Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by cabotp

While the idea is nice. My biggest concern, assuming they built both lines at the same time. Is that we have now locked ourselves into having an LRT line west of Arbutus. Without having any idea if that would cause a problem with ridership.

Assuming we can't afford to build skytrain to UBC. It would probably be better to build it to Arbutus. But don't build the LRT line to UBC. Wait 5 years and see what ridership is like. Although on your map we could build the line from Downtown and south along Arbutus.

Originally Posted by OhioGuy

I'd rather see Skytrain to UBC and the LRT along Arbutus, but descending into a subway alongside Pennyfarthing Drive and traveling up Burrard Street through downtown rather than sticking it in the same subway as the Canada Line.

Basically, my map was a comment that, if the Combined Option is selected (i.e. the phasing with a future LRT is a done decision), they shouldn't use the streetcar RoW, instead they should take the LRT line over Granville Bridge - on the surface - into the downtown. If buses are kept on Howe and Seymour, then LRT trains in-street on Granville may be feasible.
It would be nice to preserve the possibility to extend SkyTrain incrementally to UBC, but if the political pressure is too high, that SkyTrain money can be spent in Surrey.

As jbertram envisages, I also see the streetcar as a local service feeding into the rapid transit services.
However, having a downtown tunnel for the streetcar mixes modes a bit - since a tunnel would mean fewer stations, moving away from the local stop service typical of a streetcar service.
In terms of an LRT downtown on Granville - it's a straight line run down one street that is capacity compromised anyways due to the transit mall (and buses can be moved off the street to provide more reliability for the LRT trains) and I doubt that block length (vs length of trains) would be an issue (like it would be on short sides of the blocks).

[paradigm4]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

I can already hear the cries of "what about Braid and Sapperton?"
1/3 of the Expo trains can have Lougheed Station as their terminal, where the train heads to Lougheed instead of Scott Road after leaving Columbia. This can be done because the unfinished 3rd platform at Lougheed can be completed and used as the terminal platform. These Expo trains terminating at Lougheed will return to Braid and Sapperton, and re-join the Expo 'mainline' at Columbia where they continue their journey to Vancouver.

If there was a 3rd platform at Columbia that could be used, it would be easy to implement a Lougheed - Columbia shuttle as a connector between the diagonal Expo line and the horizontal Millennium line.

Now that's a good idea! Better than the Millennium Line shuttle service between Columbia and Lougheed that TransLink was previously looking at.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by Zassk

I"m surprised at all of the effort being expended on this thread to try to eliminate transfers. Transfers are a fact of life in a rapid transit network, and I don't see why we should make the system hopelessly complicated just to eliminate them. The first priority should be to make the network easily understood in order to encourage as many people to try the system as possible; the only way to make it easily understood is to completely segregate the system into three distinct lines.

After the UBC line is built, I'm sure many Expo riders will happily transfer twice in order to get onto Canada Line without going downtown. People in other big-metro cities do multiple transfers routinely, and they tend to have much worse frequencies than we are blessed with. Of all cities, transfers are the least problematic for us thanks to our terrific frequencies. Some people who are spoiled with the current interlining will have to give up their seat and transfer; but rather than make the system convoluted in order to let them keep their seat, we should focus on making their transfer as efficient as possible.

And to follow on with this thought, the best way to funnel Millennium passengers into downtown IS to put as many of them as possible on the Canada Line. It's silly to contemplate a new Millennium track split to downtown or yet False Creek crossing, when we have a 1-year-old tunnel just built that has tons of capacity. Spend ~$500 million or so to connect Millennium Line to that tunnel, and reduce Expo Line's load that way.

Couldn't agree more. When we have frequencies of around 3 minutes (or less) the transfers take less time than waiting for the right train if they were interlined. IE: you have a 3 minute max transfer, but a 6 minute max wait for the right train. Also, so many people just don't understand the interlining on the Millennium line to this day and I still see people at Granville not get on a VCC bound train because they believe it won't stop at Metrotown.

There will be a large number of people who will either transfer to the Millennium line or stay on it if it continued through to the Canada Line. While overall ridership will increase, it would be possible to keep ridership between Commercial and Main pretty steady as the increase in people riding through to Canada Line (to transfer going north or south) would increase drastically. It would really relieve the pressure on that section of the Expo Line.

As well, just like on the Expo line, shuttles could be run to Broadway on the Canada Line to help with this increase of people using "the back door".

The switches are right there at City Hall (someone planning the lay of the track probably thought of this very situation because they could have easily built the switch at Olympic Village or on the other side of Broadway). Trains could enter the station from downtown on the "inbound platform" and then head back out using the switch to change direction.

That would also be very handy if the Expo line had to close due an "incident" somewhere downtown. All passengers could be transfered to the Millennium line and extra Canada Line shuttles could be used to ferry people in/out of downtown. It would add a huge layer of redundency to our system where a track closure almost anywhere on the line would slow, but not grind our system to a halt.

[racc]

A posting on CBC:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbi...ancouver-ubc-broadway-rapid-transit.html

[racc]

UBC Line Open Houses

Thurs. Apr. 22 UBC Student Union Bldg., 2nd floor Party Room
Tues. May 4 St James Community Square, 3214 W. 10th Ave.
Thurs. May 6 West Point Grey United Church, 4595 W. 8th Ave.
Tues. May 11 Centre for Digital Media, 122 – 577 Great Northern Way
Thurs. May 13 Vancouver Masonic Centre 1495 W. 8th Ave.

All sessions run from 6 – 9pm.

[TransitJack]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

.

As well, just like on the Expo line, shuttles could be run to Broadway on the Canada Line to help with this increase of people using "the back door".

The switches are right there at City Hall (someone planning the lay of the track probably thought of this very situation because they could have easily built the switch at Olympic Village or on the other side of Broadway). Trains could enter the station from downtown on the "inbound platform" and then head back out using the switch to change direction.

Actually the Olympic village is bored tunnel on the north side and Broadway station goes to stacked configuration just south of the station so where the x over is located is really the only place it could have been between Oakridge and downtown.

Though not a bad idea (heck it works for Expo line) I also think any "shuttles" would have to be renegotiated in the contract as the C line is paid based on performance from endpoint to endpoint.

[Canadian Mind]

Originally Posted by Zassk

I"m surprised at all of the effort being expended on this thread to try to eliminate transfers. Transfers are a fact of life in a rapid transit network, and I don't see why we should make the system hopelessly complicated just to eliminate them. The first priority should be to make the network easily understood in order to encourage as many people to try the system as possible; the only way to make it easily understood is to completely segregate the system into three distinct lines.

After the UBC line is built, I'm sure many Expo riders will happily transfer twice in order to get onto Canada Line without going downtown. People in other big-metro cities do multiple transfers routinely, and they tend to have much worse frequencies than we are blessed with. Of all cities, transfers are the least problematic for us thanks to our terrific frequencies. Some people who are spoiled with the current interlining will have to give up their seat and transfer; but rather than make the system convoluted in order to let them keep their seat, we should focus on making their transfer as efficient as possible.

And to follow on with this thought, the best way to funnel Millennium passengers into downtown IS to put as many of them as possible on the Canada Line. It's silly to contemplate a new Millennium track split to downtown or yet False Creek crossing, when we have a 1-year-old tunnel just built that has tons of capacity. Spend ~$500 million or so to connect Millennium Line to that tunnel, and reduce Expo Line's load that way.

Other big Metro cities also have far more lines, and far more places to go, thus requiring more transfers. If everyone can have a 1 seat ride to the two arguably biggest transit destinations in the metro (Downtown and Broadway corridor) without too much hassel, why not give it to them? Why give people more transfers now then you have too?

The way it is right now, the average commuter from surrey, to get to richmond, has a commute pattern of bus-train-train-bus (not everyone lives right beside the station). with completion of the Evergreen Line, it would be bus-train-train-train-bus.

For me, taking 2 buses and 2 trains is really a non-issue, but I can see how 3 trains could start to become a pain, especially at peak periods where some trains are going to be overcrouded. It's a pain in the ass getting on and off a fully loaded train. Why so may people continue to choose to drive.

And whether you have to wait 3 minutes for a train when you transfer, or 5, there is still that perception of time loss. Not everyone on earth is scientific in deciding which meathod of commute is fastest for them (ie. stopwatch, pen and paper), and most will take the route they percieve to be the fastest, which means less stops and less waiting for trains or busses.


And another thing, if commutters are too missinformed to know that both the Expo and Millenium Line trains will take them from Downtown to Metrotown (on the same stretch of track no less), how the hell do you expect them to be able to piece together transfers? Especially 2 or more?

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by TransitJack

Actually the Olympic village is bored tunnel on the north side and Broadway station goes to stacked configuration just south of the station so where the x over is located is really the only place it could have been between Oakridge and downtown.

Though not a bad idea (heck it works for Expo line) I also think any "shuttles" would have to be renegotiated in the contract as the C line is paid based on performance from endpoint to endpoint.

Because it was designed that way. God didn't plop down the tunnels and we had to put the switch in the only location it would fit. We could have moved the Village station pit back 50m and put switches in there, or started the stacked track a bit later. We didn't build the tunnels then put in switches where after the fact there was room. There's a reason to their madness.

And I think there are performance conditions in the contract already. If too many people start to get passed up downtown or at City Hall because of transfers with the UBC line, it would probably impact payments. Running a shuttle to get rid of waits would be the cheapest option to the P3 to maintain performance.

[nname]

Originally Posted by Canadian Mind

The way it is right now, the average commuter from surrey, to get to richmond, has a commute pattern of bus-train-train-bus (not everyone lives right beside the station). with completion of the Evergreen Line, it would be bus-train-train-train-bus.

Its not that the Expo or Canada Line would terminate at Broadway when M-Line extension opens. They can still do the bus-train-train-bus transfer if they still wants to.

I think the long term SOF plan is to have 4 direct bus routes linking Surrey and Richmond so people won't need to take skytrain and go through Vancouver. In fact, 2 of them are already running (301 and the peak-only 311). Its just a personal preference as they isn't forced to take the longer or the more transfer routes. Just like how I usually take the bus-train-train-bus-bus-bus route instead of the direct bus-bus route just to save a few minutes off my trip

[vangirl3]

Gordon Price is going to be on the radio show "on the coast" cbc 690am at some point before 6pm today to discuss the options. The CBC announcer, talking about the feedback on their website, said that people are pretty much divided between the 'skytrain option' and the 'streetcar' option. Has the LRT portion been confirmed as 'streetcar' or are people just assuming that based on the Olympic streetcar demo?

[trofirhen]

The issue of time lost and inconvenience incurred when transgerring to another subway line very largely depends on the DESIGN of the stations.
In Paris, there are a lot of lines and a lot of stations very close together.

However, it is often necessary to change lines. The Paris Métro is, alas, designed in such a way that you often have to walk along long corridors, up stairways, along another corridor, and up or down more stairs or escalators to change trains. THIS is the most time consuming element of travel on the Paris Métro.

The London Undeground, on the other hand, is designed in such a way that the lines at intersecting stations are "tight" and close together. In fact, changing lines often means simply crosing over to another platform.

The premise here obvously is that if the transfers are well-designed, without a lot of long walkways and stairways in the labyrinthine Parisian style, transferring trains does not present a great hassle or loss of time.

And as much of the system is not yet built, Vancouver has the opportunity to build tight, efficacious transfer points at multi-line stations.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by Canadian Mind

And another thing, if commutters are too missinformed to know that both the Expo and Millenium Line trains will take them from Downtown to Metrotown (on the same stretch of track no less), how the hell do you expect them to be able to piece together transfers? Especially 2 or more?

It's not misinformed, it's the information presented in this case is difficult to digest. Metrotown doesn't sound like it's between Waterfront and VCC Clark. Metrotown IS on the way to Surrey though. Just like many people probably can't tell that downtown is on the way to 29th ave on the #16. Why do the #10 Granville or #16 Arbutus travel down Hastings? If you're new to the situation, it makes no f&#king sense at all.

People are used to traveling in a straight line. Seeing the transfer between 2 straight lines is easier than than trying to follow a looping curving line that mixes in with other lines.


The other thing to keep in mind is that the Broadway line's priority is transporting people into the Broadway Corridor and UBC. Having a rail connection between the Expo Line and the Canada Line is kind of a fringe benefit that completes the network for the minority of trips. The majority of trips will be rather direct with 1 transfer at most.

Most people heading into downtown or central Broadway (the 2 largest destinations for regional travelers) from "the east" will be able to get there with 1 rail transfer. You can go Expo->Millennium->Canada to get downtown, but most people that would use the back door would be people already ON the Millennium line. If you are going Surrey to Richmond, Millennium can be a shortcut, but if they don't like making multiple transfers, they don't need to. The choice is theirs. They can save 5 minutes or take it easy and ride it all the way downtown.

But there is no need to slow down the majority of travelers by having lines go to multiple destinations for the benefit of a rather small percentage of the population.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by racc

A posting on CBC:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbi...ancouver-ubc-broadway-rapid-transit.html

Based on the responses and comments here, the majority seem to overwhelmingly request skytrain rail, grade-separated tecnology along Broadway, although there are other visions, too, including an all-bus system.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by TransitJack

Though not a bad idea (heck it works for Expo line) I also think any "shuttles" would have to be renegotiated in the contract as the C line is paid based on performance from endpoint to endpoint.

Presumably this is equally true of changes on the other lines that involve BCRTC Ltd., or maybe their contract already encompasses such things, but my point is, the presence of a P3 contract doesn't make the C line inherently inflexible.

[TransitJack]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

Because it was designed that way. God didn't plop down the tunnels and we had to put the switch in the only location it would fit. We could have moved the Village station pit back 50m and put switches in there, or started the stacked track a bit later. We didn't build the tunnels then put in switches where after the fact there was room. There's a reason to their madness.

And I think there are performance conditions in the contract already. If too many people start to get passed up downtown or at City Hall because of transfers with the UBC line, it would probably impact payments. Running a shuttle to get rid of waits would be the cheapest option to the P3 to maintain performance.

You misunderstand. I didn't say the xovers magically appears, I simply said they were placed in the only place they could go for this section of the line. I also suggested that their placement was not designed for a shuttle in future, though a shuttle would be possible based on the x over location.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

The premise here obvously is that if the transfers are well-designed, without a lot of long walkways and stairways in the labyrinthine Parisian style, transferring trains does not present a great hassle or loss of time.

And as much of the system is not yet built, Vancouver has the opportunity to build tight, efficacious transfer points at multi-line stations.

I think we are starting to get that right here. Broadway City Hall seems to be very well thought out for the future transfer to an underground Broadway Line. Simply up an escalator from the platform to the mezzanine, then down another set to the platform of your choice.

The original problem is that I don't think that the Expo Line was built like it would be expanded upon and have to transfer anywhere. As such, there is no center island at Columbia (or New West), Broadway-Commercial is a bit far from Millennium (but not too bad), King George is not a center platform (making it an unlikely splitting point in Surrey) and Waterfront station is a bit space confined to have had the Canada Line get any closer than it is. All things considered we sort of lucked out that it's not as bad as it could have been.

[TransitJack]

Originally Posted by Zassk

Presumably this is equally true of changes on the other lines that involve BCRTC Ltd., or maybe their contract already encompasses such things, but my point is, the presence of a P3 contract doesn't make the C line inherently inflexible.

True, but BCRTC is a subsidiary of Translink, Protrans is NOT. Pretty easy to tell the company you own to change, not as easy when you have a complex contract in place with a private company.

Anything is possible, but renegotiation will have a cost..after all SNC/Intransit is there to make money!!!

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by racc

The majority of passengers on the Millennium Line are heading downtown. It really makes sense to design a system where the majority of people do not have to transfer. If not, at some point, they are going have to spend tens of millions to upgrade the ped capacity of the links between the Expo and Millennium lines at Broadway Station.



This was really not the issue I was talking about. It was the overloading of the Expo Line from Broadway to Main that is the issue.

i always thought they should make the m line branch of after commercial drive one goes to VCC and one goes to a new station near homedepot and than the line continues along the tracks north to the waterfront and follows that or some alignment that than meets up at waterfront stationa true loop is formed and a few stations can be added along the way such as strathcona, or east hastings, a few in east gastown etc...

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

i always thought they should make the m line branch of after commercial drive one goes to VCC and one goes to a new station near homedepot and than the line continues along the tracks north to the waterfront and follows that or some alignment that than meets up at waterfront stationa true loop is formed and a few stations can be added along the way such as strathcona, or east hastings, a few in east gastown etc...

I was thinking that if the Skytrain was only going to go as far west as Arbutus (because of NIMBY's in Point Grey or low ridership west of there), why not loop it into Downtown from there under English Bay? Then you don't need to branch it and split up trains. All trains could go Douglas to Waterfront.

That way you get rapid transit access between South Granville, Kits, West End, Coal Harbor and Waterfront, as well as offer Evergreen riders a tranferless trip into downtown (albeit slightly longer). I know people say a rapid transit line through the West End would be a waste of money, but that's they said about putting a station in Yaletown (I believe a lot of people ate their hats on that prediction).

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

I was thinking that if the Skytrain was only going to go as far west as Arbutus (because of NIMBY's in Point Grey or low ridership west of there), why not loop it into Downtown from there under English Bay?

Because that'd be freaking expensive! We could build a lot of underground subway with that money instead. Cambie is really not that far from Arbutus - it's not too much to ask that these people travel east 3.2 km and make a 3-minute transfer to get downtown. Building the system to prevent transfers is just really, really expensive. Why not spend that money on a dedicated subway loop around the downtown peninsula instead, and hit all of the existing highrises and office towers? I doubt that would cost any more than your proposed crossing. Or... novel idea.. spend that money on building the tunnel to UBC.