Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by paradigm4

I could be reading these numbers wrong, but it seems to me like a simple case of build it and they will come.

I suspect that's strongly the case, and it makes sense to me that it would be largely due to the traffic congestion. It'll be very interesting to see what happens to transit ridership numbers south of the Fraser when the Gateway project opens in 2012/2013.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by WBC

Yes, God forbid that trains get so "full" that some of the Vancouverites may even have to touch . Get a life people. Canada Line is not busy by any stretch of imagination.

"Some" people have this brainwashed idea that if they don't get to sit their lazy ass down. The train is full.

[SpongeG]

haha
can't sit next to a stranger either

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by cabotp

I guess because they don't know when I board a bus or Skytrain due to not swipping in my monthly pass. That for people who bought a monthly pass they just assume each person would make a certain amount of trips per month with a certain number of boardings per trip.

I'd imagine bus drivers are periodically asked to "count" the passengers when polling for numbers.

[DKaz]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

haha
can't sit next to a stranger either

And must sit in the aisle seat even though the window seat is empty, and your spouse can't sit next to you either, has to be in another pair of seats in the aisle seat.

[Zassk]

When I took the Canada Line on Thursday at 5:30 at VCC, I was clinging to the doorframe because the train was completely full. The Rotem trains have an issue with not enough handholds. That said, I would not say that the train was beyond capacity, it was merely at capacity - since nobody was left behind at any of the stations, and it only stayed that packed until Broadway. The next and previous trains, which would have been for the airport, were most likely less full. This is probably the way subway lines are intended to operate, and I'm guessing this is exactly how Expo Line runs - as close to 100% as possible at the tip of the daily peak, and somewhat below 100% the rest of the day. Since we still have 25% vehicles in reserve, I would say the line is fine for now. I would hope to hear the gov't announce a purchase of more cars soon after Evergreen opens, or certainly in conjunction with an M-line extension. The M-line would add a massive amount of new passengers to what is already the busiest segment of the C-line (but that's still preferable to those people transferring to the Expo line).

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by DKaz

And must sit in the aisle seat even though the window seat is empty, and your spouse can't sit next to you either, has to be in another pair of seats in the aisle seat.

Why would someone not want to sit beside their spouse. If that is the case why not just get a divorce

[DKaz]

Originally Posted by cabotp

Why would someone not want to sit beside their spouse. If that is the case why not just get a divorce

A lot of older Chinese couples are like that, I always find it odd.

[eduardo88]

The thing I don't get is why they aren't running 18 out of 20 trains, 10% spares seems reasonable enough, especially if you alternate out of service trains for maintenance/inspections on a weekly basis

Does anyone know what the frequency increases would be like if they put in 2 more trainsets?

[Zassk]

I recall that in March, immediately after the Olympics, InTransit said that there was an existing plan to increase the number of trains in service later in 2010, but that a software upgrade was necessary first. A specific number of trains was not given, though.

Given that we currently get 3.8-minute service with 14 trains, my math says we will get 3-minute service at 18 trains, and 2.7-minute service at 20 trains.

[Spork]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

I'd imagine bus drivers are periodically asked to "count" the passengers when polling for numbers.

I would guess that the periodic ridership surveys set averages for each type of pass. Multiply that by the number of passes sold, and voila. A large enough sample size (which really isn't that large) should provide a surprisingly accurate count.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by eduardo88

The thing I don't get is why they aren't running 18 out of 20 trains, 10% spares seems reasonable enough, especially if you alternate out of service trains for maintenance/inspections on a weekly basis

Does anyone know what the frequency increases would be like if they put in 2 more trainsets?

When the PPP deal was signed. It was set up to have 16 trains running. I believe the deal is at the end of 2010 or beginning of 2011. 2 more trains will be added on a regular basis.

[Gordon]

I think the fare boxes have the ability to do passenger counts.

18 out of 20 trains leaves about 10% spares which seems good tom me.

[deasine]

There are digital infrared counters on the back of some buses that do the counting.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

I'd imagine bus drivers are periodically asked to "count" the passengers when polling for numbers.

When I used to have a monthly pass and ride the bus, I would notice the driver push a button on the console of the Ticket Machine. Not every time, but often enough that it looked like they do fairly frequent audits of ridership on routes (or at least the routes I used to use). I think on a lot of routes the reason is two fold too. They like to make sure there are enough buses on the busy routes, as well the driver needs to keep track as best as possible the number of people on the bus, as they do have a maximum capacity.

At Skytrain stations without automatic counters, I've seen staff that look like all they are doing is counting heads. So you don't have to count a solid period, you can guesstimate pretty accurately a daily average using counts from different times on different days (which is probably why, outside the Olympics, they release averages instead of daily specifics).

[Locked In]

Not sure if any of this is new information...

Canada Line races toward capacity

The SkyTrain branch nears 100,000 riders per day three years ahead of schedule after Olympics brought the crowds out

By Kelly Sinoski, Vancouver Sun June 1, 2010 11:02 PM



The new Canada Line is nearing capacity three years ahead of schedule, prompting TransLink to look at "tactical options" to help ease pressure on the 19-km route.

The line has been recording an average of 94,000 trips per day — just shy of its capacity of 100,000 riders, a number TransLink had not expected to reach until 2013. It now anticipates it could reach that number as early as next year.

While immediate options to ease overcrowding include running an extra train from Brighouse during peak periods, passengers won't see any more trains running regularly between Vancouver and Richmond until the summer of 2011.

TransLink believes passenger numbers are higher than projected due in part to the Olympic need to get drivers off the roads, as well as a push to funnel suburban bus commuters to the new line.

"You make your projections on what you know ... years in advance of the project startup," TransLink spokesman Ken Hardie said. "It's probably the Olympics that have been the key difference [between] what we were expecting and what we have."

Ridership on the $2-billion Canada Line has been growing steadily since it began operating last August.

Hardie didn't have a total count of how many new riders are taking the train, but according to TransLink figures, the number of daily commuters from south Surrey and White Rock using the No. 351 bus was up 38.9 per cent in May from last June.

Weekend traffic also rose by 52.5 per cent on Saturdays and 53.2 per cent on Sundays.

That increase, as well as a rise in commuters from Richmond, Delta and Vancouver, has contributed to passenger crunches along the Canada Line.

The squeeze is particularly severe at Brighouse, the transit hub for all local Richmond buses, and Bridgeport, where buses shuttle long-haul commuters from Delta, south Surrey and White Rock, during rush hour.

For Percy Bond, this means he never gets a seat when he boards the train at Brighouse for his commute into Vancouver. The only way he can do so, he said, is to get off at Bridgeport and take the airport train, which is usually empty, into downtown.

"I like [Canada Line] except for the fact it's always full," he said. "What surprises me is they can't put three cars on ... it would be nice to see in the rush hour."

Hardie said that now, TransLink typically runs 14 of its 20 Canada Line trains, each with two cars, at 3.5-minute intervals, with another two trains added at rush hour.

By August of 2011, the transit authority plans to regularly run 16 trains, which will represent a 12-per-cent lift in service, every 3.33 minutes.

Hardie wouldn't say how much this would cost.

But he noted that when "we run more transit, we spend more money."

But that doesn't mean commuters won't see any improvements this year, he said, as TransLink has the option to improve service during peak periods to deal with severe overcrowding or pass-ups.

Options include adding extra trains to the Brighouse line during "peak of peak" periods, he said, as well as having buses scheduled for Brighouse shifted to Bridgeport, where commuters can catch a second, nearly empty train, from the airport.

While the airport trains don't have the same passenger numbers, Hardie said TransLink isn't considering moving some of those trains to the Brighouse line. He noted a new park and ride facility at Templeton on the YVR line is drawing more transit users and airport traffic is expected to rise. The park and ride is for airport workers and passengers, who are travelling on the Sea Island route.

The YVR line carries an average 9,300 passengers per day, or 10 per cent of the total ridership, compared with 15 per cent on the Richmond line.

Hardie noted the Canada Line has only been running for less than 10 months so it's still early days and variables such as high fuel costs or parking can have an effect on transit use.

Vancouver commuter Ken Law, who lives at 49th and Cambie, drove downtown regularly until the Olympics. He said transit has proven to be more convenient, faster and cheaper, especially with higher parking prices expected with the HST.

"I find it okay," he said. "If you can save money and don't have to drive, there's less stress."

Hardie noted he expects ridership to continue to grow, especially as municipalities continue to densify areas around the transit stations.

Richmond has been densifying its city centre since 2000 in anticipation of huge transit use of the Canada Line. "There was a pent-up demand for effective, reliable transit in the Richmond, Vancouver transit corridor," Mayor Malcolm Brodie said.

Meanwhile, Hardie noted there is another silver lining for TransLink if the Canada Line reaches its capacity by next year.

The rapid transit line was built as a public-private partnership, with TransLink guaranteeing to subsidize ridership shortfalls of less than 100,000 per day. It must also provide operator InTransitBC with some capital, as well as debt-service costs of $38 million to $39 million over the life of the 35-year agreement.

Once it hits an average 100,000 riders, Canada Line will reach the break-even point in covering its own operating costs, similar to the Expo and Millennium lines.

"With a lift in capacity next year, that could move [ridership] pretty darn close," Hardie said, but added: "All signs still point to TransLink having to hustle to meet up with the demand."

[email protected]
© Copyright (c) The Vancouver Sun

Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/thoug...apacity/3100040/story.html#ixzz0pfpBM9oQ

Source: Vancouver Sun

[mr.x]

One big sigh....albeit an obvious ridership success. I can't believe they're still using only 14 trains, and next year's increase will only add 2 trains for a total of 16. It needs 18 today! Unbelievable.

If this were BCRTC-operated SkyTrain, there wouldn't be any of this nonsense...it doesn't cost THAT much to immediately put 2 or even 4 more trains onto the system. The only thing that's obviously stopping them is the P3 contract.




"You make your projections on what you know ... years in advance of the project startup," TransLink spokesman Ken Hardie said. "It's probably the Olympics that have been the key difference [between] what we were expecting and what we have."

The Olympics has increased ridership marginally, I certainly wouldn't put the spotlight on the effect of the Games entirely...we saw the numbers before the Games started and they were already quite high.

You sure did screw up on the ridership projections, Translink...or RAVCO, whatever. It was incredibly clear from the beginning, during the planning process, that this line would see high ridership.

It's almost unheard of that a new rapid transit rail service is near/at capacity 10 months after opening, and on top of that not much will be done to alleviate congestion. It's a clusterf@ck.

[twoNeurons]

It's efficient. Using fewer trains that are full is much preferable to more half-empty ones. RavCo gets better use out of the trains, Translink doesn't pay any extra payments.

Interesting the wording:

Once it hits an average 100,000 riders, Canada Line will reach the break-even point in covering its own operating costs, similar to the Expo and Millennium lines.

I suspect that the actual operating costs won't be covered by 100,000 per day. That's just from Translink's POV. That's the number where they stop subsidizing ridership. I wonder what the actual break-even point is. My guess is that it's gotta be higher for RavCo but it's a long-term investment for them. They also have to pay off the money they put into capital in the 35 years. I wonder how long that will take.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by Locked In

Not sure if any of this is new information...


Source: Vancouver Sun

So when do we sign the order for the new 'C cars' to expand these trains?
After all, its gonna take a few years to build them and renovate the stations to handle 50M trains.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by mr.x

One big sigh....albeit an obvious ridership success. I can't believe they're still using only 14 trains, and next year's increase will only add 2 trains for a total of 16. It needs 18 today! Unbelievable.

If this were BCRTC-operated SkyTrain, there wouldn't be any of this nonsense...it doesn't cost THAT much to immediately put 2 or even 4 more trains onto the system. The only thing that's obviously stopping them is the P3 contract.




"You make your projections on what you know ... years in advance of the project startup," TransLink spokesman Ken Hardie said. "It's probably the Olympics that have been the key difference [between] what we were expecting and what we have."

The Olympics has increased ridership marginally, I certainly wouldn't put the spotlight on the effect of the Games entirely...we saw the numbers before the Games started and they were already quite high.

You sure did screw up on the ridership projections, Translink...or RAVCO, whatever. It was incredibly clear from the beginning, during the planning process, that this line would see high ridership.

It's almost unheard of that a new rapid transit rail service is near/at capacity 10 months after opening, and on top of that not much will be done to alleviate congestion. It's a clusterf@ck.

At least this is better than Seattle, where they're still hoping to get 100,000 riders per week on their new LRT. It seems the planners are damned if they under-estimate or if they over-estimate. I wonder why its so hard to accurately estimate?