Question about shopping districts in Portland

[DizzyEdge]

Hey there, I visited your fine city last week, and loved it. One thing Portland has that Calgary is behind on is block after block after block of small scale mostly independent retail, creating interesting streets. Examples are Alberta Street, NW 23 Ave, etc.

Question I have, if a larger retailer (think say.. Walgreens), wished to purchase up a block side on any of those streets listed above, demolish the existing multiple stores, and put in a new building (perhaps with some condo apts above) with just Walgreens as the sole ground floor tenant, creating a wall of windows (some of which may not really show the interior of the store) but one set of doors, would that get approved? If not, what specifically would be the deal breaker as far as regulations? It's a problem we're having here, either 4-6 small stores get torn down and one single retailer like a drugstore or bank goes in, or these types of retailers fill existing gaps in streetscapes, curious if there are regulations in Portland which would prevent this.

Thanks!

[PacificNW]

Interesting question....I remember Apple wanted to place a store on NW 23rd, but couldn't get the necessary approval for their design, etc. (I think I remember this issue correctly. It was a shame that they ended up changing their minds, (Apple), IMO.

[Okstate]

However, I do think Apple has a great pull for downtown retail...unless of course they could sustain two locations close to one another.

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by Okstate

However, I do think Apple has a great pull for downtown retail...unless of course they could sustain two locations close to one another.

And of course if a shopping district is 15 blocks long, so 30 block-sides, a single Apple store taking up one wouldn't be a big deal, it's when 10 other similar sized retailers follow.

I'm just wondering if Portland has any design guidelines in such districts like maximum retail frontage, max sq ft of retail bays, etc.

[eeldip]

short answer is no. there is nothing in particular stopping that from happening in the city in general. what you describe has happened in portland, knocking down multiple properties, to form a single walgreens/supermarket etc. even with surface parking.

however, different districts have different rules. NW 23rd has a historic district overlay that allows a review that could deny a whole block, single retail space project.

if you are wondering how all these multi-block small retail districts exist, i think its a combination of culture (people like shopping at small independent retail), history (the city just happened to have this sort of building stock in abundance), and economics (big projects tend to happen just outside these districts where land is cheaper, knowing their customers will make the trip).

it is a relatively rare urban development phenomena in america. people are used to seeing that sort of neighborhood in bigger, denser, older cities (san francisco, new york, chicago). cities like portland tend to have just a handful of little shopping districts.

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by eeldip

short answer is no. there is nothing in particular stopping that from happening in the city in general. what you describe has happened in portland, knocking down multiple properties, to form a single walgreens/supermarket etc. even with surface parking.

however, different districts have different rules. NW 23rd has a historic district overlay that allows a review that could deny a whole block, single retail space project.

if you are wondering how all these multi-block small retail districts exist, i think its a combination of culture (people like shopping at small independent retail), history (the city just happened to have this sort of building stock in abundance), and economics (big projects tend to happen just outside these districts where land is cheaper, knowing their customers will make the trip).

it is a relatively rare urban development phenomena in america. people are used to seeing that sort of neighborhood in bigger, denser, older cities (san francisco, new york, chicago). cities like portland tend to have just a handful of little shopping districts.

Thanks eeldip. If something like I mentioned was proposed for a block in NW 23rd, do you think there would be public .. I don't want to say outrage, but vocal concern which would cause a developer to think twice?

On a separate note, one thing I noticed , particularly with Alberta Street, is how many of these long shopping districts just seem to show up out of nowhere, what I mean is they aren't on major roads, so that the shops exist not because already existing car traffic, which means the only car traffic they would tend to have would be that of local residents and people going there as a destination.

[eeldip]

on 23rd a developer would have to be very sensitive about the historic overlay. apple famously got denied because they were holding firm on keeping their corporate branding built into the architecture (if i remember correctly...).

as for the shopping districts appearing "from nowhere"-- the inventory of small shopping districts follow the old streetcar network very closely. there are some exceptions (some major lines followed roads that were later widened for auto traffic, and these streets struggle, the pearl developed near a NEW streetcar).

check this map out, and see how well it corresponds.
http://mysite.ncnetwork.net/res130s1r/1924Map.html

[DizzyEdge]

"on 23rd a developer would have to be very sensitive about the historic overlay. apple famously got denied because they were holding firm on keeping their corporate branding built into the architecture"

Would there be good public support behind such denials? Not just in the neighborhood, but the city as a whole?

Also, cool map. What surprises me seeing that map is that all of those former lines didn't become the main car arteries.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

"on 23rd a developer would have to be very sensitive about the historic overlay. apple famously got denied because they were holding firm on keeping their corporate branding built into the architecture"

Would there be good public support behind such denials? Not just in the neighborhood, but the city as a whole?

Also, cool map. What surprises me seeing that map is that all of those former lines didn't become the main car arteries.

Often times that would require lane widening and would mean tearing down buildings. But not all streetcar routes evolved into main arteries for cars, which is another reason why so many of these districts have survived. Plus there have been changes where needed, streets like Belmont that go from a 2 way street to two one way streets the closer it gets to downtown.

I am not sure what you mean by good public support behind a denial of a building or a company with the city as a whole. If I am reading it correctly, I would say almost every Portlander was probably happy to see Walmart be denied on several occasions.

[DizzyEdge]

Well Warmart is easy to hate

I guess I'm wondering if there's real public ownership of those cool districts, vs people wishing 'silly hall' would let people build what they want on their own property.

Also be thankful you live in a city where widening a street and tearing down shops isn't something done as a matter of practice.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

Also be thankful you live in a city where widening a street and tearing down shops isn't something done as a matter of practice.

Actually I am thankful about that because I grew up in a city that was the complete opposite from here that decided it was best to tear down almost all of its downtown in the name of progress.

[eeldip]

on the other hand, there is a big list of streets/neighborhoods that have been hurt by widening/urban renewal.

lair hill, "jumptown", albina, etc.

i think the only street that benefited in some way from street widening is inner E burnside. during a city street widening project, a cool architectural form was accidently created.

http://www.cafeunknown.com/2006/08/hung-over-on-burnside-they-were-called.html

[MarkDaMan]

I guess I'm wondering if there's real public ownership of those cool districts, vs people wishing 'silly hall' would let people build what they want on their own property.

There is a lot of process in Portland. I think there are some 30 neighborhood associations, and they even have their own office in city hall. When a developer goes too large, or too corporate, or even proposes a design too "radical" the people rise up and squash the project. Sometimes to our dismay on this page.

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by MarkDaMan

There is a lot of process in Portland. I think there are some 30 neighborhood associations, and they even have their own office in city hall. When a developer goes too large, or too corporate, or even proposes a design too "radical" the people rise up and squash the project. Sometimes to our dismay on this page.

Each CA does? or a joint one for all CAs?

[MarkDaMan]

One large office for all, I'm not sure how each association is represented in that office.

http://www.portlandonline.com/oni/

[DizzyEdge]

^^ Very cool