Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[LeftCoaster]

I chose the skytrain route, for obvious reasons, but I would like to see the final product look something like this:



The thicker lines are skytrain or traffic separated LRT, while the thinner brown lines are streetcar/B-lines. I envision the green Arbutus line running down to SW marine and running along that rail ROW out to New west. Thoughts?

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by Bureaucromancer

Probably somewhere in the railway lands south of Pacific Central.



Yes, thats true, but we're going to be getting light rail of some kind eventually on at least the streetcar portion. For the combined proposal at least this isn't a huge problem. Certainly no more of a complication here than on the C-Line, and probably less problematic in the long term; C-Line is going to be great fun when vehicle replacement comes around.*

I voted for Skytrain all the way, but whatever the combo proposal is, it isn't idiotic system design on the order of LRT Evergreen or the SRT (now there's a bit of technological irony in a discussion of Vancouver).

*Frankly, I can almost guarantee that one thing or another about the C-Line's design WILL bite us in the next 20-30 years (and not necessarily because it's a horrible line, but there are SO MANY oddities and incompatibilities with the rest of the system), be it train size, unique technology, single track, etc. It does look like the trains won't be OVERLY hard to get though, they seem to be pretty standard sized rapid transit cars in very short trains.

I swear, the Canada Line trains are almost always more crowded than the trains I've been in Hong Kong and Taipei......and it's largely due to the very inefficient seat arrangement we have because "Vancouverites don't like staring at each other".

[trofirhen]

What exactly is the thick dark red line going from UBC down along 41st? An express bus line?

[The_Henry_Man]

Originally Posted by mr.x

I swear, the Canada Line trains are almost always more crowded than the trains I've been in Hong Kong and Taipei......and it's largely due to the very inefficient seat arrangement we have because "Vancouverites don't like staring at each other".

What's just as bad? The lack of overhead rail bars and ring hangers through the middle of the trains, on both MK I/II and Rotem (those dinky ones on Rotem don't count. The ones on the newer MKII trains aren't good enough).

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

What exactly is the thick dark red line going from UBC down along 41st? An express bus line?

I was thinking some sort of separated LRT (ideally tunneled but traffic separated if funding prohibits a submerged line). Obviously this is far down the road and in the interim a B line bus would bridge the gap from today to when this is a feasible venture.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

I was thinking some sort of separated LRT (ideally tunneled but traffic separated if funding prohibits a submerged line). Obviously this is far down the road and in the interim a B line bus would bridge the gap from today to when this is a feasible venture.

Nice idea, but is there enough density along West 41st to support an LRT line? It's mostly wealthy single home residential. I like your idea, but I wonder if there will be enough ridership to support it.

Perhaps people coming from denser areas east of Cambie would be the main ridership market.

[CLC]

#41+#43+#49 have 50000-60000 boardings per day, by North America standard it is about enough demand for a LRT line.

[LeftCoaster]

I don't know if it is there right now, but like I said this is a ways in the future. Really the density seems similar to what is seen around the Canada line down Cambie, with the only difference being that it does not lead to downtown.

What you cant see on the map however is that I envision this line linking up to metrotown and then heading north to Brentwood, thereby linking UBC with Oakridge, Metrowtown, BCIT and Brentwood and also providing a more southerly E/W line across Vancouver proper.

Also I've updated the map and shown the streetcar lines heading into downtown. Somehow I missed the top portion of the map when I originally sketched it out. Paint must have cut it off.

[deasine]

I always envisioned a LRT line going down the surface 41st as well. There's definitely a lot of potential for density (and ridership), especially at nodes around Dunbar, Arbutus/Kerrisdale, Oak Street (CMBC old OMC still there), Oakridge, Main, Victoria, and Kingsway/Collingwood. For some reason, I see the need to completely replace the 41 bus as well, so the LRT would have stops in between the major intersections, but only have 1 or 2 stops versus the 3 to 4 stops right now.

Anyways, this should all be in the transit fantasies thread.

[jsbertram]

I'm curious why these plans seem to have completely ignored the Downtown Streetcar system that CoV is proposing.


From City of Vancouver Downtown Streetcar Project
http://vancouver.ca/engsvcs/transport/streetcar/index.htm



Although the Downtown Streetcar is envisioned to be the local transit alternative for travel within the West End, Downtown, Gastown, South False Creek and Granville Island (and between them), it can be extended from Granville Island to the Arbutus Corridor using the abandoned CPR tracks, and down the Arbutus Corridor to Marpole.

The Downtown Streetcar would connect with Expo/Millennium SkyTrain lines at Waterfront and Main St stations, and would connect with Canada Line SkyTrain line at Waterfront and Olympic stations. By extending the Downtown Streetcar to the Arbutus Corridor, it provides a transfer to the Broadway Corridor (UBC to VCC Clark) Skytrain line

What Vancouver is missing the layered transit that larger cities have. Buses make stops every block or two; Streetcars make stops every four or five blocks; Skytrain has stations every five to ten blocks. Each layer has their role in getting people to their destinations as quickly as possible, and the Broadway Corridor Skytrain line will be the backbone that the other transit modes are built upon.

[trofirhen]

I think you inadvertantly answered your question without knowing it when you said why doesn't Vancouver have the layered approach "...that bigger cities have...."

The mentality here is that of an adolescent city with an insular mentality tripping over itself as it grows up. The city council doesn't think "big city," not yet anyway.

If they did, they'd go look to other cities for examples, but they don't seem to. Brisbane, Australia has a commuter rail system and a subway downtown. Melbourne had an extensive commuter rail system when it was the size than Vancouver is now, and has an extensive subway system which includes the famous "Loop" (giving credit where it's due, Melbourne is twice the size of Vancouver)

Their transport system is one of the best in the world, and is very "layered," as are those of many cities, yet we don't seem to learn from others, which is a shame, and a mistake.

[CLC]

^ Melbourne transport may look good on map, but operation has been bad actually, asks the locals there. It is in crisis mode.

Last year Melbourne trams has undergone national headline there for overhaul of management.

Seems like their metro is as worse:
http://www.theage.com.au/national/melbourne-trains-fail-world-metro-test-20100402-rjuu.html

If you look for public transit that is "doing right" , dont' look at Australia!

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by CLC

^ Melbourne transport may look good on map, but operation has been bad actually, asks the locals there. It is in crisis mode.

Last year Melbourne trams has undergone national headline there for overhaul of management.

Seems like their metro is as worse:
http://www.theage.com.au/national/melbourne-trains-fail-world-metro-test-20100402-rjuu.html

If you look for public transit that is "doing right" , dont' look at Australia!

10-minutes is the highest frequency they have?!!!! Ghastly...

[The_Henry_Man]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

I think you inadvertantly answered your question without knowing it when you said why doesn't Vancouver have the layered approach "...that bigger cities have...."

The mentality here is that of an adolescent city with an insular mentality tripping over itself as it grows up. The city council doesn't think "big city," not yet anyway.

If they did, they'd go look to other cities for examples, but they don't seem to. Brisbane, Australia has a commuter rail system and a subway downtown. Melbourne had an extensive commuter rail system when it was the size than Vancouver is now, and has an extensive subway system which includes the famous "Loop" (giving credit where it's due, Melbourne is twice the size of Vancouver)

Their transport system is one of the best in the world, and is very "layered," as are those of many cities, yet we don't seem to learn from others, which is a shame, and a mistake.

They do, but they only look at little tram systems like the ones at Strasbourg and Rouen. They need to start looking at Asian cities for inspiration instead, where a lot of actual rail rapid transit systems are currently constructed.

But one thing that I really love about our Skytrain system is the speed and frequency. I especially love how it usually beats cars in speed when you travel with them side by side, and that you never have to time the next trains, because the system is almost like a horizontal conveyor belt. And I also love the appearance and profile of the guideways. It always gives me an impression of a monorail system (just look at the oncoming trains gliding into Commercial-Broadway, or Aberdeen). Even though they're still masses of concrete, they are slim, tight-fitting and streamlined. They're so beautifully designed, especially compared to the ones in Seattle, Bangkok, HK etc.

So, we need to continue to focus on finishing up on our main rapid rail transit backbone.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by mr.x

10-minutes is the highest frequency they have?!!!! Ghastly...

Ouch !! I stand corrected. Strange how their systems are so extensive, yet so infrequent.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by The_Henry_Man

They do, but they only look at little tram systems like the ones at Strasbourg and Rouen. They need to start looking at Asian cities for inspiration instead, where a lot of actual rail rapid transit systems are currently constructed.

But one thing that I really love about our Skytrain system is the speed and frequency. I especially love how it usually beats cars in speed when you travel with them side by side, and that you never have to time the next trains, because the system is almost like a horizontal conveyor belt. And I also love the appearance and profile of the guideways. It always gives me an impression of a monorail system (just look at the oncoming trains gliding into Commercial-Broadway, or Aberdeen). Even though they're still masses of concrete, they are slim, tight-fitting and streamlined. They're so beautifully designed, especially compared to the ones in Seattle, Bangkok, HK etc.

So, we need to continue to focus on finishing up on our main rapid rail transit backbone.

Very good points. I wonder why they look at little systems like Strasbourg or Rouen, as you say. Ever been on the Frankfurt metro? Or Munich? WOW!! Europe has great systems, too -- in the larger cities.

[jlousa]

I really don't think it's fair to think Vancouver doesn't think big, heck they (or at least until very recently) have the longest automated line in the world. Pretty damn impressive for a city our size. What would be a more fair assessment is that we aren't a big city and can't afford all the things we want.

[nname]

Originally Posted by jlousa

I really don't think it's fair to think Vancouver doesn't think big, heck they (or at least until very recently) have the longest automated line in the world. Pretty damn impressive for a city our size. What would be a more fair assessment is that we aren't a big city and can't afford all the things we want.

They'll held that title until August 2011, assuming no furthur delays.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by jlousa

I really don't think it's fair to think Vancouver doesn't think big, heck they (or at least until very recently) have the longest automated line in the world. Pretty damn impressive for a city our size. What would be a more fair assessment is that we aren't a big city and can't afford all the things we want.

Yes. We have a large automated system, it's true. But as The Henry Man pointed out, they go to towns like Lille and Rouen for learning experiences. In addition to some comparable cities in Asia (which are ususally much bigger and very much denser) why don't they look at Frankfurt, Munich, Copenhagen, etc? That's what I meant by a small-town mentality.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by jlousa

What would be a more fair assessment is that we aren't a big city and can't afford all the things we want.

People on this forum often sound like children who have never learned the unfortunate but unavoidable limitations of adult life. The government's budget is no different than your own. It is finite. You cannot spend according to whatever your heart desires.

And where does this "they only study small cities" idea come from? That is simply someone's opinion being treated as fact. How naive...