-discours/2008/20080613ottawa-eng.html

...The Government of Canada has already reserved $200 million for transit projects in Ottawa.

Last fall, we announced that the construction of the Strandherd Bridge and upgrades to the roads leading up the bridge would be a priority for up to $35 million of those funds.

Building Canada will provide more funding for transit than ever before.
...

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Franky

I've never seen an infrastructure project in Ottawa come in under budget. Usually, it's WAY over. If they claim it will be less, expect to shell out more tax money.

Too bad innovative solutions aren't even considered. We could have a full-blown, automated system in place with money left over to build a nice stadium (on a rapid transit line) and still have money left over for other projects.

The presented project IS automated. All the numbers show that the core line will need to be fully automated LRT to actually achieve the planned numbers . The only reason that they're not building light metro is because of the suburbs' extensions which would be costlier to build.

The thing is that the difference in operating costs' savings was never analysed versus the cost of building a full fledge light metro through the suburbs, or to have a high frequency light metro with smaller stations compared to LRT.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby

50 m stations vs 180 m stations is a big difference in terms of cost. Plus, a fair portion of the tunnel was cut and covered not bored, all the underground stations were dug out, not mined.

The initial project called for a deep bored tunnel. The winning bidder mentioned didn't want to, so they proposed shorter stations and wider vehicles with a shallow tunnel. They respected the 15kphpd number.

This is another reason why I never understood all the bloated planning in Ottawa. They could have said, we need capacity for 30kphpd in 2050. We need that many stations, show me your plan. Planners have no interest in finding the cheaper route, builders yes.

From the Delcan Rail System Study document:

Note 1: In order to meet the 2031 core capacity requirement, the vehicles associated with the LRT system will require
operation with less distance between them. This requires a more modern Automatic Train Control (ATC) system such as
the Communications Based Train Control (CBTC) system.

Basically, you will pay to have an operator that does actually nothing in the train, much like in Montreal where the system has also ATC.

[harls]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

Government of Canada Invests in Ottawa Public Transit

OTTAWA, ONTARIO--(Marketwire - June 8, 2010) - The Honourable John Baird, Canada's Transport and Infrastructure Minister and Member of Parliament for Ottawa West-Nepean, along with Members of Parliament representing Ottawa, including the Honourable Gordon O'Connor, Pierre Poilievre, and Royal Galipeau, today announced that the Government of Canada will set aside up to $600 million for the City of Ottawa's Transit Plan.

Some careful wording there..