[Halifax] Nova Centre | 65-58-58 m | 16-15-14 fl | Completed

[fenwick16]

Source ( http://thechronicleherald.ca/Business/1180196.html )

The government wants Rank to own, design, build, finance and maintain the convention centre, which some people estimate would have a price tag in the range of $100 million to $120 million. The province hopes the funding would be split evenly among the federal, provincial and municipal governments, which would finance the convention centre through a lease arrangement with Rank over a number of years.

If this is a lease arrangement then there might not be a lot of up-front capital required from the three levels of government. I wonder if it will be difficult for Rank Corp to arrange financing. Is there a precedent for the federal government to pay an annual percentage of such an arrangement?

[Keith P.]

Amazing to read the comments in Saturday's Herald article. The negativity is astounding. These are typical Nova Scotians who know nothing of the economy or the convention biz, but it is still disappointing to see the deeply-rooted negative attitudes towards growing the economy and making downtown more vibrant.

One wonders how many of those commenting actually ever set foot in the existing WTCC or have ever been to a modern convention center. BTW, sources tell me that the 6th floor of the existing WTCC center has been overrun with mice the last couple of weeks. If they are on 6, they are everywhere in that building. Maybe they should have a cat convention.

[fenwick16]

I did a quick search of the internet to see if other convention centres are getting funding from the federal government. I found information on three:

Ottawa Convention Centre Funding – Up to $50 million federal funding - http://www.feddevontario.gc.ca/eic/site/723.nsf/eng/h_00106.html

Niagara Convention Centre – Up to $35 million dollars federal funding - http://mediacentre.canada.travel/content...on-amp-civic-centre-niagara-falls-canada

Vancouver Convention Centre Expansion – Up to $225 million dollars federal funding – http://www.wd.gc.ca/eng/77_2698.asp

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Amazing to read the comments in Saturday's Herald article. The negativity is astounding. These are typical Nova Scotians who know nothing of the economy or the convention biz, but it is still disappointing to see the deeply-rooted negative attitudes towards growing the economy and making downtown more vibrant.

One wonders how many of those commenting actually ever set foot in the existing WTCC or have ever been to a modern convention center. BTW, sources tell me that the 6th floor of the existing WTCC center has been overrun with mice the last couple of weeks. If they are on 6, they are everywhere in that building. Maybe they should have a cat convention.

I think that as soon as opponents hear of a positive article, they come out in full force. I hope that the convention centre can be built for $100 million dollars (with partial federal funding). The design looks quite unique to me so I hope that it can be done for that price. It would certainly be a building that Haligonians can be proud of.

It sounds like the mice have deserted the Herald building and are now spreading throughout downtown Halifax.

[worldlyhaligonian]

I think the future of downtown hinges on this development going forward.

People that are against this just don't know what they are talking about. There are no other options!

[sdm]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

I think the future of downtown hinges on this development going forward.

People that are against this just don't know what they are talking about. There are no other options!

I wouldn't put faith in just this development saving downtown.

There are a number just waiting to go that will have just same amount of impact as this development. Problem is they are waiting for the local market to improve and the financing arrangements to be less strict. Till that happens they will be slow to go.

[planarchy]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

I think the future of downtown hinges on this development going forward.

People that are against this just don't know what they are talking about. There are no other options!

I completely disagree.

The future of downtown may hinge on the all these vacant lots being developed soon - but the ultimate success and economic viability of present and future service-base or retail businesses in the core has little to do with a convention centre. It has more to do with filling these vacant lots with high-density housing and a complete renovation of our public transit system.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by planarchy

I completely disagree.

The future of downtown may hinge on the all these vacant lots being developed soon - but the ultimate success and economic viability of present and future service-base or retail businesses in the core has little to do with a convention centre. It has more to do with filling these vacant lots with high-density housing and a complete renovation of our public transit system.

I partly agree with you. High density housing and public transit are important. I just don't see why it is one or the other (these two items that you mention or the convention centre). The convention centre will also bring people to the downtown area. Eventually if Halifax is going to become a location that people will want to live in, it will have to have some modern amenities. The current Convention Centre is an embarrassment to the Halifax area.

I get very frustrated with the opponents of the convention centre. Luckily Halifax already has the Metro Centre, cruise ship terminal, two bridges across the harbour, and Citadel Hill - since I am sure that the same people would be arguing against these venues if they weren't already there.

Having said this; I think that the new convention centre is only worthwhile at the right price. If the price starts to increase significantly upwards then at some point it will no longer be worth the price. At $100 million with federal funding then I think it is worthwhile.

[someone123]

The downtown needs all it can get basically. Residents are key but convention centre business would also be important, and retail is not all there is to the downtown core. Partly it is also an economic engine for the entire region - if it does not have the right amenities then business will pass the city by (and, by extension, all of Atlantic Canada in many cases, since nowhere else is suitable). There won't be a market for lots of high density residential downtown or public money for an improved public transit system if the economy isn't strong.

I think the most fundamental problem downtown isn't the lack of residential, it's the fact that everything is painfully slow to change and develop. Old infrastructure is decaying and becoming obsolete and it is not being replaced in a timely manner. Unless things speed up considerably we will continue to see the downtown fall apart. One or two little buildings and street paving projects every 5 years is not enough.

Looking at places like Toronto and Vancouver I am always disappointed with how slowly things move in Halifax. In Vancouver things actually get built, even though financially this city is in no better shape. Infrastructure and development projects planned 5 years ago are a reality today. In Halifax there are the same old empty lots and spineless politicians and everything is slowly wasting away, failing to meet its potential while people who apparently have never seen a functional city delude themselves into thinking everything is fine.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by planarchy

I completely disagree.

The future of downtown may hinge on the all these vacant lots being developed soon - but the ultimate success and economic viability of present and future service-base or retail businesses in the core has little to do with a convention centre. It has more to do with filling these vacant lots with high-density housing and a complete renovation of our public transit system.

i agree with those points... but there are no proposals for a real public transportation network and i believe the other proposals would benefit from the economic spillovers.

aside from the design and the site, why are you so against this??? seriously, tell me the real reason??? please, if it is some other reason, let me know the truth.

also answer this:
if this project doesn't happen, how long will this lot sit vacant?


i had to move out west because there are hardly any international trade jobs in halifax, and if you think conventions have nothing to do with trade... then you don't know what you are talking about because planning them is a significant part of my work.

[sdm]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

also answer this:
if this project doesn't happen, how long will this lot sit vacant?

I know that there were plans for the site (seen renderings)for residential, retai, and commercial office prior to the RFP launch for the new trade centre. I could only assume that these would be brought back to the table. With HRM by design the turn around for planning approval is to be 60 days after submission.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by sdm

I know that there were plans for the site (seen renderings)for residential, retai, and commercial office prior to the RFP launch for the new trade centre. I could only assume that these would be brought back to the table. With HRM by design the turn around for planning approval is to be 60 days after submission.

Is there any rules regarding time that needs to go by before a new application can be submitted? I know in most cities in Alberta, there is a 'cooling down clause' that usually prevents any new applications on a site (regardless the proposal) for 60 days.

If there is such a clause in this case, then it may end up they'd have to wait 2 months and then submit a new one...

[planarchy]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

i agree with those points... but there are no proposals for a real public transportation network and i believe the other proposals would benefit from the economic spillovers.

aside from the design and the site, why are you so against this??? seriously, tell me the real reason??? please, if it is some other reason, let me know the truth.

also answer this:
if this project doesn't happen, how long will this lot sit vacant?

I'm not against the convention centre at all, as a project. I just cannot possibly support the short-sightedness of this proposal in its current form. This site could support a lot of great buildings/projects. And for me height is not an issue - go as high as you want. But recognize the limitations of this site as a site for a convention centre. It is completely unsuited for this type of program. So for me, as you said, it is primarily about design - both as an architectural and urban intervention in the city.

As for how long the site will site vacant- I have no idea. And I agree that this is a huge problem - both here and other sites in the city. But to sink this much money into a project this flawed (strictly speaking in regards to the current site) just to fill in a hole - no way. The whole process surrounding this - the RFP call, the selection process, the proposed design, etc. is ridiculous. I'd rather see the city give the property owner 30+ stories to maximize potential profit, but with very precise design guidelines as far as material, and relationship at ground level.

So aside from the design and site, I'm not against this. But these two issues are huge! and can't be ignored.

[DigitalNinja]

Where else would you propose that wouldn't cost an arm and a leg to tear down something big or so far out of the way that public transit is useless. The site is not a bad site, its a block away from the old one. The renderings are not final there was a newer one on the herald website and it looked quite good IMO.
I guess it would be better in Sackville after all.

[spaustin]

Sounds a lot like my misgivings on this one. I think this site would have been better used as a more tightly built residential and commercial mix, the original plan A. The area already has a dead space in the form of the Metro Centre, it doesn't need a second space that activity comes in and out of like a flash flood. I'm also worried that the centre will ruin Grafton Street and I'm a little concerned about the massing on Argyle. The real shame in the Convention Centre though is that it's a real missed opportunity. Government money is going into it so it was a chance to do something that wouldn't otherwise happen, like tearing down the Cogswell, kicking off something on the waterfront or further connecting Pier 21 into the rest of the city. Rank was going to utilize these blocks regardless. We didn't need to put the Convention Centre there to make it happen. It's too bad that where we find ourselves now is support an imperfect design or scrap the whole thing.

[fenwick16]

There is a cost to tearing down the Cogswell Interchange. There are questions as to whether a convention centre will be built for $100 million, so it seems that it would be even less likely if the same space costs $125 - $130 million. I assume that this site was chosen because it was the lowest cost.

[someone123]

There's also a cost to keeping the Cogswell Interchange, but in the HRM those costs tend not to be properly evaluated. Millions of dollars in potential property taxes are wasted because nearby land values are depressed and land is taken up by this piece of largely useless infrastructure. The city also has to pay to maintain the interchange and it is rapidly aging. It doesn't serve a real purpose for traffic because the highway connecting to it was never built, and it is terrible for pedestrians.

[fenwick16]

Is there that much maintenance required on the Interchange? I would like to see it torn down but it might be better for the city to wait 10 - 20 years until they have to spend a significant amount to maintain it. By that time if the city continues to grow it will be worth much more.

[someone123]

Last year they spent around $500,000 on it and maintenance requirements are just going to go up. I am not sure when it will have to be overhauled, but it is from the same era as, for example, the overpass that fell apart in Montreal.

I don't think the argument that it will be worth more in the future is a good reason to avoid tearing it down. Its value is hard to predict but will most likely continue to go up over time. There's no proof that selling it in 5 years, 10 years, or 20 years will be better but in the meantime we know that there is a cost to keeping it around.

One argument is that it is a lot of land and there's already lots of empty space downtown but I don't think this is a reasonable concern either. Even if demolition plans went forward today it would still be years before there would be actual land ready for development. I also don't think that grassed over lots would be any worse than what's already there. Again, just not a very good reason to base decisions on.

[DigitalNinja]

I think the cogswell lands would be better used for pure office buildings to integrate the rest of the business area with it.