Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by OhioGuy

I thought it had been talked about before here on SSP about the possibility of constructing the line under 10th Ave? (or was it 8th Ave?) That way the cheaper cut & cover approach could be used without severly disrupting the businesses on Broadway? Is that being considered?

CoV council has decided no Cut and Cover for Broadway Corridor rapid transit.
They learned their lesson with the fiasco of the Cambie St tunnels.

It was reveled in the Hazel & Co. court case that Cut and Cover vs. TBM tunneling were within a few percentage points of cost, but Cut and Cover was chosen for Cambie because it allowed for construction in six areas simultaneously - guaranteeing that Canada line would be open for the Olympics. In fact, it opened in mid-August 2009, rather than December as was originally planned.

Because the TBM method requires a linear method of construction, any problems with completing the tunnel bores will delay later parts of the construction - stations, track laying, signals, testing &tc. Some cities have actually had two TBMs running at the same time - one creating the 'inbound' tube, the other creating the 'outbound' tube with the first one starting a few months ahead of the second. Nothing like a little rivalry between the two TBM crews to get their tunnels built (perhaps ahead of schedule and under budget too). I remember that the Chunnel was built using six main tunnels - three from France and three from England that met under the channel, and used 11 different TBM machines for the construction.

However, when a TBM tunnel is built with no major complications, it can be as fast or faster than Cut and Cover tunneling, with much less impact on the surface (where people will notice whats happening, and the inconvenience).

[paradigm4]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

However, when a TBM tunnel is built with no major complications, it can be as fast or faster than Cut and Cover tunneling, with much less impact on the surface (where people will notice whats happening, and the inconvenience).

Isn't TBM way more expensive than cut and cover? I thought that was the reason behind the decision ultimately. InTransitBC was under contract to keep within its budget, but there was no tunnelling specifications. So, to keep costs down, they switched from the planned TBM to CAC. I might be completely off here, but that was my perception.

[Vonny]

Originally Posted by Vonny

as you have seen, keeping civil and polite doesn't prevent your comment as well as others to be discarded as soon as they try to challenge to directly Patrick Condon or Zweisystem numbers on the http://www.livableregion.ca blog

That is unfortunate, and I believe people need to be aware of those less than commendable method of debating.

for the record, I have voiced my opinion on it directly on the concerned blog:
...

another day, at the livablefascism blog, another "troll" attack which has been fought without mercy:

see by yourself:




that is a copyrighted troll, but he is certainly right and this one from yesterday:



but may be the "greatest troll" is here:




you can read the complete message in the comment section of
Frances Bula blog or
HumanTransit blog

of course, that is only a sample of comments I got chance to make a screen capture before they disappears

Once again, it is tale telling to see the world according to the Skytrain opponents at work.

[Canadian Mind]

bigger images dude, I can't read the last two.

[mr.x]

Why we don't need SkyTrain to UBC:


"In the not too distant future students will be able to attend virtual reality classes from home."



http://www.livableregion.ca/blog/blogs/i...rapid_transit_alternatives_lack#comments




I have to say that recently I haven't been following the whole Broadway transit debate at all, so taking in all of this now is absolutely entertaining.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by paradigm4

Isn't TBM way more expensive than cut and cover? I thought that was the reason behind the decision ultimately. InTransitBC was under contract to keep within its budget, but there was no tunnelling specifications. So, to keep costs down, they switched from the planned TBM to CAC. I might be completely off here, but that was my perception.

The rest of his post indicates the ongoing court case has revealed cut and cover to be only a few % higher. Maybe it was done poorly. Well, we know it was.

TBM appears to be the only option for Broadway. I don't have a problem with that.

[racc]

UBC students call for rapid transit line to Point Grey campus
http://www.straight.com/article-319528/v...all-rapid-transit-line-point-grey-campus

There is a poll in the article. Any of you UBC students might want to talk to the AMS to make sure they support SkyTrain.

[deasine]

Got back from the workshop and there is no additional information with regards to what we already know, but I really like to stress on the fact that TransLink knows there are other blogs and discussion forums out there (i.e. this one), but will not be really reading through the suggestions. So for one, I highly suggest you guys register an account at TransLink's forum and give your input there in addition to attending one of the workshops if you can.

It's also important to note that at the UBC discussion, one of the key points is that a RRT + BRT should be considered as a plan or phasing construction method and that not only UBC Square, but other parts of the University (i.e. South Campus, Wesbrook Village, etc.), should be considered especially since UBC is planning to increase the amount of housing (market and student) within the university.

I'll go into further detail later.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Basically, my map was a comment that, if the Combined Option is selected (i.e. the phasing with a future LRT is a done decision), they shouldn't use the streetcar RoW, instead they should take the LRT line over Granville Bridge - on the surface - into the downtown. If buses are kept on Howe and Seymour, then LRT trains in-street on Granville may be feasible.
It would be nice to preserve the possibility to extend SkyTrain incrementally to UBC, but if the political pressure is too high, that SkyTrain money can be spent in Surrey.

As jbertram envisages, I also see the streetcar as a local service feeding into the rapid transit services.
However, having a downtown tunnel for the streetcar mixes modes a bit - since a tunnel would mean fewer stations, moving away from the local stop service typical of a streetcar service.
In terms of an LRT downtown on Granville - it's a straight line run down one street that is capacity compromised anyways due to the transit mall (and buses can be moved off the street to provide more reliability for the LRT trains) and I doubt that block length (vs length of trains) would be an issue (like it would be on short sides of the blocks).

My thoughts are that having a streetcar running in a Burrard St. Subway would have the same stops as the old 98 BLine - Waterfront; West Convention Centre; Bentall Centre; Alberni (with entrances on Georgia and Robson); Nelson; Davie; Pacific(?); under false creek to Arbutus Corridor.

The buses on Burrard would remain to stop every block or two, and people could hop a bus to the nearest Streetcar station. I see people making short hops on Robson quite often ie: from Burrard to Granville. I don't care if they are then jumping on Skytrain at Granville, but the Robson / Davie buses are doing what they do best: get people around the westend, or between the westend and the rest of the city. Burrard buses could do the same by getting some people to the nearest subway station.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by paradigm4

Now that's a good idea! Better than the Millennium Line shuttle service between Columbia and Lougheed that TransLink was previously looking at.

Just got myself thinking this further.

If Columbia had a 3rd platform for terminating trains, then 1/3 of the UBC-to-PoCo W-E trains could be sent to Columbia (Lougheed - Braid - Sapperton - Columbia terminal) and then reverse back to join the W-E mainline at Lougheed.

With 1/3 of the Expo trains terminating at Lougheed via Sapperton and Braid, and 1/3 of the Millenium trains terminating at Columbia via Braid and Sapperton, Braid and Sapperton may have more trains than necessary. If that's the case, then they can have 1/4 of the regular trains instead. Perhaps these can be run during rush-hour only, and then have Lougheed - Columbia shuttles during the rest of the day.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

Couldn't agree more. When we have frequencies of around 3 minutes (or less) the transfers take less time than waiting for the right train if they were interlined. IE: you have a 3 minute max transfer, but a 6 minute max wait for the right train. Also, so many people just don't understand the interlining on the Millennium line to this day and I still see people at Granville not get on a VCC bound train because they believe it won't stop at Metrotown.

There will be a large number of people who will either transfer to the Millennium line or stay on it if it continued through to the Canada Line. While overall ridership will increase, it would be possible to keep ridership between Commercial and Main pretty steady as the increase in people riding through to Canada Line (to transfer going north or south) would increase drastically. It would really relieve the pressure on that section of the Expo Line.

As well, just like on the Expo line, shuttles could be run to Broadway on the Canada Line to help with this increase of people using "the back door".

The switches are right there at City Hall (someone planning the lay of the track probably thought of this very situation because they could have easily built the switch at Olympic Village or on the other side of Broadway). Trains could enter the station from downtown on the "inbound platform" and then head back out using the switch to change direction.

That would also be very handy if the Expo line had to close due an "incident" somewhere downtown. All passengers could be transfered to the Millennium line and extra Canada Line shuttles could be used to ferry people in/out of downtown. It would add a huge layer of redundency to our system where a track closure almost anywhere on the line would slow, but not grind our system to a halt.

I just shake my head when someone WON'T get on a C-Line YVR train because they think only the Brighouse trains stop at Oakridge.

OK Fine.
more room for me!
Buh-Bye ...

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by racc

UBC Line Open Houses

Thurs. Apr. 22 UBC Student Union Bldg., 2nd floor Party Room
Tues. May 4 St James Community Square, 3214 W. 10th Ave.
Thurs. May 6 West Point Grey United Church, 4595 W. 8th Ave.
Tues. May 11 Centre for Digital Media, 122 – 577 Great Northern Way
Thurs. May 13 Vancouver Masonic Centre 1495 W. 8th Ave.

All sessions run from 6 – 9pm.

Do they not realize that some of us actually work the afternoon shift and would not be able to attend these open houses at these times.

We all don't work 9-5 M-F.

Originally Posted by jsbertram

I just shake my head when someone WON'T get on a C-Line YVR train because they think only the Brighouse trains stop at Oakridge.

OK Fine.
more room for me!
Buh-Bye ...

I have a simple name for those people. Suckers

[idunno]

TransLink looks at rapid transit options for Broadway corridor

By TIFFANY CRAWFORD, Vancouver SunApril 22, 2010Comments (61)

VANCOUVER - Vancouver could see the return of the streetcar as TransLink considers options to improve rapid transit along the Broadway corridor to the University of B.C.

The regional transit authority is holding a series of discussions, which began Thursday and continue through mid-May, to seek public opinion on the UBC Line Rapid Transit Study.

Study options include extending the SkyTrain underground along Broadway or building a streetcar line like the one used during the Olympics.

Among the six options are three different technologies: rapid buses, with dedicated lanes; light rail, like the streetcar, which would run at ground level; and SkyTrain, the fastest option, but also the most expensive to build.

The study is looking at various routes. Proposed ideas include a streetcar line along the south side of False Creek, and a combination SkyTrain extension and light rail, which would run as a SkyTrain from Commercial-Broadway Station to Arbutus, where it would connect with light rail to UBC.

The rapid bus service would run from the Commercial-Broadway SkyTrain station to UBC via Broadway and West 10th Avenue.

Broadway business owners are in favour of a streetcar, with many opposing the construction of a SkyTrain.

“This is a very special area and we feel in order to keep the character the best option would be the streetcar,” said Nick Panos of the West Broadway Business Association.

Panos, who is from Greece, said streetcars are a familiar sight in Athens and people love the European feel of hopping on and off of them.

“I think it will attract more tourists and people from other areas because it is pleasant. It is the structure of it. It is lower to the street. You can get on at one corner and get off at the next corner. It creates a more homey atmosphere.”

Donna Dobo, owner of the Just Imagine clothing store on Broadway, said she has worked in the area for 22 years.

But she said she would probably move if a tunnel — like the one dug for the Canada Line along Cambie Street — were built under Broadway.

“I am definitely opposed to driverless technology like the Canada Line and it is not appropriate for the 12 kilometre route to UBC. It is ten times more expensive,” said Dobo.

TransLink has not released a cost analysis for each of the options.

Dobo said it takes about three weeks to build the rails for a tram and four years for an underground SkyTrain. “A light, modern European style tram is the way to go,” she said.

Panos said there should be compensation for business owners during construction if officials go ahead with an underground SkyTrain.

Cambie Street merchants are involved in a class-action lawsuit for damages arising from the Canada Line construction.

The owners claim that the decision to use a cut-and-cover construction method instead of a bored tunnel resulted problems that hurt businesses.

More information is available at www.bepartoftheplan.ca.

[email protected]
© Copyright (c) The Vancouver Sun

http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/Trans...ons+Broadway+corridor/2940318/story.html



Although the article is clearly leaning towards "streetcar" almost all of the comments below were strongly in favour of Skytrain. Good news I guess?

[twoNeurons]

Many of these "other" cities where there are lots of transfers typically will build or will plan to build a loop that connects their lines. Moscow, London, Berlin, Paris... they all have loops.

Vancouver's geography doesn't work the same way. It's more like a micro-Manhattan.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Many of these "other" cities where there are lots of transfers typically will build or will plan to build a loop that connects their lines. Moscow, London, Berlin, Paris... they all have loops.

Vancouver's geography doesn't work the same way. It's more like a micro-Manhattan.

or perhaps "VANhatten" ?

We may not be able to get a circle line, but at least we can have the 'lazy horseshoe' layout of the Downtown Streetcar (Stanley Park, Waterfront, Gastown, Science World, Granville Island). This line connects most of the touristy places, it gives many people living or working in the downtown/false creek area an alternative to buses, and also connects to the Seabus, SkyTrain and West Coast Express.

[CLC]

Originally Posted by idunno

Although the article is clearly leaning towards "streetcar" almost all of the comments below were strongly in favour of Skytrain. Good news I guess?

While "streetcar" and LRT are quite the same thing, but in North America transportation agency ( Translink) did classify them differently, these newspaper article should use the correct term to avoid more confusing to reader.

[WBC]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

We may not be able to get a circle line, but at least we can have the 'lazy horseshoe' layout of the Downtown Streetcar (Stanley Park, Waterfront, Gastown, Science World, Granville Island). This line connects most of the touristy places, it gives many people living or working in the downtown/false creek area an alternative to buses, and also connects to the Seabus, SkyTrain and West Coast Express.

Sure we can - we can have a circle with a center in Metrotown ;-)

Ah to dream

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by WBC

Sure we can - we can have a circle with a center in Metrotown ;-)

Ah to dream

So we can all avoid Metrotown? Good idea. :-)

[Canadian Mind]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Many of these "other" cities where there are lots of transfers typically will build or will plan to build a loop that connects their lines. Moscow, London, Berlin, Paris... they all have loops.

Vancouver's geography doesn't work the same way. It's more like a micro-Manhattan.

And should be developed as such. Yes there are dozens of coloured lines, but each coloured line is anywhere between 3 and 7 different lines that are all interlined and go to different places, and all but a select few lines don't cross eachother at somepoint. This makes for a one-transfer ride anywhere in the city despite it's population being atleast 10 times the size of Vancouvers.

I know the map looks overwhelming and complex, but test the theory:



Why don't we aim to do the same here as the region developes? Interlining trains to minimise transfers now so that in 30-40 years when we have a spider-web looking transit map like this, everything is still a reasonable single transfer to get to all major destinations, and 2 to get to more minor ones.

[Zassk]

^ But our rapid transit system IS single-transfer to anywhere... or it will be as soon as M-Line meets the C-Line. We don't need complicated loops through False Creek Flats or Gastown or English Bay to achieve this.