Rail-based Transit Discussion

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by hfx_chris

I might as well show my map while we're at it!

I did this up a couple of years ago. It basically starts with a small loop around the peninsula (rail cut, Barrington and Quinpool), continuing on through Southwestern Junction to the Chester sub, terminating at a park and ride lot near the Hwy 103/NW Arm Drive interchange. There's of course always the possibility some sections downtown could be buried (cut and cover).
Future expansion options would be to Beaverbank, via the CN main line to Windsor Junction, then taking the former DAR (now Windsor and Hantsport Railway) to Beaverbank, shown in light blue on the map.
And some day if some sort of third crossing or bridge was constructed, there's the possibility to expand into Dartmouth via the bridge/tunnel and hwy 111. I terminated that route for some reason at Burnside Drive and Akerley, and I don't really remember why; it would make a lot more sense for it to re-join the Dartmouth sub and continue on to Windsor Junction, forming one giant loop.

http://local.google.ca/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&h...63.598309&spn=0.091597,0.222988&t=h&z=13

Interesting route, especially the idea of having rail follow the highway where possible. One thing that I would change is to forget about the rail cut and have it go up Spring Garden Road and Coburg pass Dalhouse University.

The length of the downtown Halifax/Dalhousie University/West Mall route would be similar to the Buffalo, NY LRT which is 10.3 KM long (80% subway) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_Metro_Rail . I think that the Halifax system might have similar ridership numbers if it is a short route through the highest population density neighbourhoods.

[hfx_chris]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

One thing that I would change is to forget about the rail cut and have it go up Spring Garden Road and Coburg pass Dalhouse University.

The whole point of using the cut is to reduce cost for that initial peninsular loop. It's there, after all.

[fenwick16]

It just seems like there aren't many businesses close to the rail cut although there is St. Mary's University. In my opinion, in order for a rail route to be feasible it should be located in areas where it will serve the most people - such as Spring Garden Road, Dalhousie University and the Hospitals. Although I can understand the temptation to use the rail cut because it is there, I don't think that there is a good reason otherwise.

[halifaxboyns]

I like your plan Chris, but I have to agree with Fenwick on the rail cut - although it's good that you are thinking about ways to reduce costs.

When I did my transportation planning courses, once of the key concepts that got drilled into my head by the prof was when constructing mass transit, make sure you hit key employment sectors - which are often some of the major trip generators (since they employ the most people). Universities are also good trip generation sources as well, as are key shopping districts. And of course, grab spots where park and ride can work for major residential areas.

But one other thing that he said was to also look for possibility sites that at the outset, didn't look like they had a major impact on the system at the initial time the system goes online, but over time could grow and evolve to be areas of trip generation from people living or coming to work there.

So on the Peninsula, here are the major employment centres:
QE 2/VG Hospitals;
IWK Hospital
Dalhousie and St. Mary's Universities (both as employment and education)
Downtown Office Core (mainly around Scotia Square)
Limitied office at Maritime Centre and surrounding area
DND Dockyard.

Then of course Spring Garden is a major shopping area, for the most part (and is continuing to be so).

So when I looked at the route that I conceived, I looked at areas that I thought could grow, not just on the Halifax side, but the Dartmouth side too. Although some may not agree, I see potential for Quinpool to become bigger and more prominant with residential above mainly ground floor commercial. The Quinpool Shopping Centre has great redevelopment potential - especially the multi residential behind it. The same is true (IMO) for Highfield Park - let things go bigger, say 10 stories, maybe even 15. With Burnside, more class B offices - taller offices (to take the pressure off downtown and have more cross trips). Mumford and Bayers Road I saw the same potential, either more intensive commercial for offices or mall expansion or additional residential towers.

The only exception to concept was probably the station I suggested at Connaught and Quinpool - not really much potential there, but it was a go between station, so that you didn't have such a long distance to west end mall.

If I look at my concept, yes it has a tunnel under the harbour to the Bridge Terminal - this is all about pie in the sky, why not? Or it could be a train only bridge too. Bridge Terminal also has some potential with the Dartmouth Shopping Centre and the other strip mall for redevelopment. The last Dartmouth stations is Brightwood - which I think has the potential to be a great high density neighbourhood.

Now in real life, it could probably work, but it would be a much shorter route that would expand over time - but a second line out to Penhorn and Cole Harbour would also capture those areas of growth - while providing additional frequency in downtown (with the dual service in the Core and Dock yard).

One thing that someone said earlier was maybe to have the systems end at the Ferry and then Ferry Across the harbour - I don't think that would work. One of the things I learned in my TP class was that human beings like things simple - so make your system as easy as possible, few connections, as direct routing as possible. When you add in connections to something like a ferry, there is too much room for error or missed connections (although the same can be said for multi-route subways too - which is why systems which have overlapping areas of service tend to work better).

[hfx_chris]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

It just seems like there aren't many businesses close to the rail cut although there is St. Mary's University. In my opinion, in order for a rail route to be feasible it should be located in areas where it will serve the most people - such as Spring Garden Road, Dalhousie University and the Hospitals. Although I can understand the temptation to use the rail cut because it is there, I don't think that there is a good reason otherwise.

LRT on Spring Garden Road? Yeah, I'd love to see that happen...I just think burying it the entire way is much too cost prohibitive.

[someone123]

The problem is not the cost so much as the opportunity cost. Instead of building one kilometre of subway tunnel the city could build a whole LRT line above ground. The difference between digging and simply laying down a bit of concrete and steel on the surface is huge. Another important point is that in the worst case rail along the street that has to cross intersections would be slightly faster than buses and way more comfortable. If this is combined with some dedicated ROW components a little farther out then you end up with a nice system that is relatively inexpensive.

The harbour crossing is similar. Nobody would deny that a subway across the harbour would be useful, but the question is whether or not that money could be better invested in another way. Given the fact that ferries already operate it's better to start with a light rail system that extends out to suburbs on the Halifax side - those areas are also more densely inhabited and have higher transit use to begin with.

[halifaxboyns]

From the cost perspective - someone is probably right that using a portion of or all of the railcut would save money. Especially if you could work it to include the train station.

No matter what; it won't be a cheap project because of the constraints around the city. An underground system would be one that would be the least impact overall in terms of the finished product, cars could still drive the streets as normally without interaction with the trains and the trains wouldn't be impeded by traffic lights (whether its an underground LRT or automated system like Vancouver).

An LRT above ground - either at grade or elevated would have impacts mainly due to construction of the system and potential impacts like noise or expropriation of land to construct the line itself (I'm thinking long term and I'm sure any NIMBY would say the noise, the noise!).

From my perspective, I think setting up a system similar to the Go train using the rail cut is a good start - probably the least expensive in terms of infrastructure spending, but anything more will be costly.

A good way to determine the viability of a route is BRT - that's what they've done in Calgary and it really showed the need for the West LRT (when the 301 started running).

I think we already know that the universities and downtown need it, since typically the 10 and 1 are standing room only - but it would be interesting to see how a BRT would run along the same route as the 1, but expanded out into Clayton Park and then extening on the Dartmouth side maybe to Mic Mac Mall? Or out to Highfield.

[MalcolmTucker]

^ have to remember that all of Calgary's LRT corridors were basically sketched out in the 60s (like from where to where) and the routes were mostly defined in the 70s. Land use was then planned to support the routes.

So it is pretty easy to run a bus like the 301 and 'prove' the need for lrt, since the route was planned for a generation.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby

^ have to remember that all of Calgary's LRT corridors were basically sketched out in the 60s (like from where to where) and the routes were mostly defined in the 70s. Land use was then planned to support the routes.

So it is pretty easy to run a bus like the 301 and 'prove' the need for lrt, since the route was planned for a generation.

Oh yes, I know there was a lot of pre-planning. But I think to a certain extent, the route for some sort of mass transit system (either a subway or LRT) could easily be established based on the high capacity routes. So from the higher density residential neighbourhoods around Clayton Park and Bayers Road (also Ashburn - if and when it redevelops), then of course Mumford.

Quinpool would be a bonus street in an effort to encourge redevelopment but then you'd have all the major employment centres from there: QE 2 Hospital, Dalhousie, Spring Garden Road, Downtown and the dockyards. If crossing the harbour was a big cost - then end it at the dockyard?

[someone123]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

From my perspective, I think setting up a system similar to the Go train using the rail cut is a good start - probably the least expensive in terms of infrastructure spending, but anything more will be costly.

It would be great but the project has been dead in the water for over a decade. The current mayor, Peter Kelly, won an election partly on the basis of commuter rail and it hasn't happened. As far as I know CN simply isn't interested and they own the right of way.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by someone123

It would be great but the project has been dead in the water for over a decade. The current mayor, Peter Kelly, won an election partly on the basis of commuter rail and it hasn't happened. As far as I know CN simply isn't interested and they own the right of way.

I suspect it may be better to start off with the high speed ferry system and then work up from there - far less hassle (although an application to increase speed limits for these ferry's would be necessary for the harbour).

My belief is that CN would get on board with the right stimulus - meaning money. So if HRM were to contract out the maintenance of the train cars to CN, lease track time and pay to maintenance the platforms they build - I suspect they would be on board. Let's face it; as a private company they are all about getting more money and looking good for shareholders.

[beyeas]

Light-rail solution touted for HRM
Siemens Canada boss on nationwide tour to promote sustainable urban transit plans
By JUDY MYRDEN Business Reporter
Fri. Jun 25 - 4:54 AM

HALIFAX NEEDS to build a mass transit system to get commuters off the road, says the head of Siemens Canada.

While Halifax has no immediate plans for any light-rail network, some believe politicians must start thinking long term about transportation issues, as the rest of North America drives toward more sustainable cities.

"There are improvements to be done in the transportation area," Roland Aurich said in an interview Thursday in Halifax.

That would make the city cleaner and more attractive and help keep university graduates in the city, he said.

The president and CEO of the Canadian operations of the German-based transportation and engineering conglomerate is on a cross-country tour promoting a $100,000 study it sponsored with the David Suzuki Foundation.

The study found transportation and waste water management are the two biggest challenges facing cities in the future.

"We believe a good mass transit solution, based on rail traffic, and having an intelligent and efficient connection around city centres, and also connecting airports and other close-by cities, is really essential for giving that level of quality that people expect to have," said Aurich.

The study, conducted by GlobeScan in 12 of Canada’s largest cities, could be construed as being self-serving, since Siemens does this type of transportation construction, Aurich said the research was conducted as part of the company’s corporate responsibility.

He said about 70 per cent of the workforce travelling to Halifax commutes in their own cars, and about 80 per cent of power consumption takes place in cities.

"There is a need for cities to engage in creating more sustainable solutions going forward," Aurich said, before he met with Halifax Mayor Peter Kelly.

He said Siemens is interested in helping Halifax and other cities rebuild old infrastructure to pave the way for the future.

The environment and sustainability are two key drivers that will attract people to the area and keep graduates from local universities here, Aurich said. They will also help to develop the city’s economy

[halifaxboyns]

Well fenwick - looks like your LRT concept has gotten a boost without anyone saying a word!?

I like that they admit the report is pretty self serving; since they are looking to provide the vehicles. I got a kick out of that, but still - great way to get people thinking.

[Canadian_Bacon]

I'd like to see a light rail system from the airport to Halifax. It could just follow along the 102 etc. It would be great for the 'green' aspect of the HRM.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

Well fenwick - looks like your LRT concept has gotten a boost without anyone saying a word!?

I like that they admit the report is pretty self serving; since they are looking to provide the vehicles. I got a kick out of that, but still - great way to get people thinking.

But will anyone at city hall listen? When I think of LRT though, I am thinking in terms of frequent service to the most densely populated areas. More of a subway/surface/elevated LRT as opposed to commuter rail. More like the Toronto subway but with a much shorter track (7 kilometers would be a good start, serving the downtown, Spring Garden Road, universities and possibly the West Mall). Although this would be costly, the federal government will usually contribute to such projects since it is seen as being environmentally friendly.

[Canadian_Bacon]

I don't think they would ever go for a subway system of any kind in the near or distant future. I don't think Halifax is large enough to justify such a huge expense that it would cost. Subways are only for large cities of like a million +. I think a light, surface rail system is about all Halifax could ask for at this time. Something that connects major points of the city... Like the airport, downtown Dartmouth, downtown Halifax etc.

I don't see many Haligonians using a subway system anyway. Those that would use it most would be students who don't have a car etc. But once University is out for the summer, the ridership would drop significantly. Plus most of the densest parts of the city are close to each other anyway that most would just walk. When you live in the city core, you most likely have a job within walking distance if you don't have a car. So a subway would be useless for that part of the city. Those that do have a job outside of the city core, have a car, and would just keep driving it even if a transit system was available.

To me a subway in the core would not work due to...

1. The densest part of the city where people live where the subway would be proposed... Those that live there probably live close to their jobs in the core. So they would be within walking distance.
2. Those that live in the city core but have a job outside the core. A subway would not be available to take them to their job, so they would drive.

So either way, I don't see many using such a system.

It would be cool to happen, but I just don't see it ever happening.

[MalcolmTucker]

^ Pointless to serve out to the airport really, would be more of a vanity project than anything at this stage. Better to build effective links for commuters that take the same route everyday than for a handful of individuals that take a trip a couple times a year and have a catchment area of the entire region.

[alps]

Airport could easily be served by a bus I'm sure

[MonctonRad]

A subway would never work in Halifax.
- Halifax is too small. The smallest city in Canada with a subway is Edmonton at about 1.1M people.
- Halifax is not dense enough and the downtown core is far too compact to generate the needed ridership.
- The city is built directly on bedrock. You'd damn near need a nuclear device to dig the tunnels. The costs to build a subway would be prohibitive.

An LRT system for Halifax would be problematic.
- An elevated LRT track system would drive the NIMBY's into a frenzy.
- A surface LRT would have to share the right of way with existing street traffic which would be aggravating for car drivers in the downtown.
- Without a dedicated right of way, LRT would not be a realistic option in getting commuters to the downtown from the suburbs.

This is the rub.......the problem is not so much in getting people around downtown, it's in getting the commuters to the downtown in the first place!!

LRT's and subways are not feasible or practical in getting those people from Cole Harbour, Bedford, Sackville or Hammond's Plains into the core. You need a high capacity system that can transport people (relatively) long distances in order to reduce commuter traffic congestion.

Busses in some ways are not the answer. Since they use existing roadways, they are subject to unpredictable scheduling due to traffic congestion problems. This could be solved by HOV lanes, but these are not really an option in Halifax as there are no freeways into the downtown and the existing roadways are too narrow to dedicate entire lanes to high occupancy vehicles.

This leaves only two options:
- high speed ferries
- commuter rail

To me, high speed ferries would be expensive and suffer from capacity issues. The term "high speed" is a relative one for any form of water transportation and a round trip from Bedford would likely be about one hour. I'm not against high speed ferries, but I don't think that it is the entire answer.

This leaves commuter rail as the most viable alternative. Advantages include:
- There is already a dedicated rail corridor into downtown Halifax. This formerly was completely double tracked. It would not be very costly to double track it again.
- The rail corridor follows the bulk of the metro areas population out through the west end, Clayton Park, along the basin and to Bedford and beyond.
- Commuter rail could be added to existing rail connections to Dartmouth, Enfield, Waverly and to Windsor.
- A relatively small number of suburban commuter stations could be built and could include park 'n ride lots. This could take a large number of vehicles off the road, freeing up the downtown streets for legitimate commercial vehicle traffic. Less congestion would also make the downtown more attractive for tourists and for casual shoppers.

Commuter rail is the way to go. It is really the only economically viable and effective option for Halifax. The city should begin negotiating with CNR immediately.

[fenwick16]

OK, so you make a lot of good points but a rapid transit system within the city gets cars off city roads and reduces the requirement for parking within the city. So make it a surface system whereby it has dedicated roadways within the city and ROW wherever possible. Sounds like BRT is the way to start.

Commuter rail to the suburbs would be good also. I think that the HRM should consider both. Although a ferry from Bedford would be great, it won't have any stops between Bedford and the downtown so I think that commuter rail will have higher ridership numbers. It might be that the commuter train would only operate during rush hour and then during the day it might be an Express bus.