Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[CLC]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

Has anyone else noticed that any photos of tram /lrt /streetcar systems seem to have no nearby cars and trucks? I have yet to see a photo or a video of a street as wide and clogged with traffic like Broadway at rush hour that also has a streetcar running on it.

Absolutely agree. I actually left an anonymous comment in one of his earlier blog post giving him a "kind warning" that his selected photos are not persuasive as they all have no street life and seems to carry very few customers (low popularity).

[lezard]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

Has anyone else noticed that any photos of tram /lrt /streetcar systems seem to have no nearby cars and trucks? I have yet to see a photo or a video of a street as wide and clogged with traffic like Broadway at rush hour that also has a streetcar running on it.

Your comment is spot on. Europe long ago learnt to keep streetcars away from city centres where they might endanger licit road users such as motor vehicles and trucks. There is a movement afoot to create conservation areas in remote mountain ranges where streetcars could roam wild in their natural habitat. Some advocate that pedestrians should also be concentrated in these parks so as to protect motor vehicles from these other dangerous predators.

Here is the first tram being released in the wild. See how happy it looks? (Cue music from "Born Free")

http://www.nhgc.asn.au/node/160

Many European cities have introduced traffic reduction measures and are in the process of banning through traffic from city centers. But there are still many major arteries where streetcars and vehicles share the roadbed. But mostly, European Cities are moving to ban automobiles entirely from the city centers wherever possible. Streetcars reduce the need for entering the city centre to begin with and allow commuters to partially or even completely give up commuting by car.

If streetcar were chosen for Broadway, it would have to be accompanied by secondary measures aimed at further reducing individual vehicular traffic along the corridor. The introduction of an efficient mode of transportation from one end of the corridor to the other would already be one such measure. Other measures could include the provision of Park & Ride stations at either end to encourage commuters to change to public transit.

One last thing, just because google doesn't have it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[BCPhil]

It's not that just Broadway is a busy road, the real problem is that Broadway crosses every other major road in the city. Between Commercial and UBC an LRT would have to deal with no less than a dozen MAJOR crossings. I just don't see how an LRT can contend with these crossings. Signal privatization might work well on Boulevards in Europe where there is room for crowds to gather near the ROW and large distances between intersections, but prioritizing signals at a place like Granville & Broadway would be near impossible. A pedestrian has to have time to cross 7 lanes worth of traffic, as there would be no room for people to stop half way and if the light spontaneously changes for a tram. Could you see it where a group of 50 people are crossing the street and suddenly the light changes and everyone has to freeze or else they are hit by a tram?

Between Commercial and Arbutus, an LRT would have to contend with traffic crossing the ROW at Commercial, Clark, Glen, Fraser, Kingsway, Main, Quebec, Manitoba, Yukon, Cambie, Ash, Heather, Willow, Laurel, Oak, Hemlock, Granville, Fir, Burrard, Arbutus. These intersections can not be closed into right in/out only. Traffic desperately needs to cross (at least left turns) at all those. I just don't see how an LRT with high speeds and high frequencies can work. There is no way signal prioritization can 100% solve this problem. There will still be times when a tram will have to stop at a signal because it's travelling to slow or stay at a station too long. Time needs to be given for cars and pedestrians to clear the tracks under signal prioritization, and if the trains have a low headway in both directions, I don't see how that will be always possible.

I can see why Translink put in 2 tram lines in one of the options. If going to UBC from already being on the Expo Line, it would be much faster to transfer at Main street and take the LRT on the segregated ROW along False Creek and through South Granville than transfer at Commercial and ride down Broadway. Going that way would cut out most of the major intersections from the trip, leaving only Burrard and adding 4th.

[vangirl3]

Okay, enough already. Are we still arguing about the best mode of transport on the second-busiest arterial in Vancouver? 174 pages in this thread? Talk about flogging a dead horse...

I'm sure I'm going to be despised, but for clarity's sake, can we just define/clarify/agree on the following points:

-Broadway is the second busiest commercial corridor in Vancouver
-UBC has 30-40k people commuting to/from daily
-as the second busiest arterial, traffic on Broadway is not just SOV commuters but also a substantial amount of commercial traffic
-the vast majority of commuters want to take the quickest and most convenient mode of transportation
-dedicated car-drivers will only switch to public transport if that transport can get them to their destination more quickly than driving
-where warranted, building upon a homogenous transit infrastructure is more cost-effective in the long term than creating various layers of infrastructure (ie more cost-effective to build onto the existing skytrain/trolley bus network than create a new LRT or tram infrastructure) that will require yet another stream of operations and maintenance

If you, me and the rest of the rational world agree to the above premises, doesn't it follow that the only sane choice is SKYTRAIN????? If the money isn't there to fully fund SKYTRAIN to UBC, isn't the most sane option SKYTRAIN as far as we can afford and BLINE the rest of the way? Sorry, I don't get all these sidebars about tram and lrt. Our trolley buses are far more flexible (though not as hot as) a Euro-styled tram will ever be, and our skytrain is far more effective in creating ridership and giving us the frequencies and speed than would be possible with any kind of LRT.

Surely, if you agree with my premises, it's time to quit flogging the dead horse....

[lezard]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

It's not that just Broadway is a busy road, the real problem is that Broadway crosses every other major road in the city. Between Commercial and UBC an LRT would have to deal with no less than a dozen MAJOR crossings. I just don't see how an LRT can contend with these crossings. Signal privatization might work well on Boulevards in Europe where there is room for crowds to gather near the ROW and large distances between intersections, but prioritizing signals at a place like Granville & Broadway would be near impossible. A pedestrian has to have time to cross 7 lanes worth of traffic, as there would be no room for people to stop half way and if the light spontaneously changes for a tram. Could you see it where a group of 50 people are crossing the street and suddenly the light changes and everyone has to freeze or else they are hit by a tram?

Between Commercial and Arbutus, an LRT would have to contend with traffic crossing the ROW at Commercial, Clark, Glen, Fraser, Kingsway, Main, Quebec, Manitoba, Yukon, Cambie, Ash, Heather, Willow, Laurel, Oak, Hemlock, Granville, Fir, Burrard, Arbutus. These intersections can not be closed into right in/out only. Traffic desperately needs to cross (at least left turns) at all those. I just don't see how an LRT with high speeds and high frequencies can work. There is no way signal prioritization can 100% solve this problem. There will still be times when a tram will have to stop at a signal because it's travelling to slow or stay at a station too long. Time needs to be given for cars and pedestrians to clear the tracks under signal prioritization, and if the trains have a low headway in both directions, I don't see how that will be always possible.

I can see why Translink put in 2 tram lines in one of the options. If going to UBC from already being on the Expo Line, it would be much faster to transfer at Main street and take the LRT on the segregated ROW along False Creek and through South Granville than transfer at Commercial and ride down Broadway. Going that way would cut out most of the major intersections from the trip, leaving only Burrard and adding 4th.

I can't help but think that you exaggerate somewhat the problems that streetcar would face on Broadway. First, you have to stop thinking that LRT on Broadway would be running at the speeds that Skytrain can reach. If the line is going to run at street level, even if it has a dedicated corridor, it won't be able to run much faster than actual traffic.

The great advantage of driver operated streetcar is that the driver would recognize the presence of a pedestrian on the road ahead of him and choose not to run him over. The lights at those major crossings already run long enough for most people to cross. Whether it is a streetcar waiting to transit Granville or the 99 bus changes nothing to the timing.

Just because the light turns green doesn't mean you have to go, although that seems to be the general opinion over here.

Left turns can be timed so that those vehicles would turn left after a tram has transited the crossroad. The question of dealing with smaller crossings could be solved but would not be as ideal as simply banning left hand turns there.

Boulevards in Europe are not much different than our major arteries. Some are admittedly much larger, but most streets that streetcars run on are of similar size.

The reason that Streetcar or street level LRT does not fill the need for Rapid Transit to UBC is because neither of them are true rapid transit. There is really no great obstacle to running either of these on Broadway, technically the solutions all exist and have been applied elsewhere over and over again.

But if the goal is to move the most people at the greatest speed across the length of the corridor, than those modes will not achieve these goals as well as Skytrain or any other grade separated LRT for that matter..

They will make a major difference to transit patterns along the corridor but those most affected will likely be short distance commuters who do not put speed as highest priority.

[lezard]

Originally Posted by vangirl3

Okay, enough already. Are we still arguing about the best mode of transport on the second-busiest arterial in Vancouver? 174 pages in this thread? Talk about flogging a dead horse...

I'm sure I'm going to be despised, but for clarity's sake, can we just define/clarify/agree on the following points:

-Broadway is the second busiest commercial corridor in Vancouver
-UBC has 30-40k people commuting to/from daily
-as the second busiest arterial, traffic on Broadway is not just SOV commuters but also a substantial amount of commercial traffic
-the vast majority of commuters want to take the quickest and most convenient mode of transportation
-dedicated car-drivers will only switch to public transport if that transport can get them to their destination more quickly than driving
-where warranted, building upon a homogenous transit infrastructure is more cost-effective in the long term than creating various layers of infrastructure (ie more cost-effective to build onto the existing skytrain/trolley bus network than create a new LRT or tram infrastructure) that will require yet another stream of operations and maintenance

If you, me and the rest of the rational world agree to the above premises, doesn't it follow that the only sane choice is SKYTRAIN????? If the money isn't there to fully fund SKYTRAIN to UBC, isn't the most sane option SKYTRAIN as far as we can afford and BLINE the rest of the way? Sorry, I don't get all these sidebars about tram and lrt. Our trolley buses are far more flexible (though not as hot as) a Euro-styled tram will ever be, and our skytrain is far more effective in creating ridership and giving us the frequencies and speed than would be possible with any kind of LRT.

Surely, if you agree with my premises, it's time to quit flogging the dead horse....

Agree with nearly everything. You've also hit the nail square on the head. It will all boil down to money. Will there be enough to extend Expo Line even as far as Cambie? Today? Doubtful.

As far as trolleys being more flexible than streetcar, that only applies to the needs of the operators, not the passengers. On the other hand trolley only carries less than half of the capacity of modern streetcar combinations and have shorter operating life.

Streetcar is much more attractive to the undecided than trolley will ever be. It may be a question more of perception than reality but it is something that pops up in every study as to transportation mode I've come across.

If we had the money, I'd not hesitate to say yes to a Rapid Transit Line, such as Skytrain, to UBC. Failing that, I believe Streetcar is a valid compromise and certainly an upgrade from trolley.

[vangirl3]

Originally Posted by lezard

The great advantage of driver operated streetcar is that the driver would recognize the presence of a pedestrian on the road ahead of him and choose not to run him over. The lights at those major crossings already run long enough for most people to cross. Whether it is a streetcar waiting to transit Granville or the 99 bus changes nothing to the timing..

Sorry, but it just blows my mind that we're discussing this for BROADWAY! We don't need drivers to recognize pedestrians, we need a grade separated, subterranean route on the second-busiest artertial in the City. Why are we even discussing intersections, pedestrians, ROW'S, OMC yards etc.

[vangirl3]

Originally Posted by lezard

As far as trolleys being more flexible than streetcar, that only applies to the needs of the operators, not the passengers. On the other hand trolley only carries less than half of the capacity of modern streetcar combinations and have shorter operating life.

Streetcar is much more attractive to the undecided than trolley will ever be. It may be a question more of perception than reality but it is something that pops up in every study as to transportation mode I've come across.

Lezard, pardon my naivitee but do we not currently have a a very posh and modern trolley bus infrastructure in place? It may not be quite as cute (or au courant) as streetcar, but it's not too far off in terms of efficiency -- some would argue it's even more efficient. So, I would say, it would be fiscally irresponsible for us to abandon trolleybuses as a second-tier mode of transport in favour of streetcar/tram -- at least at this point in time. What do you think?

[lezard]

Originally Posted by vangirl3

Sorry, but it just blows my mind that we're discussing this for BROADWAY! We don't need drivers to recognize pedestrians, we need a grade separated, subterranean route on the second-busiest artertial in the City. Why are we even discussing intersections, pedestrians, ROW'S, OMC yards etc.

Because we don't have the cash for a Ferrari. It's as simple as that. So we will probably either have to settle for a Volkswagen or continue to drive our trusty old Ford LTD.

It blows my mind that some people don't realize it doesn't grow on trees.

I was going to write Toyota, but that would have been an unfortunate simile.

[BCPhil]

If I stop flogging this dead horse that means I'll have to do something else, like some actual work.

So more flogging!

I agree with everything you said completely. And I don't even think it's a question of money.

Construction would probably take longer than any other project so far, so the money spent, while a higher total, would be spread over more years. So we are probably looking at an annual spending on par or even bellow what we spent on Canada Line (as it was constructed rather fast for the Olympics). It's more a question of motivation, and perceived public opinion.

The problem is that we are dealing with some very loud, vocal people. Many of them seem to believe that LRT is some magic bullet that is a huge success everywhere it goes while spending almost no money. This is more than just a rational choice, it's a political choice. It's something that could get a party voted into our out of office.

$3 billion (or more) is a lot of money to spend, so there will be a lot of hesitations to spend it. It's taken 20 years to get upgrades done to the TCH, and the Broadway Corridor has had a plan ready to go for the last 10+ years. But it's hard for them to know if the public will agree with what they want to do or storm the castle with pitchforks in hand.

The more people talk about it, and the larger number of people interested, the more political presure it puts on the higher ups to make things happen. If it looks like a large protion of the population agree that Skytrain is desperately needed along Broadway, more than any other Corridor in pre-planning, the the more likely it will be that things will happen.

These "consultations" aren't really that. The only way LRT would happen is if they feel it's their only choice, IE: if the public is so incredibly anti-subway. Just think, for every Zweis, there are 1000 people who are even less informed but feel very vocal. The consultations are just to gage the public reaction.

But I think it's working. I hear more and more people talking about the need for Skytrain on Broadway. It's in the papers, and all over the internet. Even the comment sections on certain websites are swaying to pro-Skytrain where during Cut And Cover days comments and feedback was almost exclusively pro LRT for anything. The more public opinion sways in favor of needing Skytrain (over sort of wanting it maybe one day) the more likely it will happen by 2020.

During Canada Line construction it felt like it was the death of Rapid Transit on Broadway. There was no money and public support for Translink was at an all time low because of the cut and cover. The success of the Canada Line has rebounded public opinion, and instead of being a maybe, it's gone to a probably by 2040, to, I think, a most likely by 2020.

Because of the shift in public opinion (especially after how amazing it did during the Olympics) I can see this being fast tracked after construction starts on Evergreen. As soon as the province is back in the black, this will be the next mega project they announce to be funded by the surplus. And I think it's because many people are letting the governments know it's what they want.

[lezard]

Originally Posted by vangirl3

Lezard, pardon my naivitee but do we not currently have a a very posh and modern trolley bus infrastructure in place? It may not be quite as cute (or au courant) as streetcar, but it's not too far off in terms of efficiency -- some would argue it's even more efficient. So, I would say, it would be fiscally irresponsible for us to abandon trolleybuses as a second-tier mode of transport in favour of streetcar/tram -- at least at this point in time. What do you think?

Its certainly not posh although it is modern. If you propose that it is only because of a "je ne sais quoi d'esthétique" that I prefer streetcar to trolley, than you are perhaps being disengenious?

In any comparison streetcar beats trolley hands down. Greater capacity, greater comfort, greater savings over the lifespan of the system. Given the choice between taking streetcar and trolley, I'll take streetcar.

If you seriously want to get people out of their cars, I personally doubt that the 99 will do much more than it already has.

That being said, if you were to find some way to finance, over the long term, a transit system for Metro Vancouver that included an underground RRT to UBC underneath Broadway, you'd have my vote.

[lezard]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

If I stop flogging this dead horse that means I'll have to do something else, like some actual work.

So more flogging!

I agree with everything you said completely. And I don't even think it's a question of money.

Construction would probably take longer than any other project so far, so the money spent, while a higher total, would be spread over more years. So we are probably looking at an annual spending on par or even bellow what we spent on Canada Line (as it was constructed rather fast for the Olympics). It's more a question of motivation, and perceived public opinion.

The problem is that we are dealing with some very loud, vocal people. Many of them seem to believe that LRT is some magic bullet that is a huge success everywhere it goes while spending almost no money. This is more than just a rational choice, it's a political choice. It's something that could get a party voted into our out of office.

$3 billion (or more) is a lot of money to spend, so there will be a lot of hesitations to spend it. It's taken 20 years to get upgrades done to the TCH, and the Broadway Corridor has had a plan ready to go for the last 10+ years. But it's hard for them to know if the public will agree with what they want to do or storm the castle with pitchforks in hand.

The more people talk about it, and the larger number of people interested, the more political presure it puts on the higher ups to make things happen. If it looks like a large protion of the population agree that Skytrain is desperately needed along Broadway, more than any other Corridor in pre-planning, the the more likely it will be that things will happen.

These "consultations" aren't really that. The only way LRT would happen is if they feel it's their only choice, IE: if the public is so incredibly anti-subway. Just think, for every Zweis, there are 1000 people who are even less informed but feel very vocal. The consultations are just to gage the public reaction.

But I think it's working. I hear more and more people talking about the need for Skytrain on Broadway. It's in the papers, and all over the internet. Even the comment sections on certain websites are swaying to pro-Skytrain where during Cut And Cover days comments and feedback was almost exclusively pro LRT for anything. The more public opinion sways in favor of needing Skytrain (over sort of wanting it maybe one day) the more likely it will happen by 2020.

During Canada Line construction it felt like it was the death of Rapid Transit on Broadway. There was no money and public support for Translink was at an all time low because of the cut and cover. The success of the Canada Line has rebounded public opinion, and instead of being a maybe, it's gone to a probably by 2040, to, I think, a most likely by 2020.

Because of the shift in public opinion (especially after how amazing it did during the Olympics) I can see this being fast tracked after construction starts on Evergreen. As soon as the province is back in the black, this will be the next mega project they announce to be funded by the surplus. And I think it's because many people are letting the governments know it's what they want.

Just because some numbnuts out there got it into his head that LRT is the nth coming of the saviour doesn't mean that LRT is instead one of the horsemen of the apocalypse. So flog that knacker all you want.

Streetcar and LRT are well adapted to getting those people to take public transit that still prefer their cars. The proximity with the street level commercial makes it highly attractive to new transit users, especially those who can still afford the choice.

The smooth ride and general surfeit of seating is quite a change from the perception that busses are overcrowded, smelly and jerk you back and forth at every acceleration.

I'll continue to beat at the silly notion that Broadway somehow is the worst possible place for a streetcar or an LRT. It isn't. Nor is Broadway somehow different from streets elsewhere on the planet.

Try London or Paris for congestion, and I'm sure many here can testify to worse traffic situations in cities in Asia or Africa.

[vangirl3]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

Construction would probably take longer than any other project so far, so the money spent, while a higher total, would be spread over more years. So we are probably looking at an annual spending on par or even bellow what we spent on Canada Line (as it was constructed rather fast for the Olympics). It's more a question of motivation, and perceived public opinion.

Personally, I think the motivation and perceived public opinion is there.

Originally Posted by BCPhil

The problem is that we are dealing with some very loud, vocal people. Many of them seem to believe that LRT is some magic bullet that is a huge success everywhere it goes while spending almost no money. This is more than just a rational choice, it's a political choice. It's something that could get a party voted into our out of office.

Okay, I don't get this. WHO ARE THE LOUD AND VOCAL PEOPLE? There's a couple of groups that would be affected by RRT or LRT to UBC. First off, NIMBY residents. Now, I would argue, that if i was a well-heeled lady living in Point Grey I would much prefer the proletariat take a subterranean route UNDER my neighborhood (out of sight, out of mind) than impede my daily commute to the nail salon by clogging up west Broadway with an LRT train or tram. Certainly, my CEO husband would be more than happy to have an underground route get rid of the annoying riffraff that stream off the Bline. In that case, then, a win-win situation for NIMBY's and proponents of skytrain.

Now, the other vocal group -- LRT enthusiasts -- what say do they have? Mel Lehan...the mayor of Kits? Look again at the points in my premise. Is he addressing them? Is that nutbar in the Valley addressing those points? Maybe my points are off-base... I don't know...but I think that until we agree what it is we have to collectively address, we're not going to reach consensus.

Originally Posted by BCPhil

$3 billion (or more) is a lot of money to spend, so there will be a lot of hesitations to spend it. It's taken 20 years to get upgrades done to the TCH, and the Broadway Corridor has had a plan ready to go for the last 10+ years. But it's hard for them to know if the public will agree with what they want to do or storm the castle with pitchforks in hand.

As far as the money is concerned... We know there's a SOME money. I mean, they keep doing these stupid studies about where the money should go -- so obviously there's a bit of it around. Let's take that money in increments and build westward from Commercial towards UBC. Hopefully, we'll be able to close the gap with the Canada Line and get to Cambie in the next couple of years.

[lezard]

Originally Posted by vangirl3

As far as the money is concerned... We know there's a SOME money. I mean, they keep doing these stupid studies about where the money should go -- so obviously there's a bit of it around. Let's take that money in increments and build westward from Commercial towards UBC. Hopefully, we'll be able to close the gap with the Canada Line and get to Cambie in the next couple of years.

That's very optimistic, probably overly so. I understood that any UBC line wouldn't see the light of day until 2020 at the earliest.

[vangirl3]

Originally Posted by lezard

In any comparison streetcar beats trolley hands down. Greater capacity, greater comfort, greater savings over the lifespan of the system. Given the choice between taking streetcar and trolley, I'll take streetcar.

Lezard, my point is that we currently don't have streetcars in our infrastructure... why add them when we need to deal with RRT FIRST? When our trolleys are in need of a nip and tuck or full-face overhaul, that would be the time to change over to streetcar as a second-tier mode of transport.

Originally Posted by lezard

If you seriously want to get people out of their cars, I personally doubt that the 99 will do much more than it already has.

Sorry, I obviously wasn't clear there. I think only skytrain or its speed equivalent will get motorists out of their cars -- I was advocating trolley bus as a secondary mode of transport only.

Originally Posted by lezard

That being said, if you were to find some way to finance, over the long term, a transit system for Metro Vancouver that included an underground RRT to UBC underneath Broadway, you'd have my vote.

Hmm.. I could think of a few things. I am not quite as pessimistic as you regarding my perception of how much money Translink has. They must have something as they've set up these Broadway studies for a number of years now. Until it can be fully funded, I would advocate skytrain in stages to UBC.

[vangirl3]

Originally Posted by lezard

That's very optimistic, probably overly so. I understood that any UBC line wouldn't see the light of day until 2020 at the earliest.

Right, we wouldn't see it until 2020. That means construction would start in 2016. That's 6 years from now.... really, not as distant as it seems.

[lezard]

Originally Posted by vangirl3

Right, we wouldn't see it until 2020. That means construction would start in 2016. That's 6 years from now.... really, not as distant as it seems.

Ok, I just thought it was more than the couple of years in your post.

As far as the addition of streetcar to the network, I'm a bit more optimistic concerning the Downtown Streetcar project. If that were to come to be, which I really would like to see., than streetcar would be an element of the transit mix in the city.

I think that once the UBC line is built we will se a long period where the focus will be on upgrading secondary transit lines (as opposed to main line Skytrain). Downtown Streetcar, Arbutus line, North Vancouver LRT and so forth. This is where I see streetcar as an ideal solution as a feeder for the main line skytrain.

So I see it as inevitable that we will see LRT in Vancouver eventually.

[WarrenC12]

I don't think anybody is arguing that LRT will have a place in Metro Vancouver Transit.

The funny thing about the Commercial-UBC line is that it is more deserving of a Skytrain line than the lines we currently have(!)

[vangirl3]

Originally Posted by lezard

As far as the addition of streetcar to the network, I'm a bit more optimistic concerning the Downtown Streetcar project. If that were to come to be, which I really would like to see., than streetcar would be an element of the transit mix in the city.

I would love to see the downtown streetcar system come into effect. I'm not betting on it as it's sort of outside the jurisdiction of Translink and seems a bit pie-in-the-sky (whatever happened to Gregor's flatulent goats powering City Hall?). Also, I don't think downtown streetcar is nearly as crucial as a RRT down Broadway.

Originally Posted by lezard

I think that once the UBC line is built we will se a long period where the focus will be on upgrading secondary transit lines (as opposed to main line Skytrain). Downtown Streetcar, Arbutus line, North Vancouver LRT and so forth. This is where I see streetcar as an ideal solution as a feeder for the main line skytrain.
So I see it as inevitable that we will see LRT in Vancouver eventually.

I sort of agree with you here.

[lezard]

Originally Posted by vangirl3

I would love to see the downtown streetcar system come into effect. I'm not betting on it as it's sort of outside the jurisdiction of Translink and seems a bit pie-in-the-sky (whatever happened to Gregor's flatulent goats powering City Hall?). Also, I don't think downtown streetcar is nearly as crucial as a RRT down Broadway.


I sort of agree with you here.

Apart from the celestial bakery reference, I agree with everything said by vangirl3 and WarrenC12. Now that it is on record, I'm hoping some will stop thinking I'm zwei.

I just happen to like anything running on rails, barring tarred and feathered strangers leaving town.