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  #961  
Old Posted May 13, 2010, 3:24 AM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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I have mixed feelings on this convention centre. If the cost is right then I hope that it will go ahead but if it doesn't then there are some other options such as the Cunard Centre.
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  #962  
Old Posted May 13, 2010, 4:41 AM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
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I see some good points from both Fenwick and Digitalninja.

I agree that the waterfront should really be more of a public space, or at least an active space all the time where commercial can occur and maybe some residential (like lofts) done above with a modified building.

However, fenwick also points out a good point that a large meeting space already exists.

Where I think Cunard Centre falls down is it's location, within the current context. The parking isn't really good and transit access is poor. Where as Nova Centre would have the benefit of all downtown parking, transit access and walking distance from hotels (although the westin would be an exception in favour of Cunard).

I see Cunard Centre is being a spot that probably won't get a lot of convention traffic - perhaps more of the party kind of event, like weddings or big get togethers. It might also be more appropriate a space for a big party, say after or during a conference, when the actual conference space is setup in a more meeting style setting?

As to previous comments about the heritage trust and save the view - where groups like these typically fall down; is in the articulation of their thoughts. They feel that have to throw so many reasons at council to oppose something that they don't setup their thoughts in a logical, coherant way and that's where their fight falls down. Most groups like that, especially out here in Calgary, typically get the glazed over looks from council and typically few if any question and don't get taken seriously.
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  #963  
Old Posted May 14, 2010, 11:51 AM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Yesterday on my way from the Philadelphia International Airport to the city convention center on the train, I saw this tower (Murano Tower) in Philadelphia and thought that the exterior looks similar to the Nova Centre rendering. This tower in Philadelphia actually looks very good and really stands out. I liked both the rounded shaped and the cladding. (this is not the Philadelphia Convention Center, it was just a tower that stood out in the skyline)

(source: http://www.mainlinemag.com/CMS/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/murano.jpg )




The Philadelphia Convention Center (not the tower above) is right downtown and like the Nova Centre proposal is built on two city blocks (but the blocks are about double the size of the Halifax city blocks). The exhibit hall is on the second level and is built over 12th Street. I noticed that the exhibit hall has several columns, however for a trade show it has no really detrimental effect on the exhibit booths. I took some pictures, but I just posted one from the internet instead.
(source: http://www.aapm.org/meetings/2010AM/images/Philadelphia-Convention-Center.jpg ) - I wasn't at the aapm convention - this photo from the internet just shows how the center is built over 12th Street. I was at a construction trade show (CSI - Construction Specifications Institute - not the Crime Scene Investigation on TV, which would likely be more interesting).

Last edited by fenwick16; May 14, 2010 at 3:08 PM.
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  #964  
Old Posted May 14, 2010, 4:32 PM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
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Good eye Fenwick - I think you are right on the design. I find that renderings really don't give projects justice somtimes depending on the type of printer and quality of the print.

Models help; but they too sometimes don't quite do it.
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  #965  
Old Posted May 14, 2010, 5:56 PM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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I think that the office tower of the Nova Centre will turn out to be very unique since it has rounded corners and is a slanted parallelogram in shape (i.e. it is not a typically box shaped office tower).

In my opinion the convention centre portion doesn't need to be elaborate; it just needs to be large enough to meet the needs of Halifax and be functionally suitable. So I really hope that it will be built economically and not go overboard on interior aesthetics. I have been to many convention centers in North America and I don't think that anyone pays much attention to the interior finishings. In my opinion, spending millions of dollars extra on expensive woodwork (for example) will be a waste of money. However, having it near the downtown core is important for visitors from out of the province. So my first choice, is for the Nova Centre to go ahead. The second choice would be for the Cunard Centre to be expanded.
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  #966  
Old Posted May 15, 2010, 2:18 PM
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Downtown Halifax complex: the road to a happier outcome


RALPH SURETTE

Let’s start the story from scratch.

We have a big empty space in the heart of the capital city, a desire on all sides to fill it with some­thing that will make the city proud, and the usual corrosive dispute between developers and critics about how to do it.

Let me argue that the dispute is not as bad as it seems, and that we could even be inching towards something vaguely resembling compromise.

This is based on two things.

First, the process is now right. By making the background studies public, the NDP government has largely removed itself from suspi cion and put itself in a position to be an honest broker for the con­vention centre project.

Second, there’s been some subtle movement in the argument: The enemy camps are, in princi ple, not as far apart as they seem, although they’re still bristling.

In releasing the background documents to the project, Infra structure Minister Bill Estabrooks said this: “We look forward to receiving the submission this summer and doing a thorough review to determine if this is the right project at an affordable price. It will be important to hear from the public on a project of this magnitude before a final decision is made."

If so, it’s music to my ears, and possibly an open door to a proper development.

As for the arguments, let me first quote something from Hey wood Sanders, the University of Texas professor of urban planning whose research revealing the weak economics of convention centres blew open the debate here. In one of our conversations, he asked, of Halifax or any other city having built or planning a big convention centre, “How can you presume to attract strangers to your downtown if you can’t at tract your own people?" Good question.

Now switch to the local scene.

The developer party seems to have stopped arguing that Halifax needs a big facility because it’s losing out on big conventions. The bleakness of that argument seems to have sunk in: Cities throughout North America are in a sort of arms race of convention centres as business gradually declines, with all of them losing money.

Instead, the argument has shift ed to the stimulus effect, in which the public gets its investment back through the increased business and tax revenue such centres bring to downtowns.

There’s little or no evidence that they do that either, but this is actually a more promising line of argument — as long as another proposition is accepted: that suc cess will depend at least as much, if not more, on local business as on outsiders.

This brings us back to Sanders’ point. If success depends to great degree on local business, a down town complex with Nova Scotians in mind first will be more success ful, more profitable and more in tune with the personality of the city.

The preliminary project that developer Rank Inc. has proposed is a clunker, a thing from the North American urban planning cookie cutter, impressive from a distance but hostile to the life of the city up close — and built on the presumption that the taxpayer will pay.

Here’s a suggestion as the pub lic’s input is sought: survey the suburbs for ideas as to what would draw them downtown, and survey the organizations that now use the Metro Centre for ideas.

The goal, if such is possible, should be development amenable to both Nova Scotian and nation al/ international business, and in tune with the life of the city. This is a proper challenge, it seems to me, for both architecture and urban planning.

And a challenge for public finances, let’s not forget. Regard ing the Rank Inc. proposal, we started talking about $100 million in public funds (in a public/pri vate partnership arrangement, another sticky point). Now the figure rattling around is $200 million and we haven’t started anything yet. If experience else where serves, we might be talking about $400 million. All of which underlines the point that this is of vital interest to the province as a whole and its finances, not just Halifax Regional Municipality.

And which reaffirms the point that the government — that is, the taxpayer — actually has the whip hand in deciding what goes ahead and what doesn’t, and all depends on how it uses it. Best of luck to you, Bill Estabrooks.

Ralph Surette is a veteran freelance journalist living in Yarmouth County.

([email protected])
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  #967  
Old Posted May 15, 2010, 3:34 PM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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When I started reading this article, it sounded like a reasonably unbiased article. But once he started stating that the costs are now at $200 million then it just reaffirms my belief that Halifax really does need a suitable convention centre. No detailed costs have been released; these inflated numbers are coming from people such as Ralph Surette. If these people want to be taken seriously, they should recommend a suitable alternative instead of deciding that a large convention centre isn't required.

In my opinion, Halifax needs a suitable tier 2 convention centre that is functional but just basic in design. I am not entirely convinced that Halifax needs to spend even $100 million for such a facility but I am convinced that Halifax does need a facility close to downtown which can host medium size conventions. This is a way to attract people to Halifax; in order to grow Halifax must promote itself as a business location.

PS: I wonder if people like Ralph Surette tells his anti-development friends when his columns will be released so that they can be the first to post comments in agreement. It always seems like the same people post comments as soon as these columns come out and this is what people usually see first - all the ones opposed.

Last edited by fenwick16; May 15, 2010 at 3:59 PM.
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  #968  
Old Posted May 15, 2010, 6:07 PM
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Keith P. Keith P. is offline
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Ralph Surrette is never unbiased. He is a NDPer from way back. I knew that article was a hatchet job the minute he invoked Saunders' name as some sort of expert. The same way, CBC Radio is not objective -- yesterday I caught a bit of their afternoon show and listener feedback on a piece they had done earlier in the week on the proposed center. Apparently that had some of their usual left-wing suspects on (I didn't catch it) and the feedback was more anti-development left-wing cheerleading. My favorite was a comment from someone who said "I go to lots of mining conventions in Halifax, and we never have a problem finding space". That person has no clue what is being discussed here. All too typical, sadly.
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  #969  
Old Posted May 15, 2010, 6:23 PM
worldlyhaligonian worldlyhaligonian is offline
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He's a fucking "freelance journalist"...

1) Apparently no real research was done here because the convention business is actually booming in some places (see Southeast Asia and the middle east)... Halifax would be an affordable place to hold them and I think that is where our competitive advantage lies

2) Once again... the whole development isn't the convention centre.

3) Canada is well positioned coming out of the recession to host more international conventions and conferences

4) Halifax is a big government/military/healthcare center... we attract conventions regardless.

5) The tax revenue would definitely be more than zero... so this is obviously positive for the economy. Spillovers for restaurants and retail would be even greater.

I'm working on a convention out west right now that will have 40,000 people attend and its in a city half the size of halifax and its not as beautiful or close to other major urban centres.


Hey, its cool if Nova Scotians want to fuck themselves... the feeling that I get out west is that they would do anything to have an opportunity like this and they don't squander the ones they are given.

Good luck shaking the lazy, stupid and non-progressive label maritimes.
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  #970  
Old Posted May 16, 2010, 12:51 AM
worldlyhaligonian worldlyhaligonian is offline
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Nova Centre site... I hope that there is truth to the discusion that there will be towers regardless of a convention centre.

I think that the groups against this aren't arguing against a convention centre... but just using that as an diversionary argument when really they don't want towers.

Lets hope there will be towers regardless... it would be a shame to waste this site on low rise. Look at how beautiful a site this is for some tall development.

Do you at least agree with that sdm? Or are you against towers (not the current design) on this site altogether?

Credit: Chris Campbell







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  #971  
Old Posted May 16, 2010, 2:44 AM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Personally, I am hoping that the Nova Centre will go ahead but I have become accustomed to preparing for the worst when it comes to Halifax area developments. It wasn't always that way - back in the 70's there seemed to be highrises go up everywhere in the Halifax area. Then the anti-development people started to get their way ....

I just hope that the convention centre portion of the Nova Centre will be economically priced so that people will accept it.
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  #972  
Old Posted May 16, 2010, 3:27 AM
isaidso isaidso is offline
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Holy crap. Where did the Mail-Star go?
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  #973  
Old Posted May 16, 2010, 3:53 AM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Most people refer to it as the Chronicle Herald building. It has been gone for about 1 month now; the mice and rats have deserted it and have now spread throughout the surrounding neighbourhoods.

Seeing how large these two blocks are, I think it will be an ideal location for a new convention centre. Hopefully it will be developed before anti-development groups start petitioning to have it turned into a park.
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  #974  
Old Posted May 16, 2010, 11:54 AM
terrynorthend terrynorthend is offline
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
Holy crap. Where did the Mail-Star go?
OMG! I haven't heard that name in years! I used to deliver the Mail-Star after school when I was a kid.
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  #975  
Old Posted May 16, 2010, 12:30 PM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Originally Posted by terrynorthend View Post
OMG! I haven't heard that name in years! I used to deliver the Mail-Star after school when I was a kid.
So did I. That's how I recognized the name. I delivered it back in the early 70's for 2 years (I remember the 1972 Hockey Summit was played during that time - that is a famous Canada/Russia hockey series for those who were not born back then).

Looking at the photos, Argyle is a nice looking street. The new Nova Centre will be a much better fit than the Chronicle Herald building. The opponents of the Nova Centre should send a civic award to Rank Corp instead of opposing this development. I will give them top marks if they can make this project a reality.
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  #976  
Old Posted May 16, 2010, 12:40 PM
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Keith P. Keith P. is offline
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Not only is the Chronicle-Herald building gone, but the old-school paper that used to be published there has also gone. Under the editorial helm of ex-CBCer Dan Leger, he has brought in cronies from his old left-wing 4th Estate days like Ralph Surrette and added other left-wingers like the hopelessly bad Rachel Brighton. He is trying to turn it into the east coast version of the Toronto Star it seems.
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  #977  
Old Posted May 16, 2010, 3:54 PM
worldlyhaligonian worldlyhaligonian is offline
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What is the building behind Maxwell's... man that thing is ugly.
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  #978  
Old Posted May 16, 2010, 8:13 PM
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haligonia haligonia is offline
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I believe it is some sort of storage/warehouse facility. I don't know how someone was allowed to build what is essentially a giant, blank, lowrise wall.
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  #979  
Old Posted May 16, 2010, 10:54 PM
sdm sdm is offline
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Originally Posted by haligonia View Post
I believe it is some sort of storage/warehouse facility. I don't know how someone was allowed to build what is essentially a giant, blank, lowrise wall.
its a data and cheque processing centre for a number of banks.
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  #980  
Old Posted May 16, 2010, 11:14 PM
phrenic phrenic is offline
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I realize this was announced a week or more ago, but TCL hired the same woman to do PR for the Convention Centre as for the Canada Games. Really? They couldn't have found anyone who didn't still have the stench of secrecy, failure and bloated costs hanging above them?

Again, really? I feel like this should be the topic of the "Really? with Seth and Amy" SNL sketch.

This is what's making me nervous about this project, similar to the Commonwealth Games - the apparent lack of any formal communications strategy that puts the emphasis on benefits to the city and to the Province. I agree that this project would benefit Halifax and Nova Scotia as a whole if completed as envisioned but I've come to the point where I don't entirely blame the detractors for their skepticism.

The vast majority of the public - including me and many of you- has no idea what the convention centre business is really like in North America so their only source of information on the benefits of the project comes from its proponents. Given the checkered history of people at TCL and the state of the provinces finances, people feel like they need to see a rock-solid business case before they can feel comfortable with that much public money going toward this. It may very well be rock-solid, but it's being presented as "If you built it, they will come" with no way to guarantee any return. Yes, the reports talk about 60+ conventions that we missed because of our current facility, but there is still no way to determine how many of those would have actually come here if the size was available.

For many people, it all comes down to the fact that the same people responsible for the commonwealth games fiasco now want to spend $100+ million of taxpayer money on something where there is no guarantee - however likely it actually is - that the money will be made back. Most people simply don't realize the spin-off benefits that will occur and just aren't that trusting of bureaucrats. TCL really needs to hire a formal PR firm like MT&L to figure out how to educate people on the tax revenues and other ways that the public money will be made back.
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