Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[mr.x]

Great post by Paul Hillsdon:


SkyTrain to UBC would cut travel time by over 50%!

http://www.paulhillsdon.com/?p=1079


Metro Vancouver / Rants / Transportation — Comments — Paul
23
Apr 10
SkyTrain to UBC would cut travel time by over 50%!

The Great Broadway Debate is capturing the attention of the populace, as citizens and transit riders discuss whether the rapid transit extension to UBC should be SkyTrain or Light Rail. What I’m genuinely excited about is how mature and informed most of the conversation is. We’ve moved so far beyond the arguments of light rail on Arbutus versus subway for Cambie for RAV. Back then, everyone was bitching about their own needs and taking very ideological positions on the matter. Not anymore though, as a greater awareness and understanding has emerged in Metro Vancouverites about transit. We’re not even talking anymore about whether or not the line is important – we’re so far beyond that – but actively discussing different technologies, the various impacts each technology will have on the corridor, the long term benefits of each option, how the choices fit into the regional network, and so on. It’s a very exciting time for transit advocates in the region, that’s for sure.

As I wrote earlier, because Light Rail would not be as frequent, reliable, or fast as we’ve come to expect of rapid transit in this region, I support SkyTrain for this section (and only this section) of the network. This is due primarily to the short blocks along Broadway which, with pedestrians, cyclists, and cars crossing at intersections, would slow down any at-grade train, just as buses currently experience. This means that Light Rail would not be appreciably faster than the current 99 B-Line, which on average takes about 35 minutes to travel from Commercial-Broadway to UBC.

I’ve done some calculations about the speed and travel time of our existing and planned SkyTrain routes, and used these numbers to parlay into an estimated travel time for a UBC SkyTrain extension.

* Expo Line: 30km @ 39 mins = 1.3k/min with 20 stations
* Millennium Line (Columbia to VCC): 20km @ 27 mins = 1.35k/min with 13 stations
* Canada Line (Richmond branch): 14.3km @ 25 mins = 1.74k/min with 14 stations
* Evergreen Line (Lougheed to Douglas): 11.3km @ 13 mins = 1.15k/min with 6 stations

Obviously, the number of stations has an impact on travel time, as well as the general speed of the train.

That said, if we calculate that the UBC Line, from VCC to UBC, traveled at 1.3km/min, the route would take 16 mins to travel! That cuts travel time down by 54%! Comparatively, Light Rail would continue to take approximatively 35 minutes to reach the University campus.

Travel from Coquitlam Centre, with the Evergreen Line built, would take 47 mins, instead of the current 83 mins using the 97 B-Line, the Millennium Line, and the 99 B-Line.

Compared to using the Canada Line and 99-B Line, which takes 47 mins, travel from Richmond-Brighouse would instead be only 31 mins!

Travel from Surrey Central would take 44 mins, down from 63!

And get this! Currently, the fastest one can travel to UBC from Lonsdale Quay is just over 60 mins. This is using the SeaBus and the 44 express bus. With SeaBus, Canada Line, and UBC SkyTrain, the trip would decrease to only 32 mins!

Travel time is a critical factor for a transit line’s success and has much wider reaching effects on regional land use and the psyche of the populace. Studies have shown that a travel time of 40 minutes one way is about the limit to which most people can handle before they begin to change other patterns to bring themselves closer to their school or job, such as switching modes (for example, if a car gets there faster) or moving from their homes.

The existing trip to UBC from Richmond is pushing that psychological 40 minute limit, while Surrey and the North Shore are well into the plus-one-hour range. Coquitlam is almost an hour and a half! This means that many workers and students likely need to live within the Vancouver/Burnaby area to sustain a reasonable travel time average, limiting their housing options. People from the suburbs meanwhile are more likely to travel via car because it simply takes too long on transit.

With a UBC SkyTrain, these factors change dramatically. Looking at the estimates above, trips from Coquitlam and Surrey would both be just around the 40 minute max, while Richmond and the North Shore are around 30 minutes! This completely opens up access to housing options in these more affordable areas of the region, providing greater opportunities for employment and education for more people, as they will no longer have to spend more money to live in Vancouver/Burnaby or travel in from the suburbs via car.

Speed on transit has far reaching implications. This is not just about moving faster than cars. This is about greater access to affordable lifestyles for more people across the region. It’s about providing citizens with choices of where they want to live without having to sacrifice mobility. Light Rail is not at all competitive with SkyTrain on this speed factor, and for that alone we should not be choosing it for Broadway.






"It's about the economy, stupid." - Bill Clinton, 1992


"It's about speed and travel times, stupid." - anonymous, 2010 :p

[jlousa]

Good thing I passed math, Paul's numbers are wrong and he needs to fix them before others grab onto to them and mock him

30km in 39min is not 1.3K/min it's .77Km/min for Expo
20km in 27 min in not 1.35km/min it's .74km/min for Millenium
14.3 in 25 min is not 1.74/km/min it's only .572 for the Canada line.

So using the expo line numbers his 16min now becomes 27mins, still a savings but nowhere near what his math suggested.


It's about the Math stupid ---- Ferris Wheeler Hater 2010

[deasine]

Yeah it's way too fast. TransLink estimated SkyTrain will ~ 25 minutes to UBC from Commercial FYI

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by deasine

Yeah it's way too fast. TransLink estimated SkyTrain will ~ 25 minutes to UBC from Commercial FYI

That's still a whole lot faster than B Line, or any bus system, or a stop-go-stop-go LRT !!!

[mr.x]

Hmmm...so:


SkyTrain: 25-mins (hopefully they can shave off a few-mins)

LRT: 35-40-mins

99 B-Line: 40-mins

Trolley: ?

[arashi_1987]

Originally Posted by mr.x

Hmmm...so:


SkyTrain: 25-mins (hopefully they can shave off a few-mins)

LRT: 35-40-mins

99 B-Line: 40-mins

Trolley: ?

I've done it by mistake! LOL 1hour and 15minutes and got booted off the 9 at Alma (back in the days going to UBC for the first time in my life, took the wrong bus).

[The_Henry_Man]

Originally Posted by mr.x

Great post by Paul Hillsdon:


SkyTrain to UBC would cut travel time by over 50%!

http://www.paulhillsdon.com/?p=1079


Metro Vancouver / Rants / Transportation — Comments — Paul
23
Apr 10
SkyTrain to UBC would cut travel time by over 50%!


I’ve done some calculations about the speed and travel time of our existing and planned SkyTrain routes, and used these numbers to parlay into an estimated travel time for a UBC SkyTrain extension.

* Expo Line: 30km @ 39 mins = 1.3k/min with 20 stations
* Millennium Line (Columbia to VCC): 20km @ 27 mins = 1.35k/min with 13 stations
* Canada Line (Richmond branch): 14.3km @ 25 mins = 1.74k/min with 14 stations
* Evergreen Line (Lougheed to Douglas): 11.3km @ 13 mins = 1.15k/min with 6 stations

Obviously, the number of stations has an impact on travel time, as well as the general speed of the train.

That said, if we calculate that the UBC Line, from VCC to UBC, traveled at 1.3km/min, the route would take 16 mins to travel! That cuts travel time down by 54%! Comparatively, Light Rail would continue to take approximatively 35 minutes to reach the University campus.

Travel from Coquitlam Centre, with the Evergreen Line built, would take 47 mins, instead of the current 83 mins using the 97 B-Line, the Millennium Line, and the 99 B-Line.

Compared to using the Canada Line and 99-B Line, which takes 47 mins, travel from Richmond-Brighouse would instead be only 31 mins!

Travel from Surrey Central would take 44 mins, down from 63!

And get this! Currently, the fastest one can travel to UBC from Lonsdale Quay is just over 60 mins. This is using the SeaBus and the 44 express bus. With SeaBus, Canada Line, and UBC SkyTrain, the trip would decrease to only 32 mins!

Travel time is a critical factor for a transit line’s success and has much wider reaching effects on regional land use and the psyche of the populace. Studies have shown that a travel time of 40 minutes one way is about the limit to which most people can handle before they begin to change other patterns to bring themselves closer to their school or job, such as switching modes (for example, if a car gets there faster) or moving from their homes.

Originally Posted by jlousa

Good thing I passed math, Paul's numbers are wrong and he needs to fix them before others grab onto to them and mock him

30km in 39min is not 1.3K/min it's .77Km/min for Expo
20km in 27 min in not 1.35km/min it's .74km/min for Millenium
14.3 in 25 min is not 1.74/km/min it's only .572 for the Canada line.

So using the expo line numbers his 16min now becomes 27mins, still a savings but nowhere near what his math suggested.


It's about the Math stupid ---- Ferris Wheeler Hater 2010

Originally Posted by deasine

Yeah it's way too fast. TransLink estimated SkyTrain will ~ 25 minutes to UBC from Commercial FYI

Hold on to your horses you guys. I believe Paul wants to calculate it based on the unit min/km as opposed to km/min. So it's how long it takes to go one kilometre of distance. So if you take 39min for 30km on the E-Line, it's 1.3min/km, meaning that it takes 1.3min to travel 1 km of distance on the E-Line. As a result, since the distance between VCC-Clark station and UBC is around 12km, based on the trip times on the E-Line, you take 1.3min/km x 12km = 15.6min!!! (remember, km unit is canceled out in this equation)

I think his calculations are reasonable. It's just that he got the units reversed.

This is the most eloquent commentary about the UBC Line I've read so far. Simple but effective!! Just makes so much sense, if you think about all this strategically, in the big picture (Like a general reading over the map for battle plans).

Yeah, I think the time it takes to go to UBC from Richmond-Brighouse via C-Line and the Broadway M-Line is just about right, with the time to walk from the C-Line to the M-Line platform at Broadway-City Hall. It's really a great alternative to the slow-as-molasses 480 (I drove about 90% of the time when I went to UBC in 2002-2007, because of this and the 20-30min frequency for the 403 back in the day), which currently takes 45-60min from end to end depending on traffic. Definitely would've taken regularly transit if M-Line to UBC existed then. Remember, driving from Richmond Centre to UBC via Arthur Laing and SW Marine Dr. takes around 25-30min without traffic and can go up to 45min during rush hour with traffic backlog on Russ Baker and SW Marine at Blenheim.

Also, don't forget that this Broadway rapid transit link will greatly benefit the ridership for the C-Line too, because it'll be a totally viable alternative to go to the airport via Skytrain, especially for residents living in the Tri-Cities, North Burnaby and the Vancouver west side, since they can all take the extended M-Line and then a transfer to the C-Line at Broadway-City Hall.

[mr.x]

^ they are going to need a ton more cars for the Canada Line when the extension is done...I can see a 50,000 passenger increase on the Canada Line after the Millennium extension opens.

[CLC]

Originally Posted by mr.x

^ they are going to need a ton more cars for the Canada Line when the extension is done...I can see a 50,000 passenger increase on the Canada Line after the Millennium extension opens.

It can't be true! 105000 (as of now) + 50000 = 155000, many "experts" questioned the 142000 predicted boardings by 2021

[jsbertram]

Just doing some noodling around on Google Earth and the Translink Bus Planner.

Commercial @ Broadway to UBC loop is 13.2 KM by 99 B-Line

The running times for the 99 B-Line between Commercial @ Broadway to UBC loop on a weekday range from a low of 30 minutes (after 22:00) to a high of 39 minutes (12:00 to 16:00), with a range from 36 to 39 Minutes between 8:00 and 18:00.

A surprise to me was that some of the Translink Bus Planner suggestions were to take the Millennium train to VCC (from Commercial @ Broadway) and then the 84 on 4th Ave to UBC loop. This is likely because of the higher congestion on Broadway between 8:00 and 18:00, which makes the Millennium + 84 run 5 to 7 minutes faster then the 99 at the same time.


Adjusting to start at VCC & match the proposed route along Broadway, the route gets shortened to 12.9 KM. This is the same distance whether we're talking LRT / Streetcar / Tram on surface or Skytrain underground. This is the same distance from Nanaimo Stn to Columbia Stn, and according to Skytrain's timetables, that takes 18 minutes and passes through 9 stations - which is conveniently the same number of stations that a UBC Skytrain or LRT / Streetcar / Tram would have (VCC; Main-Kingsway; Cambie; Oak; Granville; Arbutus; Alma; Blanca and UBC Loop).

so:

99 B-Line takes 30 to 39 minutes to travel 13.2 KM (including stops);
20.3 to 26.4 KM per Hr; or
2.2 to 2.9 Minutes per KM

UBC Skytrain would take 18 minutes to travel 12.9 KM (including stops);
43 KM per Hr; or
1.4 Minutes per KM

Essentially Skytrain is easily twice as fast as the 99 B-Line.

I haven't seen any useful data on a LRT / Streetcar / Tram on Broadway, but even with dedicated lanes, it still has to interact with the street traffic. It may also get green light priority, but I wouldn't expect the running time to save more than 4 or 5 minutes over the 99 B-Line. I would expect an LRT to replace the 99 B-Line as the ‘express’ service, but the 9 trolly would remain as the ’local’ service along Broadway.

UBC LRT would take 25 to 35 minutes to travel 12.9 KM (including stops);
22.1 to 30.9 KM per Hr; or
1.9 to 2.7 Minutes per KM


What some people seem to be advocating is a Broadway tram that has more stops than an LRT - thinking that a tram can replace the 99 B-line and the 9 along Broadway. The problem with this is by adding more stops like a bus (effectively every 2nd block) you've now added a .5 to .75 minutes per stop to the running time.

Lets see some numbers:
UBC loop is the W 6000 block, VCC is E 1100 block, and Commercial is E 1700 block.

UBC to VCC is 71 blocks, so adding a tram stop every other block is 25 new stops (I'm excluding the 9 stops that are already included in the LRT calcs), so you’re adding 12.5 to 18.75 minutes to the running time of an LRT.

UBC Tram from Glen would take 37 to 53 minutes to travel 12.9 KM (including stops);
14.6 to 20.9 KM per Hr; or
2.8 to 4.1 Minutes per KM

From the Translink Bus Planner, a 9 UBC trolleybus from Glen Dr to UBC takes 38 to 50 minutes during a weekday to travel 12.9 KM (including stops);
15.4 to 20.3 KM per Hr; or
2.9 to 3.8 Minutes per KM

UBC to Commercial is 77 blocks, so adding a tram stop every other block is 29 new stops (I'm also excluding the 9 LRT stops already in the LRT calculation), so you’re adding 14.5 to 21.75 minutes to the LRT running time.

UBC Tram from Commercial would take 39 to 56 minutes to travel 13.2 KM (including stops);
14.4 to 20.3 KM per Hr; or
2.9 to 4.2 Minutes per KM

What this appears to show is that a UBC Tram at best would be 5 minutes faster than a trolleybus, and at worst could be 2 minutes slower than a trolleybus on the same route.


What I'm seeing from these numbers is that LRT / Streetcar / Tram can be at most 10 minutes faster (depending on Broadway traffic congestion) than the 99 B-line, but UBC SkyTrain can be at least 15 minutes faster than the 99 B-Line.


What is also being missed in these discussions is that as Broadway gets more congested over the years, the buses and LRT / Streetcar / Tram running on Broadway itself will get slower, while a Skytrain running underground would always run at its best possible speed regardless of congestion or gridlock on Broadway or the cross-streets.


Moving Broadway transit passengers to Skytrain many have the added benefit of less congestion in the Broadway corridor for a while because the 99 B-Line buses are gone, and perhaps fewer 9 trollybuses many be needed.

GO FULL BORE!

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by CLC

It can't be true! 105000 (as of now) + 50000 = 155000, many "experts" questioned the 142000 predicted boardings by 2021

lolll...I think 50,000 is a pretty realistic number for the Canada Line increase.


Millennium Line to UBC and Evergreen Line to UBC
- total: 200,000/day?
- perhaps I could be underestimating this 200,000 figure...as you all may well know, I have been a huge critic of the Canada Line's capacity but I never ever imagined that we'd go past the 100,000 figure in less than a year. I had estimated that the Canada Line would start with 70,000, and that it would take 2-years to reach 100,000.
- the c.2000 City of Vancouver report on a Millennium SkyTrain extension to Arbutus (with rapid bus from Arbutus to UBC) had ridership pegged at 150,000....

Canada Line
- 50,000/day increase from UBC extension...Broadway-City Hall won't be pretty
- ridership increase from: 1) Canada Line corridor quick access to Broadway rapid transit rail/new transit riders; 2) faster commute time to Broadway corridor destinations (UBC!) compared to other modes of transit
- if today's ridership is already at 105000, it'll easily be 140,000 by 2020....the Canada Line could be looking at a potential ~200,000/day if the UBC extension opens by 2020.
- 83,000/day in September 2009; 93,000/day in December 2009; and 105,000/day in March 2010....with school ending, the increases should slow down a bit until September comes around.

Expo Line
- hard to give a number, but there's no doubt there would be a substantial increase in ridership on the Expo Line as well

[huenthar]

Originally Posted by The_Henry_Man

Hold on to your horses you guys. I believe Paul wants to calculate it based on the unit min/km as opposed to km/min. So it's how long it takes to go one kilometre of distance. So if you take 39min for 30km on the E-Line, it's 1.3min/km, meaning that it takes 1.3min to travel 1 km of distance on the E-Line. As a result, since the distance between VCC-Clark station and UBC is around 12km, based on the trip times on the E-Line, you take 1.3min/km x 12km = 15.6min!!! (remember, km unit is canceled out in this equation)

Both the Expo and Millennium Lines average 44-45 km/h operational speed right now (including stops and everything). Moreover, Evergeen Line is estimated at 13 minutes for its 11 km's (faster, but it has fewer stops). So there's no reason the Broadway line would be any slower than those averages ie. 13km in 17 minutes. Yours and Henry's times are right.

Don't know how Translink would ever estimate 20-something minutes. That's significantly slower than SkyTrain speeds today...

[Canadian Mind]

More stops along Broadway?

[CLC]

Originally Posted by Canadian Mind

More stops along Broadway?

or more stopping time per station (45 seconds on average?) Translink may have high expectation for ridership all along the route.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by CLC

or more stopping time per station (45 seconds on average?) Translink may have high expectation for ridership all along the route.

45-secs is a bit too long....


Commercial: 35-secs
Finning: 15-secs
Main Street: 25-secs
Cambie: 35-secs
Oak/VGH: 20-secs
Granville: 25-secs
Arbutus: 20-secs
Macdonald: 20-secs
Alma: 20-secs
Sasamat: 20-secs



Also, while in Asia I noticed that drawing line up lines and arrows on the platform floors for the train doors make all the difference. They have a 45 degree line for the line up for the train door on the right of the door and another 45 degree line on the left for those that are exiting the train.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by deasine

From what I know, they are considering a separate technology, but that really defeats one of the advantages of RRT in the first place, which was to eliminate the transfer. Remember though, these are just random ideas on the table.

Too bad there was no rough budget estimate with these. Actually that and a rough construction time estimate would be great tools for comparison. Of course they'd have to be non-biased and realistic.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by cabotp

It doesn't make sense now because VCC-Clark is already built.

They might be thinking of having a Branch just after Commercial. One line goes right under Broadway to go to UBC. The other would go to VCC-Clark and then possibly to Finning and just end there. Not that I support this

Just because there's a station there doesn't mean any new line has to start from that station. I'm not suggesting it's valid in this case, but admitting you made a $100m(?) dollar mistake running the line to VCC rather than straight west from Commercial is fine if you're contemplating another $3b extension...

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by huenthar

Both the Expo and Millennium Lines average 44-45 km/h operational speed right now (including stops and everything). Moreover, Evergeen Line is estimated at 13 minutes for its 11 km's (faster, but it has fewer stops). So there's no reason the Broadway line would be any slower than those averages ie. 13km in 17 minutes. Yours and Henry's times are right.

Don't know how Translink would ever estimate 20-something minutes. That's significantly slower than SkyTrain speeds today...

I rechecked TransLink Trip Planner.
Nanaimo to Columbia is 18 Minutes through 9 stations in 13 KMs.
This is similar to the planned VCC to UBC line, so I've revised my previous message to update these numbers.

This works out to 43 KM/Hr, making it even better when compared to 99 B-Line and Trams/ Streetcars/ LRTs.

[WarrenC12]

VCC to UBC in anything under 20 mins would be incredible. Add travel times to the list of things to compare.

[jsbertram]

If it was run completely under 10th Ave from Fraser to Blanca, there's no curves it has to negotiate other than the jog it needs to make at Pr. Edward St.

With a 'straight shot' from Fraser to UBC, the trains could run at a higher speed between stations resulting in even lower travel times.

Perhaps even as quick as 15 minutes?
or even quicker?

Even though there wouldn't be any curves along the way, it will still have to rise and fall with the local geography, so we wouldn't want to be rolling so fast we'd feel like we're riding the peaks and valleys of the PNE rollercoaster.