Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[invisibleairwaves]

I live in Surrey, so I've never accidentally ended up on that branch, but one of the first times I ever used the SkyTrain, I was coming home from Brentwood. I knew I had to transfer at Columbia, so I got off there, went down the stairs, across, and up to the other platform, and got on the next train that came in. Got as far as Braid before I realized I hadn't paid enough attention when I got on. D'oh.

Haven't made that mistake again. I'm not sure why some people are so confused by the system...I constantly see people staring at the maps looking absolutely befuddled trying to figure out what train they're on and where they're going. Took me about 30 seconds to figure it out, and I'm not that bright.


On a sort-of related note, are there any renovation plans for Columbia Station in the near-ish future? The platforms are way too narrow, and as a transfer point it really ought to have the platform in the middle.

[twoNeurons]

Pretty much we all concur on the middle platform idea. However, at this time, it's cost-prohibitive and too disruptive to actually do.

[Zassk]

The befuddling part is that Millennium Line loops around and on top of itself, but doesn't actually run a closed loop.

Really, regardless of how they run the trains themselves, they should never have attached the name Millennium Line to any part of the old Expo Line.

It is utterly counter-intuitive to take an south-east-bound train that says "VCC-Clark" on it.

[cabotp]

For those people who happened to jump onto the wrong train, even though they know the system. It most likely was due to not paying attention.

Then you get the group of people who can't understand the system. Thing is there is a good chance for these people that other things in life seem confusing to them as well.

[djh]

Originally Posted by cabotp

For those people who happened to jump onto the wrong train, even though they know the system. It most likely was due to not paying attention.

Then you get the group of people who can't understand the system. Thing is there is a good chance for these people that other things in life seem confusing to them as well.

What? You mean there are people out there who are not as close to perfection as you, and don't get confused on the transit system?! Their lives must be a mess - we should ostracise them!!!

So what? The system is not done as intuitively as it could have been, for what I would guess are political reasons (marking a large part of an existing line as being a "new" line on a map makes it look like whichever political governing body that greenlit the project look as if they built more than they actually did).
Anyway, so what, people get confused, and you're looking down your nose at them? They still get confused, they still are a (I would guess) large part of the number of users, so hence, the problem needs to be fixed.

I would suggest the problem is not the users, it's the labelling of the lines. It could be very simply re-labelled to avoid confusion.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by cabotp

Then you get the group of people who can't understand the system. Thing is there is a good chance for these people that other things in life seem confusing to them as well.

Elitism aside... It is critically important that we get "those people" onto the transit system as well. The system could and should be made much easier for "those people" to comprehend.

IMO, each Millennium Line train should be signed as if the second half of its trip is a return leg.

e.g. trains from Waterfront would say either "King George" or "Lougheed Mall". At some point after Columbia, the M-Line trains would change signs to say "VCC-Clark". Similar would happen in the other direction. The signs would imply that there's a required transfer between lines at Columbia. "Smart people" who are "in the know" would know to stay on the train to its ultimate destination.

I have seen this work in other cities where I was pleasantly surprised to see that I didn't need to leave my train at a transfer point. The train's signed destination just changed between stations.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by djh

What? You mean there are people out there who are not as close to perfection as you, and don't get confused on the transit system?! Their lives must be a mess - we should ostracise them!!!

So what? The system is not done as intuitively as it could have been, for what I would guess are political reasons (marking a large part of an existing line as being a "new" line on a map makes it look like whichever political governing body that greenlit the project look as if they built more than they actually did).
Anyway, so what, people get confused, and you're looking down your nose at them? They still get confused, they still are a (I would guess) large part of the number of users, so hence, the problem needs to be fixed.

I would suggest the problem is not the users, it's the labelling of the lines. It could be very simply re-labelled to avoid confusion.

True Life:

Waiting at Burrard to go home, I was approached by a gaggle of Olympic Visitors. "Where is the platform for the Yellow trains? We've been waiting here for over half an hour, and the only trains that have shown up are the Blue Trains and White Trains. Now We're Late getting to Olympic Hockey Palace.

How much more confused were they after I tried to explain that
"Olympic Hockey Palace" was actually "Olympic Hockey PLACE", but everyone living in Vancouver knows it as GM Place - it was temporarily renamed just for the Olympics.
And the SkyTrain lines are named "Expo" and "Millennium" - the colours are only used on the maps to show the different routes that "Expo" and "Millennium" Skytrains take.
And SkyTrain also refers to underground trains and stations too.
And the colours of the trains only matter to traingeeks who gottahavetoknow which generation the cars belong to. A train can be made up of whatever cars were available in the train yard.
And you need to be downstairs on the EASTBOUND platform, where you can jump on ANY train that arrives.
and you need to get off at STADIUM station to get to GM Place - I mean "Olympic Hockey PLACE"

I hope they didn't end up missing the entire game, considering how long it took to 'simplify' their travel instructions.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by cabotp

For those people who happened to jump onto the wrong train, even though they know the system. It most likely was due to not paying attention.

Then you get the group of people who can't understand the system. Thing is there is a good chance for these people that other things in life seem confusing to them as well.

I stumbled across a blog a few years ago, where the author was sharing stories about living in NYC with a young family.

He was always amused by how his boys were fascinated by the big & noisy subway, and would always come up with an excuse to use it whenever possible. One day while waiting with his boys for their train, a confused traveler asked him how to get to Lex/62nd. While he was thinking of routes & transfers he'd rarely used, the six year old piped up "Oh thats easy! Just take any train heading uptown and get out at Times Square. Walk over to the IND station on 7th and catch an N or an R or an W that goes to Astoria Ditmars. Get out at 59th and Lex"

Before he could agree with these instructions, the younger brother piped up "you silly dilly! the W doesn't run on Saturday and the R goes to Forest Hills not Astoria. GEEEEZ" (as only a younger brother can do when he knows he's PWNed his older brother)

He reassured the confused traveler they were correct - Uptown to Times Square; transfer to N Astoria or R Forest Hills; exit at Lex/59th station.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by Zassk

Elitism aside... It is critically important that we get "those people" onto the transit system as well. The system could and should be made much easier for "those people" to comprehend.

IMO, each Millennium Line train should be signed as if the second half of its trip is a return leg.

e.g. trains from Waterfront would say either "King George" or "Lougheed Mall". At some point after Columbia, the M-Line trains would change signs to say "VCC-Clark". Similar would happen in the other direction. The signs would imply that there's a required transfer between lines at Columbia. "Smart people" who are "in the know" would know to stay on the train to its ultimate destination.

I have seen this work in other cities where I was pleasantly surprised to see that I didn't need to leave my train at a transfer point. The train's signed destination just changed between stations.

or "SkyTrain Millennium Line to VCC-Clark via Metrotown, Columbia and Lougheed."
After Metrotown it becomes "SkyTrain Millennium Line to VCC-Clark via Columbia and Lougheed."
After Columbia it becomes "SkyTrain Millennium Line to VCC-Clark via Lougheed."
and after Lougheed it becomes "SkyTrain Millennium Line to VCC-Clark"

or "SkyTrain Expo Line to King George via Metrotown, Columbia, and Scott Road".
after Metrotown it becomes "SkyTrain Expo Line to King George via Columbia and Scott Road"
After Columbia it becomes "SkyTrain Expo Line to King George via Scott Road"
and after Scott Road it becomes "SkyTrain Expo Line to King George"

[nname]

Just have a strip of LED attached to the window beside the door, which turns blue for Expo train and yellow for Millennium train...

[jsbertram]

or you can just read the LED sign at the middle of the platform that indicates what train this is ...

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by Zassk

The befuddling part is that Millennium Line loops around and on top of itself, but doesn't actually run a closed loop.

Really, regardless of how they run the trains themselves, they should never have attached the name Millennium Line to any part of the old Expo Line.

It is utterly counter-intuitive to take an south-east-bound train that says "VCC-Clark" on it.

Most people have no idea where -physically or geographically- something is. They just know they have to get to "Lougheed" somehow. and then back home. how the skytrain gets there is *magic* because there isn't a driver.

east ? north ? too confusing.
Inbound ? outbound ? Eyes glaze over.
Expo line ? Millennium line ? B-Line ? Head starts to hurt.
Platform 3 ? now you're speaking klingon.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by cabotp

For those people who happened to jump onto the wrong train, even though they know the system. It most likely was due to not paying attention.

Then you get the group of people who can't understand the system. Thing is there is a good chance for these people that other things in life seem confusing to them as well.

How many people do we know whose VCRs are still blinking "12:00"?
and how many people are still wondering why Tony is doing the news on channel 3 and sometimes channel 6, but he's not on channel 11 anymore?

[Waders]

There will be service adjustments for VCC/Clark Station from June 1-6 as Translink is hosting the APTA Rail conference in June, and the Rail Rodeo competition will take place from June 4 to June 5.

From what I can remember, this is the 1st time a skytrain station that is already in service being shutdown for a competition!

If you are interested in the competition detail, I found the Rail Rodeo competition Handbook online.
http://www.apta.com/mc/conferences/90days/2010railroad/Documents/2010_Intl_Rail_Rodeo_Handbook.pdf

VCC/Clark closed June 4-5
In June, TransLink is hosting the 2010 American Public Transportation Association (APTA) Rail Rodeo competition. Due to event activities, VCC/Clark Station will be closed June 4-5 and bus service to VCC/Clark will be rerouted from June 1-6.

Source: http://buzzer.translink.ca/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/2010_04_30_web.pdf

[red-paladin]

VCC is easily the red-headed stepchild of our skytrain system, so no doubt it was easy to choose.

[mr.x]

I've been on several transit systems, and by far ours is the most difficult to understand and use....from fare machines, to the zones, to wayfinding signage, etc. The other day I noticed that "Canada Line transfer" wayfinding signs were installed in Granville Station, but they weren't placed in logical locations nor were there enough directions to get you to the Canada Line from the Granville Station platforms.

And at times even Translink seems to be oblivious to how user-unfriendly their system can be.....like how Drew Snider initially blamed passengers for following non-existent instructions on how to use the credit card payment feature on the new fare machines on the Canada Line.

[Waders]

From TransLink's Statutory Annual Report :

• The plan to refurbish the older MK I SkyTrain vehicles is under review and is being compared with the alternative of replacing them with a smaller number of MK II cars, which can carry more passengers per car

Source: http://www.translink.ca/en/About-TransLi...racks-Stategic-Plan-Accomplishments.aspx

I like the option to replace all the old MKI car with new MKII car. It will make all skytrain car uniform. Line can then be drawn on the platform floor to indicate the location of train door and I can wait at the same spot.

[Waders]

Originally Posted by mr.x

I've been on several transit systems, and by far ours is the most difficult to understand and use....from fare machines, to the zones, to wayfinding signage, etc. The other day I noticed that "Canada Line transfer" wayfinding signs were installed in Granville Station, but they weren't placed in logical locations nor were there enough directions to get you to the Canada Line from the Granville Station platforms.

Because of that sign near the Bay's entrance at Granville Station, quite a few people asked me the direction to get to Canada Line station. Some tourists even mistook the Expo Line station for Canada Line station.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by Waders

There will be service adjustments for VCC/Clark Station from June 1-6 as Translink is hosting the APTA Rail conference in June, and the Rail Rodeo competition will take place from June 4 to June 5.

From what I can remember, this is the 1st time a skytrain station that is already in service being shutdown for a competition!

If you are interested in the competition detail, I found the Rail Rodeo competition Handbook online.
http://www.apta.com/mc/conferences/90days/2010railroad/Documents/2010_Intl_Rail_Rodeo_Handbook.pdf


Source: http://buzzer.translink.ca/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/2010_04_30_web.pdf

I've heard of Bus rodeos and train rodeos, where the drivers/operators are tested for their skills operating their buses or trains.

which leads to an obvious question (I hope) .....
How do you test someone's skills operating an automated driver-less SkyTrain?

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by mr.x

I've been on several transit systems, and by far ours is the most difficult to understand and use....from fare machines, to the zones, to wayfinding signage, etc. The other day I noticed that "Canada Line transfer" wayfinding signs were installed in Granville Station, but they weren't placed in logical locations nor were there enough directions to get you to the Canada Line from the Granville Station platforms.

And at times even Translink seems to be oblivious to how user-unfriendly their system can be.....like how Drew Snider initially blamed passengers for following non-existent instructions on how to use the credit card payment feature on the new fare machines on the Canada Line.

I'd love to find a video on YouTube of him, or a translink director, even any other SkyTrain mandarin fussing with an uncooperative TVM.