Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[tybuilding]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

Funny how there isn't a comments area for the story.

There are no comments for any of the stories the Vancouver Sun or Province websites, it would be nice.

[trofirhen]

On top of all this yes / no argumentation, if, as someone mentioned earlier,the skytrain rrt westward is tunnel-bored under 10th avenue, it will have nowhere near the disruptive impact that Canada Line cut-and-cover did. So, if one sticks to that premise as the future way, the NIMBY's and tight-assed ZWEI-clones might just shut-the-freak-up a little more.

[Vonny]

Originally Posted by racc

I'm sure not all of them feel like Mary (assuming that this is a serious post, not some kind of joke), it is not necessarily the volume of people that is the issue.
http://www.westender.com/articles/entry/...d-transit-line-on-broadway/#comment-7421

BARSTA view on skytrain is that basically, it increases crime and congestion (sic), and is associated with all sort of negative cliches you can think of, as you will be able to read here:
http://westvancouver.ca/uploadedFiles/Yo...nd_Minutes/2009/October/09oct19-cc17.pdf

[lezard]

Originally Posted by Vonny

BARSTA view on skytrain is that basically, it increases crime and congestion (sic), and is associated with all sort of negative cliches you can think of, as you will be able to read here:
http://westvancouver.ca/uploadedFiles/Yo...nd_Minutes/2009/October/09oct19-cc17.pdf

I think, what we are seeing here is the result of arguing for Transit modes without taking into account their principal target users.

A "ding-Ding" streetcar or street level LRT will be most efficient at moving those people that are aiming for the short trip commute and/or the shopping trip.

Grade separated or underground LRT (Skytrain) mainly targets the longer trip user.

In both cases, and assuming there is no choice between modes, then the long trip respectively the short trip users will still use the mode but will find it less than ideal.

If, like in many greater metropolises, there is choice, i. e. both modes running parallel to each other, than the users will segregate themselves according to their needs.

It goes without saying Vancouver will not be able to afford that option for the next few decades.

Those of us who want Skytrain are in fact thinking most of the long trip users and its value to the regional commute.

Those who would prefer Streetcar or LRT are thinking more of the commercial advantages to the corridor it would serve.

The choice of mode for the corridor will have to be a choice of which transit user Translink is essentially targeting.

[trofirhen]

This is shaping up to be a toughie - due to the cost factor more than any of the other factors.
However, IMHO, extending the Millenium Line to Cambie to link up with the Canada Line is unarguably and vitally necessary

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by Vonny

BARSTA view on skytrain is that basically, it increases crime and congestion (sic), and is associated with all sort of negative cliches you can think of, as you will be able to read here:
http://westvancouver.ca/uploadedFiles/Yo...nd_Minutes/2009/October/09oct19-cc17.pdf

Has there been any Police or Translink stats released showing crimes around the new stations since the Canada Line opened last year?

[satishreddy]

Originally Posted by punface

Article in The Province titled "SkyTrain Alternatives Pondered": http://www.theprovince.com/SkyTrain+alternatives+pondered/3076653/story.html

Features our friends Mel Lehan and the BARSTA.

I read this article. Let me add my 2cents. I think some of my comments are similar to those of others.

Here are some quotes from the article and my responses:

(1) The group is concerned about losing quality of life. The are concerned that Skytrain will destroy existing neighborhoods.

Exactly how is quality of life going to be lost if there is a subway. It will barely be noticed visually. Is "quality of life" code word for keeping the hordes from "east" out of their neighborhood.

To counter this argument, we simply have to keep saying that a subway will not compromise quality of life. It will improve it. It will be out of the way. It will reduce the number of buses that go through the neighborhood, reducing noise and pollution. It will also reduce travel time for people for people using transit trying to go to downtown, the airport, central Broadway, Burnaby, etc.

(2) Greg Booth of the Upper Kitsilano Residents Association said locals are worried about high passenger volumes going through their neighbourhood.

The Broadway corridor with the 9, 17, 99 buses already has the transit ridership of any region in Metro Vancouver. There are already high passenger volumes going through their neighborhood. With a subway, the high volumes won't be noticed.

In the Kits and Point Grey regions, I suspect a subway will have stops at MacDonald, Alma, and Sasamat. With increased ridership, there will be a few more people getting off at these stops.

(3) Booth said most residents prefer surface light-rail, whether it's a streetcar, tram or electric trolley line.

Compared with a subway, surface rail will have a significantly more negative impact on the streetscape and quality of life.

There is no point building a tram, streetcar, light rail, etc unless it has a greater capacity and is faster than the 99 bus. We already have a tram/streetcar - the 9 bus. Any lightrail system will have to be partially grade separated in order to have travel times that less than the 99 bus. The lightrail system will cut the neighborhood in half. Thru lanes on broadway will be reduced and parking may have to be eliminated. How is that going to benefit people?

Note also that building a surface system will involve tearing up the street along Broadway and 10th Avenue for a couple of years. How will that improve people's quality of life?

People, I think it is better to focus on arguments based on facts rather than getting into a name calling contest. We may not be able to convince all people about the benefits of a subway, but we should focus on the large group of people in the middle.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

However, IMHO, extending the Millenium Line to Cambie to link up with the Canada Line is unarguably and vitally necessary

On this note, I was highly encouraged by a certain quote in the Vancouver Sun article posted in the Evergreen Line thread. Specifically the following:

Originally Posted by Shirley Bond in the Vancouver Sun

"They recognize -- I'm sure that everyone else does -- what a priority this is, not just for Coquitlam and that area but, in fact, for everyone who would benefit from the use of that line being connected to SkyTrain and ultimately Canada Line," she said.

It makes me wonder if an announcement is in the pipeline for a "phase 1" from VCC-Clark to Canada Line. Perhaps a "feel-good" announcement for the next election.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Zassk

On this note, I was highly encouraged by a certain quote in the Vancouver Sun article posted in the Evergreen Line thread. Specifically the following:



It makes me wonder if an announcement is in the pipeline for a "phase 1" from VCC-Clark to Canada Line. Perhaps a "feel-good" announcement for the next election.

The delay in this announcement has been ridiculous. If it was status quo I'm not sure why they'd wait so long. I have a feeling it is either something like you describe as a "phase 1", or, more likely, they are struggling just to get enough money for Evergreen.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by lezard

I think, what we are seeing here is the result of arguing for Transit modes without taking into account their principal target users.

A "ding-Ding" streetcar or street level LRT will be most efficient at moving those people that are aiming for the short trip commute and/or the shopping trip.

Grade separated or underground LRT (Skytrain) mainly targets the longer trip user.

In both cases, and assuming there is no choice between modes, then the long trip respectively the short trip users will still use the mode but will find it less than ideal.

If, like in many greater metropolises, there is choice, i. e. both modes running parallel to each other, than the users will segregate themselves according to their needs.

It goes without saying Vancouver will not be able to afford that option for the next few decades.

Those of us who want Skytrain are in fact thinking most of the long trip users and its value to the regional commute.

Those who would prefer Streetcar or LRT are thinking more of the commercial advantages to the corridor it would serve.

The choice of mode for the corridor will have to be a choice of which transit user Translink is essentially targeting.

I think this is the root of the issue. Who is going to use the system and more importantly, who travels only inside the Broadway Corridor?

As it is now, and will be for the foreseeable future, the Broadway Corridor isn't a single community, it's a series of communities all in a linear path. Broadway Corridor isn't like taking downtown and unraveling it like your intestines. Most point to point trips, even the ones only inside the corridor, are typically really long trips.

If you were to track any one person leaving a random building on Broadway and getting on a bus, the odds of them staying inside the corridor are slim. It would be a good bet they are leaving the area, either UBC, Downtown, Canada Line (to Richmond or beyond) or Commercial for the Skytrain (taking them anywhere). It's a minority of people who would be staying on Broadway itself. Why build a tram, which supports local short distance travel, for the direct benefit of the minority of travelers?

LRT/Tram would be great for local travel, but I would argue that noone making local trips would be going east-west very far, making even a tram almost pointless in their day to day lives. More likely they would be more interested in to-from downtown.

That's why Skytrain is so foreign to residents in Kits or Point Grey. They don't care one tiny bit about other parts of Broadway. They live in Kits, hop on a bus or bike, and 10 minutes later they are where they want to be: DOWNTOWN. How many people that live in Kits regularly travel further east than Cambie or Main street, or even Granville for that mater.

I would argue that Skytrain under Broadway isn't for the residents in Kits or Point Grey, it's for the rest of the region. Their concerns and ideas should be taken into account, but Skytrain isn't being built just for them. People outside the Broadway Corridor want to get to their jobs and schools in a reasonable amount of time. And Translink wants to save money in the long run. Financing skytrain might have a huge upfront cost, but over time it's far cheaper to run than the current (and future) volume of buses needed on the road.

[CLC]

Bad news for Skytrain lobbists... Wednesday long closure of Surrey track is now described as first derailment in 25 years

TransLink investigates SkyTrain derailment

By Kelly Sinoski, Vancouver Sun May 28, 2010 3:49 PM

METRO VANCOUVER -- TransLink is trying to figure out how one of its SkyTrains lost a piece of its brake on the Expo line tracks Wednesday, leading to the derailment of a second train and the closure of a section of track for five hours.

Doug Kelsey, president of B.C. Rapid Transit Co., said the second train was out of service and pulling into the turnaround section of track — past the King George SkyTrain station — on Wednesday morning when it struck a brake caliper lodged in the track. The collision forced one of the train's axles to jump out of the track and derail.

No one was aboard as the train was in the no-passenger zone, Kelsey said, so there was no risk to the public. The train had been travelling between four and eight kilometres an hour.

"This has never happened before, in 25 years," Kelsey said. "We're quite perplexed by it."

Meanwhile, the first train, which had continued on the route, was stopped at either the King George or Surrey Central stations and placed in quarantine, Kelsey said, while the section of track between Gateway and King George stations was closed. A bus bridge set up to ferry passengers to the Surrey Central or King George stations.

The tracks were reopened at 4:05 p.m. just before rush hour.

Kelsey noted the travelling public was never in jeopardy as SkyTrains have a multiple braking system — including an emergency stop mechanism — in each car. The brake caliper was one of the original pieces on the SkyTrain, which has been operating since 1995.

All the trains are inspected every six weeks. The quarantined train was due for an inspection in two weeks' time, Kelsey said.

The whole fleet has since been inspected and Kelsey said as a precaution the checks will now take place every three weeks.

The train will remain in quarantine until technical staff figure out what happened. "We won't be moving it until we determine what caused [the brake piece to fall off]," he said, but added: "The public is absolutely safe out there."

[email protected]

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by Zassk

On this note, I was highly encouraged by a certain quote in the Vancouver Sun article posted in the Evergreen Line thread. Specifically the following:



It makes me wonder if an announcement is in the pipeline for a "phase 1" from VCC-Clark to Canada Line. Perhaps a "feel-good" announcement for the next election.

If the politicians are itching to announce Phase 1 of the UBC line (VCC to Cambie), they aren't so stupid as to do it before the UBC Line Rapid Transit Study public consultation is finished.

Its my understanding from the UBC line study website ( http://bepartoftheplan.ca ) that the public consultation part of phase II has wrapped for the summer while the planners digest what they heard from the public and turn those ideas into more detailed studies of the short-listed alternatives. In the Fall, there will be another round of public comments on these revised short-listed alternatives with hopes of getting to a single preferred choice by the Spring of 2011.

Then the politicians can make their announcement of funding the preferred choice - even if its only from VCC to Cambie - but they'd be crazy to give the UBC line the go-ahead before Evergreen starts construction.

I'm not expecting a funding announcement for the UBC line until Evergreen is months or a year into construction, with UBC line construction starting (or at least the contractor announced) in time for the May 2013 Election.

[eduardo88]

that's completely true. i used to live in point grey, and i can't name a single time i ventured past main (or even cambie for that matter)

[lezard]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

I think this is the root of the issue. Who is going to use the system and more importantly, who travels only inside the Broadway Corridor?

As it is now, and will be for the foreseeable future, the Broadway Corridor isn't a single community, it's a series of communities all in a linear path. Broadway Corridor isn't like taking downtown and unraveling it like your intestines. Most point to point trips, even the ones only inside the corridor, are typically really long trips.

If you were to track any one person leaving a random building on Broadway and getting on a bus, the odds of them staying inside the corridor are slim. It would be a good bet they are leaving the area, either UBC, Downtown, Canada Line (to Richmond or beyond) or Commercial for the Skytrain (taking them anywhere). It's a minority of people who would be staying on Broadway itself. Why build a tram, which supports local short distance travel, for the direct benefit of the minority of travelers?

LRT/Tram would be great for local travel, but I would argue that noone making local trips would be going east-west very far, making even a tram almost pointless in their day to day lives. More likely they would be more interested in to-from downtown.

That's why Skytrain is so foreign to residents in Kits or Point Grey. They don't care one tiny bit about other parts of Broadway. They live in Kits, hop on a bus or bike, and 10 minutes later they are where they want to be: DOWNTOWN. How many people that live in Kits regularly travel further east than Cambie or Main street, or even Granville for that mater.

I would argue that Skytrain under Broadway isn't for the residents in Kits or Point Grey, it's for the rest of the region. Their concerns and ideas should be taken into account, but Skytrain isn't being built just for them. People outside the Broadway Corridor want to get to their jobs and schools in a reasonable amount of time. And Translink wants to save money in the long run. Financing skytrain might have a huge upfront cost, but over time it's far cheaper to run than the current (and future) volume of buses needed on the road.

I've been trying to find a breakdown of the 100'000 daily trips quoted by Translink by trip length or number of stops and mybe trip purpose.

I'm not sure the short trips are that much of a minority. I remember coming across an estimate of the UBC ridership, and if I recall correctly, it was some 40% of the corridor ridership. Add the other long distance commuters and their might still be a sizable portion of short trippers.

I can't agree with satishreddy concerning the point where Streetcar makes sense. Street level streetcar is warranted along any corridor where the ridership reaches the maximum capacity of the existing rubber based transit mode.

I think you might be surprised by how many people use the east west corridor for their daily needs. Anyone living with a few blocks of Broadway might find the B.Line rather handy to reach the shopping district between Cambie and Main, More so now where major London Drugs, Canadian Tire, Home Depot and others are setting up in the corridor.

Streetcar/LRT typically doubles or even quadruples the capacity of a corridor. The speed gain comes from a combination of the higher acceleration and braking characteristics of rail based vehicles and the freeing up of the roadbed by retiring the bus/trolley mode along the corridor.

That means less vehicles on the road. Add to that, assuming of course the accompanying measures necessary are implemented, the reduction in private vehicle trips along the corridor, the reduction in traffic should allow for a smoother flow for the Streetcar/LRT.

That's if your principal goal is to augment capacity without adding significant speed gains. The price of that option is significantly lower than the option that both upgrades capacity and speed.

For that, you need grade separation, either underground, overpasses at all road crossings or elevated tracks.

So, Streetcar and grade separated LRT are not truly competing technologies. they target different levels of transit capacity at different costs and each with their own advantages and disadvantages.

The choice will boil down to how much the Province and Translink are willing to invest in the corridor and what level of capacity can be achieved with the available funding determined by the first choice.

It looks more and more likely to me that it will be combination of grade separated LRT to Cambie and Streetcar/LRT or Rapidbus/B-Line from there to UBC.

[mr.x]

Oh please let it be the Octopus projects consortium....




Bids coming to create TransLink's fare gate and smart card system, due in 2013


By Staff Reporter, The Province
May 28, 2010 2:02 PM

METRO VANCOUVER — Those TransLink “smart cards” and fare gates heading for service in 2013 got a step closer this week with selection of three companies to submit proposals for the multi-million-dollar electronic payment system.

The three consortia are: Thales/Octopus International Projects, which has provided systems in Hong Kong; Serco/Parkeon, which created a system for Perth in Australia; and Cubic/IBM, whose systems include London’s “Oyster Card.”

TransLink’s smart cards will be loadable with funds that will be drawn down by electronic readers that calculate fares based on point of entry, departure, route and time of day.

The transit authority says the data will allow it to plan service more efficiently by generating a “significant amount of data” on how riders use the system.

As part of the project, fare gates will be installed in SkyTrain and SeaBus stations, which were built without them. Modifications will also be made to Expo Line SkyTrain stations, most of which were not designed with enough space for fare gates.

TransLink officials said Friday that Victoria will contribute $40 million to the project, Ottawa $30 million and the remainder could be covered by TransLink.

The three consortia will be asked in June to develop formal proposals. A contract — which will include operation and maintenance of the system for 10 years — will be awarded later this year.
© Copyright (c) The Province



Read more: http://www.theprovince.com/business/Bids...em+2013/3084245/story.html#ixzz0pHJaGJof

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by eduardo88

that's completely true. i used to live in point grey, and i can't name a single time i ventured past main (or even cambie for that matter)

A few years ago some friends and I decided to go to the Abbotsford Air show. After driving from Vancouver through Burnaby & over the Port Mann, one of them said "So this is where Surrey is!" I nearly drove off the road in amazement.

He'd never been out of Vancouver (except to use the airport) since graduating from BCIT in the early 90s.

The rest of the party crew admitted that they sometimes needed to go to Burnaby, the North Shore or Richmond, but none could remember visiting anywhere else in the GVRD since moving to Vancouver. None of us were born & raised in Vancouver - we're all imports from back east who refused to spend another minute of our lives shoveling snow.

Before the air show trip, I had been to Abbotsford on business visiting a client once a week until they moved their offices to Burnaby, but I don't think any of us have been east of Burnaby since that trip to the Abbotsford Air show. (flying over en route to/from YVR doesn't count)

[GeeCee]

Hey mr. X, care to post some of their work?

[deasine]

Please direct all smart card related discussions to its dedicated thread.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by deasine

Please direct all smart card related discussions to its dedicated thread.

haha, whoops my bad...


Anyhow, something that zwei quoted on his blog:

Canada’s gridlocked mayors call for multi-level strategy on transit

By Mike De Souza, Canwest News Service

OTTAWA — Gridlock and lack of federal funding for public transit is jeopardizing Canada’s economic recovery, say mayors from across the country.

Heading into an annual conference this week in Toronto, the Federation of Canadian Municipalities is hoping the Harper government addresses some of their transit woes that have left some of the country’s largest urban centres at the bottom of a recent international ranking on traffic gridlock and the daily commute.

“Ultimately, it comes down to sustainable funding for transit because the federal government has been very good, along with the provincial governments across the country and in our region, at building infrastructure,” said Langley, B.C., Mayor Peter Fassbender. “But our challenge is the operating funds to ensure that we will meet the transit needs of the future.”

Fassbender said the three levels of government in Canada need to come up with a long-term plan that addresses not only the movement of passengers, but also the transportation of goods and services.

“That is going to feed into the economic strategy for the country, for the provinces and for each of the municipalities involved,” said Fassbender, also the chair of the mayor’s council for TransLink, Metro Vancouver’s regional transportation authority.

Meanwhile, a 19-city analysis by the Toronto Board of Trade concluded in April that five Canadian cities had some of the longest average commute times to and from work.

While Barcelona was on top with an average daily commute time of 48.4 minutes, Montreal and Toronto were at the bottom with commute times estimated at 76 minutes and 80 minutes respectively. Halifax was 10th in the analysis, with a 65-minute commute, while Calgary and Vancouver took both the 13th and 14th places, each with an average trek of 67 minutes.

The survey showed that Canadians in these cities were facing longer commutes than people in the busy centres of Milan, Los Angeles and Berlin.

Claude Dauphin, the mayor the Montreal borough of Lachine, noted that his region has one of the highest proportions of transit users for its population, but he said that cities across Canada all have enormous needs to upgrade and operate their services and reduce congestion.

He added that Canada is the only G8 country without a national transit strategy.

“Congestion is causing a lot of problems to our economy and that’s not the kind of thing we’ll solve tomorrow morning,” said Dauphin. “All the leaders of the different (federal) political parties will have to address this question, or we will have to ask them this question.”

The mayors, who are expecting to hear from Prime Minister Stephen Harper during their conference on Friday, said a new long-term strategy with funding for transit issues would also address pollution and climate change concerns.

While they acknowledge that federal and provincial governments have started to reinvest in infrastructure after a period of cuts in the 1990s, the municipal politicians say they need a long-term solution for revenues that goes beyond property taxes.

Regina Mayor Pat Fiacco said all forms of infrastructure require more investments in cities, including waste-water systems which are slated to meet new treatment standards that would require billions of dollars in new investments.

“There’s got to be a better way of conducting infrastructure business,” said Fiacco. “We are in the 21st century and we’re still living on a model from 1867, and that’s not right.”

The cities have maintained that they only have eight per cent of total government-tax revenues in Canada to work with, but must deliver more in terms of services and infrastructure investments.

“We (municipalities) have the most limited resources available to us and we need to look at what can be done differently,” said Fiacco. “What is it that we can do differently to ensure that we will not be in an infrastructure crisis? Some would say that we already are.”

http://go2.wordpress.com/?id=725X1342&si...A%2F%2Frailforthevalley.wordpress.com%2F





And his blog response to this article:

The following news item shows that the issue of public and regional transit and funding of transit is beginning to creep into the politicians radar. Throwing more money at transit will not solve very much as politicians have a very strange habit of funding their ‘pet‘ projects. The federal government can help by rewriting the ‘Railways Act’ to take into account their almost total monopoly over railway infrastructure, the vast majority of it paid for by the Canadian taxpayer. Small commuter-rail lines and the advent of the TramTrain, means that the national and regional railways must make available (by statute or contract) train pathways for such services on their rails.

RFV makes the following suggestions for Canada’s ‘gridlocked‘ mayors to make of the federal government.

1. Mandate by law that railway companies must allow passenger/commuter rail/tramtrain service on their lines.
2. Mandate by law that all disused or abandoned rail routes, in urban areas, are kept for ‘rail‘ transit use.
3. Mandate by law a funding cap of $25 million/km. be placed on all road and rail transit projects; all costs above the funding cap must be approved by local referendum.
4. Mandate by law a full and open independent review of all transit projects, which cost over $100 million.
5. A review and implementation of new road and highway safety rules for railway crossings, with the onus placed on the auto driver to obey such rules.

Such laws in place in Canada would help curb the present mania for gold-plated transit projects so favoured by politicians and bureaucrats, as well leave open cheaper options for ‘rail‘ transit projects hitherto ignored in this country. We are nearing the precipice of ‘peak oil’ and ‘global warming’ and there will be a great need to utilize both existing railway lines and abandoned and disused rail lines. To prepare for the future, our politicos must act now.

[racc]

Another option for Broadway if the government doesn't get around to it. Anyone got a pick and a trowel or two?

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2010/05/russian-man-singlehandedly-builds-subway.php
Russian Man Single-Handedly Builds Underground Subway System

Everybody is into rail these days; it is the greenest way to get around next to a bike. Leonid Mulyanchik has been into it for years since before the Berlin Wall fell, since before the first Macintosh, building "his own private underground Metro railway system." English-Russia says that he has been doing it with his pension, that it is all legal and approved and that he is still at it. Gizmodo calls it "inspiring, one man against all odds type of persistence, but more the obsessive, borderline insane persistence."