West LRT | 7 Stations | 8.0 KM | In Service

[The Chemist]

I guess I'm not particularly impressed by the time it's going to take to build this line. 2.5 years for an 8km line seems a little long to me, though I suppose I'm just spoiled by the incredible speed of Metro construction here in Shanghai. While I understand the reasons (low cost of labour and materials, more labour available, etc), it's hard to be impressed by the construction of a relatively short light rail line in 2.5 years when they can build a 40km long, bored tunnel and elevated heavy metro line here in the same amount of time.

[frinkprof]

Nevermind.

[The Chemist]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

Remember we also have a little thing here called winter and freezing ground.

True, I totally forgot about that...

[jeffwhit]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

Remember we also have a little thing here called winter and freezing ground.

and human rights and basic standards for labour.

[frinkprof]

Nevermind.

[eggbert]

I drove up 17th Ave today and was very impressed with the amount of work going on, its absolutely everywhere! That temp bridge up by Westside Rec Centre is crazy too!

[Bassic Lab]

The ultimate length of a line only has a peripheral relationship to construction time. If labour is limited then it can have an affect but without that issue it simply does not matter. It is not like they start at one end and work towards the other. Construction can easily occur along the entire length at the same time.

[The Chemist]

Originally Posted by jeffwhit

and human rights and basic standards for labour.

Yup. And noise bylaws, and safety standards/precautions (both for workers and nearby residents/passersby), and due process for property acquisition, etc.

Despite what certain media may tell you, these things do exist in China, especially in the larger cities. For example, about two years ago the extension of the Shanghai Maglev was stopped due to complaints and concerns about radiation and noise from local residents.

[MichaelS]

Radiation? What were they building (or using to build) that would cause this concern?

[MalcolmTucker]

Electromagnetic radiation, reasonably baseless, but just like some people believe they have diseases caused by wind turbines, cell towers, etc.

[MichaelS]

Thanks.

[lubicon]

I have to agree with Chemist on this one. 2.5 years for a pretty short and simple line seems excessively long to me. I do understand their are other issues that come into play, as others have mentioned. Still, I don't see why they can't work 7 days/week, 10-12 hours / day. Run 2 shifts of workers - 4 days on / 4 days off.

[sim]

I'm gonna have to agree with Chemist on this one.

The one that always bewilders me is the Chek Lap Kok airport on Lantau Island and all of its associated infrastructure.

5 years to basically create and island, build the largest (by building volume if I remember correctly) and most advanced airport, reclaim land along an entire island for a new freeway and the MTR airport express metro line, the world's biggest train/vehichle suspesion bridge (Tsing Ma) and also one of the biggest cable-stayed bridges (Kap Shui Mun,) an elevated freeway and then a cross-harbour tunnel for both vehichles and the airport express.

It's kind of mind-blowing.

[MalcolmTucker]

Building faster I would bet would have to involve more road closures to give all those extra workers room to work. Plus there are some things that are just path dependent, I know a couple years ago it was hard to even get 5 yards of concrete out to a site without booking months in advance - I wonder if there are still capacity problems or if the recession took care of that?

[SubwayRev]

Originally Posted by lubicon

I have to agree with Chemist on this one. 2.5 years for a pretty short and simple line seems excessively long to me. I do understand their are other issues that come into play, as others have mentioned. Still, I don't see why they can't work 7 days/week, 10-12 hours / day. Run 2 shifts of workers - 4 days on / 4 days off.

They could, it would just cost a lot more. That's why China can build things so quickly...they have near unlimited funding and a near unlimited labour pool. And they do not have to go through community consultations, open houses, surveys, land acquisition, construction bidding process, etc. The benefits of a dictatorial regime!

[You Need A Thneed]

Things could be done faster, but for the most part, that pushes costs up.

You have to hire more workers. Generally you try to keep a core group of your best workers. That means that the extra people you hire aren't as good, aren't as loyal to your company, etc. The second crew isn't going to be as good as the first crew. So you have to hire more than just 2x the people to try and compensate. Having more crews also means more supervisors to pay for, and other higher wage people.

For stuff like the WestLRT, production is limited by the equipment as well. Tunnelling & erecting elevated line involves more specialized machines. If you want to do the work twice as fast, you need twice as many machines. This adds to the setup/takedown cost of the machines - and for those types of machines, setup and takedown is a huge part of the cost.

A big part of the reason why projects can't go faster is simply that concrete needs drying/strengthening time. One thing has to be formed, then poured, and then the forms taken off in order for the next part to be formed. Things have to be done in order. Perhaps things could be done closer together, but it would add significantly to the complexity and hassle - adding to the cost.

Also, in places like Calgary, you really can only do earthmoving work properly for about half the year. No engineer will let a contractor fill with frozen soil. Concrete work requires hoarding in the weather is too cold. Lots of projects mostly shut down for the winter, if time isn't critical. Hoarding and heating, again, adds significantly to the complexity and hassle of doing work.

These things are just the nature of doing work here.

[Mazrim]

Plus, you get days like today where not a whole lot of work will be done, or if any is done...it will be slower. Good old winter reminding us that it isn't summer yet!

[frinkprof]

Nevermind.

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by lubicon

I have to agree with Chemist on this one. 2.5 years for a pretty short and simple line seems excessively long to me. I do understand their are other issues that come into play, as others have mentioned. Still, I don't see why they can't work 7 days/week, 10-12 hours / day. Run 2 shifts of workers - 4 days on / 4 days off.

The four days on four days off routine is really only applicable to oil work, or at least work in remote locations. Trades in the city expect to work a normal five day week. More than eight hours a day or five days a week warrants overtime pay to make up for denying the worker a normal life. I neither expect or want the city to pay the kind of money that it takes for people to be willing to work out in Fort Mac.

That and really, it can only speed up so much. To complete the tunnel portion a number of steps need to be made. First a new high school must be built before much can be done. Then they have to demolish the existing school, dig the trench, pour the concrete, lay the track, string the catenary, and cap it off. This process will take time no matter how many workers you have. A similar issue comes up with Sarcee and 17th; first they have to construct the detour and only then can they work on the overpasses. The length of the line has no bearing on how long individual portions take to finish. If they were building the line out to Aspen from the get go it would be longer but wouldn't take any more time, that portion of the line would be the easiest to build.

[tdurden5573]

Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby

Electromagnetic radiation, reasonably baseless, but just like some people believe they have diseases caused by wind turbines, cell towers, etc.

Ya, the Maglev line between Berlin and Hamburg was scrapped partly due to people around the track being concerned about the radiation. I personally think its a freaking joke, as im sure most of these people are habitual smokers! Its all relative.

I'm actually impressed with the speed and progress of the west line, its not a trivial task to build a line through a congested part of the city.