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  #21  
Old Posted May 19, 2010, 1:02 AM
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Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
That's why Mexicans > Dominicans, etc.
Dominican chicken is damn good, though. Better even than Peruvian.

Overall, though, real Mexican cooking is world-class, while Dominican is just casual family-style food. Kinda like comparing French to German.
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  #22  
Old Posted May 19, 2010, 4:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Dominican chicken is damn good, though. Better even than Peruvian.

Overall, though, real Mexican cooking is world-class, while Dominican is just casual family-style food. Kinda like comparing French to German.
Not all German is casual... remember that Vienna was the capital of a large, multiethnic empire and was as cosmopolitan as Paris. Danube is closed, but you should check out Wallse in the West Village for good Austrian food.

I just remember going to the DR and deciding that I would rather starve than eat anything else derived from a plantain.
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  #23  
Old Posted May 19, 2010, 8:39 AM
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Mmmmm plantains...

There is a direct correlation between imperialism (and post-imperialism) and multiethnicity. The most multiethnic cities in human history, places like Rome, Alexandria (Egypt), Kilwa, Timbuktu, Teotihuacán, Tenochtitlán, Cuzco, Beijing, Nanjing, London, Paris, Vienna, Moscow, and of course New York, were also the centers of economy and governance of world powers. Since for most of human history cities couldn't naturally replenish their own population (due to plagues and stuff) they were also naturally reliant on massive amounts of migration and the allure of the city as much as anything else. I would estimate that about 35% (gut feeling, mostly) of Rome's population during its Imperial era was made up of non-Italians, both under bondage and freedmen.

Not even in the modern day are any cities monoethnic.
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  #24  
Old Posted May 19, 2010, 9:46 AM
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The whole Roman empire was multicultural. We had legions of Africans serving on Hadrians wall, Turks serving in Spain and so on.

New York isn't unique and wasn't unique. Each city that has been mentioned was the apex of new technologies and sources of wealth. London has long been a centre of refuge and migration longer than New york and since the founding of New York we had the influxe of hugenots, the irish (as many irish came across to the UK as left to the US), massive waves of jewish migration and there was free movement within the empire, people from all over the world made their way to London.

The difference is, pico hit his nail on the head, no other migration has been romanticised quiet as much.
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  #25  
Old Posted May 19, 2010, 10:40 AM
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Yep I think lauded would be a better word. NYC at the height of its immigration at the turn of the century was still only 40% foreign born, a figure superseded by many cities in the past and in the following years. -However NYC has intricately woven the arrival of migrants as its rasion d'etre and into its history, more so than other comparable cities.
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  #26  
Old Posted May 19, 2010, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hammersklavier View Post
Mmmmm plantains...

There is a direct correlation between imperialism (and post-imperialism) and multiethnicity. The most multiethnic cities in human history, places like Rome, Alexandria (Egypt), Kilwa, Timbuktu, Teotihuacán, Tenochtitlán, Cuzco, Beijing, Nanjing, London, Paris, Vienna, Moscow, and of course New York, were also the centers of economy and governance of world powers. Since for most of human history cities couldn't naturally replenish their own population (due to plagues and stuff) they were also naturally reliant on massive amounts of migration and the allure of the city as much as anything else. I would estimate that about 35% (gut feeling, mostly) of Rome's population during its Imperial era was made up of non-Italians, both under bondage and freedmen.

Not even in the modern day are any cities monoethnic.

But while the United States is a world power, it never really was an imperialist nation like all the other examples you point to were. In the past, multinational empires were created with overwhelming force; and only when the malcontents were purged--or at least silenced--did a tolerant society develop. A few natives might leave their homeland for the imperial capitol, but traditionally, the vast majority of people in conquered lands stayed where they were, often completely ignorant that there was some doofus with a crown calling the shots from halfway around the world. So I'm not denying that ancient cities were multiethnic, I just question how much native culture survives in a relationship initiated by forceful subjugation.

Hence my statement that New York is the first real multicultural city.
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  #27  
Old Posted May 19, 2010, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by pricemazda View Post
The whole Roman empire was multicultural. We had legions of Africans serving on Hadrians wall, Turks serving in Spain and so on.

New York isn't unique and wasn't unique. Each city that has been mentioned was the apex of new technologies and sources of wealth. London has long been a centre of refuge and migration longer than New york and since the founding of New York we had the influxe of hugenots, the irish (as many irish came across to the UK as left to the US), massive waves of jewish migration and there was free movement within the empire, people from all over the world made their way to London.

The difference is, pico hit his nail on the head, no other migration has been romanticised quiet as much.

Legions of Africans? I think you may be revising history a bit. So all these Africans just showed up because they heard there was work up there? Somehow i doubt that.

To say that New York is not at all unique is ridiculous. You're comparing the migration of Irish people into a massive superpower across a tiny little channel, to the migration across an ocean to a still-developing country? You realize the Irish quickly built up a political machine that ran New York for decades. Would that be possible in London? You can argue my point much more succesfully than that, but not without admitting New York has been very unique.

Last edited by pico44; May 19, 2010 at 2:53 PM.
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  #28  
Old Posted May 19, 2010, 12:50 PM
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Long Island and Jersey English should probably be considered distinct dialects, at the very least.
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  #29  
Old Posted May 19, 2010, 3:19 PM
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Originally Posted by hammersklavier View Post
The most multiethnic cities in human history, places like Rome, Alexandria (Egypt), Kilwa, Timbuktu, Teotihuacán, Tenochtitlán, Cuzco, Beijing, Nanjing, London, Paris, Vienna, Moscow, and of course New York...
Quite a bit of diversity in those names. Have Beijing and Nanjing ever really been multiethnic... or just Han Chinese with some Mongols here and there? They're certainly not today. Teotihuacan had people from all over Central America, but was hardly comparable to a Rome, London or New York. But we have to mention all regions, right...
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  #30  
Old Posted May 19, 2010, 4:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hammersklavier View Post
Not even in the modern day are any cities monoethnic.
Tokyo and Seoul do their best. You are correct thought that they are the historical anomalies, NYC's multiculturalism is not the anomaly.

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But while the United States is a world power, it never really was an imperialist nation like all the other examples you point to were. In the past, multinational empires were created with overwhelming force; and only when the malcontents were purged--or at least silenced--did a tolerant society develop.
You're confusing the issue. Whether a city is populated by lots of voluntary migrants, slaves, prisoners, serfs, etc. makes no difference to how multi-cultural it is. High percentages of migrants are high percentages of migrants.

More to the point, only in America do we maintain the myth that NYC was never the center of an empire. Perhaps the US didn't draw a map and claim (many) possesions around the world, but the US has been an economic empire for at least a century, and NYC is the economic heart of that empire. Migrants aren't drawn to NYC for the night life.
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  #31  
Old Posted May 19, 2010, 4:24 PM
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Originally Posted by pico44 View Post
Legions of Africans? I think you may be revising history a bit. So all these Africans just showed up because they heard there was work up there? Somehow i doubt that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_legion

Come on, are you being purposefully dense? No one said a bunch of Africans just showed up on Hadrian's wall because they heard there was work there. That's like saying a bunch of Americans just showed up in Okinawa because they heard the marines were hiring.
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  #32  
Old Posted May 19, 2010, 6:51 PM
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But while the United States is a world power, it never really was an imperialist nation like all the other examples you point to were.
Wikipedia has this wonderful list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_invasions

Relevant parts:

2003 invasion of Iraq by United States-led coalition
2001 invasion of Afghanistan by United States-led coalition
1994 invasion of Haiti by a multinational force (MNF) led by the United States
1991 invasion of Kuwait and southern Iraq by a coalition force of 34 nations led by the United States
1989 invasion of Panama by the United States
1983 invasion of Grenada by the United States and allied Caribbean nations
1970 invasion of Cambodia by the United States and South Vietnam
1965 invasion of Dominican Republic by United States and OAS
1962 invasions of South Vietnam by the United States
1961 invasion of Cuba by Cuban allies of the United States, particularly its CIA
<Break for WWII>
1915 invasion of Haiti by the United States
1898 invasion of the Philippines by the United States
1898 invasion of Puerto Rico by the United States
1898 invasion of Spanish Cuba by the United States
1893 invasion of Hawaii by the United States
1871 invasion of Korea by the United States
1861-1865 invasions of the Confederate States by the United States
1846 invasion of Mexico by United States
1813 invasion of Canada by United States
1812 invasions of Canada by United States
1805 invasion of Tripoli by United States and mercenaries

We could debate a few of these but the bigger picture is that you don't get a list like this by accident, especially over a period of only 200 years.
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  #33  
Old Posted May 19, 2010, 7:16 PM
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Originally Posted by mwadswor View Post
Migrants aren't drawn to NYC for the night life.
What? You're telling me Ecuadorians aren't waiting to get into the China Club every night?
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  #34  
Old Posted May 19, 2010, 7:25 PM
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Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
Wikipedia has this wonderful list:
^ But it's also important to do a little homework before copying and pasting a list from Wikipedia. Many of these are bullshit. For instance, the U.S. never "invaded" Hawaii, and certainly not in 1893.

I hardly think the Civil War should count as an "invasion" of another country. Nor should the first Gulf War (the coalition did not "invade" Kuwait). Nor should Vietnam really, since the French and South Vietnamese invited American advisors and troops. Korea in 1871 wasn't an invasion either. Some were UN actions, like Haiti in 1994, and calling these "imperialist" is ridiculous. Tripoli was a response to piracy, not an effort to gain control of territory in North Africa. I could go on... but only in the cases of Mexico, the Spanish-American war (Cuba, PR, Philippines) and the most recent Gulf War could one argue there was an "imperialist" motive.
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  #35  
Old Posted May 19, 2010, 7:29 PM
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Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
But we have to mention all regions, right...
^ What's with your uncanny obsession over assuming everything is about PC?

I've got news for you:

It's all in your mind
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  #36  
Old Posted May 19, 2010, 7:52 PM
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London had a population of 20,000 Africans by the 1700s I may add, not to mention established communities of Bengali lascars, Chinese sailors and large numbers of Jews, Irish and Huguenot refugees - the last of which its said 50% of 'native' Londoners are derived from (and another, overlapping third of Londoners have Irish ancestry). This was the beginnings of empire - when the first Emglishman set foot in India already there were 3000 Indians living in Britain.


Basically what you are seeing are the rise and fall of multiculturalist waves - Roman, Saxon and medieval London were strongly foreign born, yet with intermittent waves of homogeneity as the children of these emigrants were assimilated. The apogee of assimilation was in the 1920s, where although many Londoners had foreign ancestry, much of it was lost through the generations and barely survived even in name.

This tradition continues, many British born emigrant children already identify with British within one generation - the last leader of the main right wing party, who was anti -immigration was recently 'exposed' as the son of Romanian immigrants who had changed their names. Also the country has the highest intermarriage rates in the West, with 'mixed race' the fastest growing ethnicity. For example although the Caribbean community is huge, its actually endangered, as more than half its members are in mixed relationships. This is the same for continental Europeans and East Asians, and accounts for a third of South Asians.

So in other words London's next generation will be less mixed than the current one - and unlike the US, many people do not identify as Irish/ Polish American etc even within one generation let alone several.


This rise and fall is echoed across Europe, the Roman Empire mixed things up greatly for example, Italy was of course much much more diverse than it is today with every European peoples represented along with Middle Easterners, North Africans, sub-Saharan Africans, Central Asians, and even East Asian slaves and traders. Even after the Roman Empire collapsed it remained very mixed - bear in mind there have been several African Popes since. Likewise with Asia, the great cities of the Silk Road, and the capitals of Beijing, Xian and Nanjing were vast magnets for global trade, religious pilgrims and conquered peoples, such as slaves, servants and soldiers. Not only did they number all the East Asian peoples, but drew travellers from Central Asia, the Middle East and even Europeans such as Greeks, Romans, Gipsies and Jews having communities there too.


Of course the multiculturalism died with assimilation and intermarriage and this is echoed throughout the world. And still is happening today in a cycle of rise and fall.

Take India for a recent example under the Raj, - one third of the English soldiers stationed there took Indian wives and had children, and this English community still survives. Staunch Protestants they retain their English language, names and traditions, and hold marriages only within their community - they now number 800,000 around the world. In India they are traditionally employed on the railways and are known as the Anglo-Indians. Despite their community protectionism this is still the modern day result:

Jacob and Isabella Thomas, with sons Kevin and Shaun (left), Leon Nathaniel (middle), the Gomes family, Calcutta (right):


Sangamam Kochi 2005, www.flickr.com, http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk

20th Century Anglo-Indians - note the British fashions transported straight from London.

Matthew and Coleen Demeder:

Celeste33, http://www.flickr.com/photos/celeste33/40640521,

The Martin Family:

Shazzbazz draws the Line!,http://www.flickr.com/photos/39117859@N00/2741178972

Russell and Enid Fonseca and family:

http://www.sumgenius.com.au

*Of course India is possibly the worlds most multicultural country, vying with certain African countries and Papua New Guinea. 600 languages, thousands of dialects, hundreds of ethncities and thousands of castes.

Last edited by muppet; May 19, 2010 at 8:49 PM.
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  #37  
Old Posted May 19, 2010, 7:53 PM
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^This is echoed around the world as evidence of past rises and falls of multiculturalism. Another good example is Malaysia, where only 50% of its people are ethnically Malay after 600 years of immigration, from 81 ethnic groups. Although there is modern day immigration from other parts of Asia, Europe and Africa, there are major non-Malay communities that are now regarded as native as they have been established for centuries:

1. The Portuguese community in Malaysia first arrived in the 1400s

www.wired-destinations.com, http://malaysia-holidays-4u.com


2. ...As did the Chinese, who developed their own distinct Malay culture after converting to Islam - these are known separately from more recent 200 year old Chinese communities, and are called Peranakans


http://peranakan.hostoi.com/PhotoGallery.htm

www.wired-destinations.com, http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_aIM1IK53IeM

3. Whilst the recent Chinese are split between 8 major communities and languages:


www.iseemediaarts.com

http://my.88dbmedia1.jobsdb.com, http://yeinjee.com/asianpop



4. The Malays themselves are a lose fitting moniker of several ethnic groups such as the Melanesian, Mongoloid, and Austranesian groups - to be Malay one need only speak Malay, follow custom and be Muslim regardless of ancestry.


http://masatoronto.files.wordpress.com


www.tonyfernandesblog.com, www.terengganutourism.com


5. Then there are the numerous tribal aborigines of several ethnic groups, mostly Melanesian:


http://globalvoicesonline.org, www.google.com/hostednews/afp/media


6. although some of whom are Southern African in origin, and whose ancestors arrived in Asia thousands of years before spreading among SE Asian peoples. These are the Batek tribe:


http://images.travelpod.com/users/npointing, http://abagond.files.wordpress.com

7. and the subcontinental ethnicities - Sikhs, Tamils, Sinhalese, Bengalis, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis etc established from the 11th century onwards


http://cache3.asset-cache.net, www.wired-destinations.com/images/guides/malaysia

Indian wedding and Miss Malaysia

http://cdn.wn.com, http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_qf96FB-DKWI

8. Finally the Arabs, dating from the 14th century


www.freewebs.com, http://www.islamicboard.com/world-affairs/134278318-malaysian-arab-community.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/world-affairs/134278318-malaysian-arab-community.html

Last edited by muppet; May 19, 2010 at 8:51 PM.
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  #38  
Old Posted May 19, 2010, 8:06 PM
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^ are the bloody pictures really necessary? We all know what South and East Asians look like.
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  #39  
Old Posted May 19, 2010, 8:15 PM
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^Oh but you you forgot Middle Eastern Arabs, Negrito Africans, Melanesian Malays and Aborigines, and Black and Eurasian Portugeuse.

Last edited by muppet; May 19, 2010 at 8:52 PM.
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  #40  
Old Posted May 19, 2010, 8:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mwadswor View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_legion

Come on, are you being purposefully dense? No one said a bunch of Africans just showed up on Hadrian's wall because they heard there was work there. That's like saying a bunch of Americans just showed up in Okinawa because they heard the marines were hiring.


Wow. Lemme dumb this down for you. Forcing a bunch of Africans to join the army and shipping them up to some godforsaken place to build a wall does not an immigrant society make. Your analogy blows my mind. It just blows my mind.

The only group of people who didn't voluntarily show up in New York Harbor were the slaves. For everyone else, that is exactly what happened. They just showed up.
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