Rail-based Transit Discussion

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby

^ How wide is the cut right now in most places? Enough for 3 tracks?

I don't believe so - I think it was made wide enough for 2 tracks only. The ROW for the cut though would be widder; at least it seems that way on the HRM GIS, suggesting that should it have been needed; it could be widdened.

If that's the case, you could widen it but it might cause some issues for properties right up against the edge of the right of way. Not to mention potential disruption to the rail service with the equipment necessary to dig it out.

But if you could widen it; then potentially you could seperate the rail and then have a 2 lane wide bus lane - but only up to the point where the track is 1 track - once it was back to 2 tracks; then you'd have to setup a system to stop inbound buses to allow outbound out in the portion that would be one lane.

The other issue is once you get the bus lane in there - where does it come out? Would you take it all the way down to the train station or have it come out sooner?

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

I don't believe so - I think it was made wide enough for 2 tracks only. The ROW for the cut though would be widder; at least it seems that way on the HRM GIS, suggesting that should it have been needed; it could be widdened.

If that's the case, you could widen it but it might cause some issues for properties right up against the edge of the right of way. Not to mention potential disruption to the rail service with the equipment necessary to dig it out.

But if you could widen it; then potentially you could seperate the rail and then have a 2 lane wide bus lane - but only up to the point where the track is 1 track - once it was back to 2 tracks; then you'd have to setup a system to stop inbound buses to allow outbound out in the portion that would be one lane.

The other issue is once you get the bus lane in there - where does it come out? Would you take it all the way down to the train station or have it come out sooner?

You wouldn't have to widen it... the second track has been completely taken up and there is still room between the rockwall and the other track regardless.

I think this could be effective if a test was put in place between Mumford and downtown with simple open pad stations with stairways up to street level. Total investment could be put out to tender and I doubt would be all that more expensive than laying a new street in a subdivision.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

You wouldn't have to widen it... the second track has been completely taken up and there is still room between the rockwall and the other track regardless.

I think this could be effective if a test was put in place between Mumford and downtown with simple open pad stations with stairways up to street level. Total investment could be put out to tender and I doubt would be all that more expensive than laying a new street in a subdivision.

Sorry I may not have been clear in my thought - in the areas where there was only 1 rail track; you could potentially have 2 lanes for bus travel in and outbound. The issue will be where the second track comes into play - you'll be reduced to one bus lane. So you'll have to find a way to ensure the buses can come in and outbound; without running into each other. Now if the ROW for the rail cut is wider than it's current width - then it could be expanded in the areas containing 2 tracks; thus allowing 2 tracks and 2 lanes for buses.

(that's what I was originally thinking).

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby

^ The amount of passengers needed to justify automated rail are far far out of Halifax's league, plus I am pretty sure there would be huge opposition to the trains downtown. You need a system that for metro's population is affordable - building the Canada Line Halifax edition is definitely not.

Not really. The Canada Line was dramatically more expensive than would be necessary in Halifax because of the tunnels (about half underground, mostly bored), wider trains, water crossings, and so on. It's also worth pointing out that Vancouver doesn't just have the Canada Line - the SkyTrain system is just under 70 kilometres long in total. A very useful transit backbone could be built with 5-10 kilometres of track in Halifax.

Having an automated system is a cost advantage and makes it easier to have higher frequencies, night service, etc. The drawback presently is that this requires a dedicated right of way (I doubt this will be necessary for much longer given computer vision technology, but who knows about legal limitations?) but Halifax can totally afford building a few kilometres of concrete pylons with track on top. Tunnels would quickly become very expensive but are unnecessary. Of course, it would also be possible to use such a route as a busway (something similar was done in Seattle with a tunnel, but long term it doesn't seem like the greatest scheme, and the train from the airport now is just sad).

At the end of the day the biggest thing is that I wish people in Halifax would appreciate the scale of the city and cost of transportation projects a little more. It's great to buy new buses and build $10M terminals but major cities are investing billions - in Halifax terms this would imply allocating perhaps $300-400M for a transit project, and that has never even remotely been on the table.

[hfx_chris]

Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby

As for normal street operation and buses vs. trolleys vs. streetcars, streetcars are definitely superior if you put in place the policies to support them.

I dunno.. I've seen the streetcar vs trolley coach debate many times before, and honestly I've always preferred trolleys. I mean sure the streetcar is a simpler beast from a purely mechanical point of view, but you've got to content with not only the cost of stringing overhead, but also tracks, track maintenance, annoyance to pedestrians/cyclists/drivers... I mean it really says something to a city's commitment when they embark on a piece of public infrastructure that is so permanent, but what if someday you wanted to change a route remove service from an area? A lot simpler if all you have to move/add is the overhead. And again, stuff like detours is nearly impossible unless you have a fairly large system with multiple options.

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

although I'm sorry to say this, but when I saw you nick name, all I could think was Mr. Humprey's are you free?
...
As to the trolly discussion - if you could do a trolly that wouldn't require an overhead line; I'm all for it - I don't really like those overhead lines.

Yes, I'm free Captain Peacock!

Anyway. A trolley without overhead power. So basically a hybrid vehicle, of which transit is currently operating two
Y'know, the thing about the overhead... yeah it may add a bit of visual clutter, but it does have a psychological affect. It almost adds a sense of permanency to the system. It's there. It isn't going anywhere, it'll always be there, it's a serious thing. Plus there's the whole fact that deep down people do have certain biases against certain modes of transportation. Would you rather take a bus to Moncton or the train, if you could have the choice? Would you rather take a smelly old diesel bus, or a hybrid? How about a trolley? (by the way, it pains me to write the words "smelly old diesel bus" since I love diesel buses...but I recognize not everyone does)
Not to mention the fact it would be 100% clean at street level. A hybrid bus still has a diesel engine that runs from time to time.

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

I think this could be effective if a test was put in place between Mumford and downtown with simple open pad stations with stairways up to street level. Total investment could be put out to tender and I doubt would be all that more expensive than laying a new street in a subdivision.

I could definitely see a stop at Mumford, but I wouldn't want the next one until you're in downtown. Have you ever seen some of those areas in the rail cut? It's nothing but homeless people and abandoned garbage. I wouldn't want to be standing on a concrete pad waiting for a bus down there... not to mention the accessibility problem, you'd need elevators, and now you're getting into a more permanent solution. However if LRT went through there, I could see proper stations installed, specifically one at South for the Dal students, and one at Tower for the SMU students.


I attended a talk a few years ago about the possibility of a LRT system running along the Dartmouth subdivision, from Windsor Juction to the Woodside ferry terminal, with a stop at Alderney Gate - and a few others, I can't recall. As somebody here said, yes you're adding the extra ferry ride from either Alderney or Woodside, but that's only a 10 minute ride, and it would get you closer to downtown than say a Budd RDC car to the Via station. Either way you'll need to some second form of transportation to get you into the core area, whether it's a shuttle bus or a ferry.
Maybe I'll see if he still has his presentation... it was quite interesting.

[halifaxboyns]

It seems to me the more we discuss this issue, the more we see how complex it is.

There seems to be rough agreement that no matter what is built (either heavy rail in existing rail cut or LRT in a new ROW); it's going to probably be quite expensive.

I'd easily guess way more expensive than the Canada line if a lot of tunnels are needed - plus add to that the impact of having an elevated train - how would people react?

It would be really interesting if the population growth of Halifax started going up over the 2.5 to 3% a year. Especially if it got up into around the 5% range for a good period of time say; 5 to 10 years. Then you'd be looking at somewhere around 15 to 20k people moving in - would inspire the need for a review of the transportation plan.

[halifaxboyns]

Looks like the new MAster Plan for the old China Town site has proposed some higher density - which may lend itself to a high speed ferry or rail station.

[fenwick16]

This is my idea for a LRT rail system. The Old Ashburn Golf Coarse would have to be acquired and converted to parking/development so commuters would be able to park and then take the LRT train downtown (light rail system). This location is close to highways, the bridge to Dartmouth, and rail lines to West Halifax (Timberlea line) and Bedford.

This is routed from the Old Ashburn Golf Course along the harbour (since there is an existing track) through the DND dockyards parking and then finally through a short 2 - 3 kilometer single track system through downtown Halifax (subway). I think that this would be one of the least expensive options and it would promote grow in the Halifax North End along the waterfront. A 2 -3 kilometer elevated track through the downtown section might be cheaper than subway, but over time this would become an eyesore (example the Chicago elevated train system) - thus my preference for a short single track subway through downtown Halifax. I think that the single track could be bored/tunneled (as opposed to tearing up roads and building it directly under the streets). During the Harbour Solutions construction, a 1 kilometer tunnel was built under the downtown, so this idea isn't as far fetched and expensive as it might appear). Having it single track would decrease the tunnel size requirement. It would then have a short loop through the downtown core which allows turning of the light train.

I think this would cost a few hundred million to build, including the trains and stations. However, I think it would be far cheaper than building a third harbour crossing. If a third harbour crossing did become necessary in the future then twinning the MacKay bridge would be a favourable option since it would be close to the LRT and a LRT track could then be built across the second MacKay Bridge crossing. This system would tend to promote growth to the west of the Halifax Peninsula (Bayers Lake/Timberlea areas).

If the Halifax metro area is allowed to grow to a million people over the next 50 years (this would be about 1.8% annual growth) then I think something like this will be required. In fact by the time Halifax gets to 500,000 - 600,000 then I think that this will be required (the next 10 - 20 years). PS: I should re-state that; some Rapid Transit system will be required not necessarily the one that I have indicated.

PS: As the North End Waterfront starts to develop then part of the above ground system could be buried (become subway).



PS: This document ( http://www.halifax.ca/metrotransit/documents/CommuterRail.pdf ) states that: The lands across which the north end line traveled have now been redeveloped and can no longer realistically be re-assembled into a rail corridor. Not even if money is committed to do it? I will look at it in a bit more detail with Bing Maps.

[reddog794]

I might see a problem with the idea of a train going through the Navy Yards, unless they build an above ground tunnel, entering, the yards and leading to the sub-level track. Hiding the train from the base, and the base from the train.

Even have a stop there, make it secured, and only those with military id can "swipe" through. Shoot have them "swipe on" at the stations, so that way the train would know to stop there, if no military personnel swipe on, then the train goes by.

Even at the ship yards you could have the same system. Save on the number of stops on the entrance to DT.

[Wishblade]

Originally Posted by reddog794

I might see a problem with the idea of a train going through the Navy Yards, unless they build an above ground tunnel, entering, the yards and leading to the sub-level track. Hiding the train from the base, and the base from the train.

Even have a stop there, make it secured, and only those with military id can "swipe" through. Shoot have them "swipe on" at the stations, so that way the train would know to stop there, if no military personnel swipe on, then the train goes by.

Even at the ship yards you could have the same system. Save on the number of stops on the entrance to DT.

You wouldn't need to run the train behind the gates of the dockyard. The large parking lot and adjacent roadway you see is not owned by DND, but by the city. There is already bus service that goes down this roadway so theres no reason why a train couldn't either.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by Wishblade

You wouldn't need to run the train behind the gates of the dockyard. The large parking lot and adjacent roadway you see is not owned by DND, but by the city. There is already bus service that goes down this roadway so theres no reason why a train couldn't either.

Really? That land must be worth a fortune... you could put a whole north skyline on those lots.

[Wishblade]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

Really? That land must be worth a fortune... you could put a whole north skyline on those lots.

It's hard to give up the land because so many work in the dockyard. I work down there and it would probably be pretty devestating without the parking unfortunately.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Wishblade

You wouldn't need to run the train behind the gates of the dockyard. The large parking lot and adjacent roadway you see is not owned by DND, but by the city. There is already bus service that goes down this roadway so theres no reason why a train couldn't either.

That opens up a lot of possibilities for LRT and development. A parking garage could be built for the DND dockyard employees to free up land for development.

[-Harlington-]

the map is a good idea but id like to see the south end serviced as well making Mumford more of a commuter terminal with rail and bus, also the tracks from Joe Howe some of which they have ripped up go all the way through the armdale area to bayers lake and beachville lakeside timberlea and would be a good place to.
and if all that is feasible there is a good bit of tracks through dartmouth and maybe if the city makes the 3rd bridge at any point it could include a rail line.

[fenwick16]

This is another possibility for a very short single track system (red line - above ground, green line - subway or elevated track). Since it is only one track going through the downtown (in one direction) in order to get from the Maritime Centre to Scotia Square, one would have to go west to the transfer station and then transfer to a east bound train at the transfer station.

To make this even cheaper, or to start with, it could be just one track downtown to the Scotia Square area. It could have two trains with double track at the halfway point to allow trains to pass. (or since it is so short, it could just be one train on one track). The first stage would be just 4 kilometers of single track, partly above ground and partly below ground.

The Old Ashburn Golf Course would have to be bought and converted to parking and commercial/residential development. The main advantage of this system is that it gets people off the peninsula to the Old Ashburn Golf course location where they can park their cars or, in the future, get connecting LRT trains going to Timberlea and Bedford. PS: A less expensive option would be to have it terminate at the West End Mall. From this location there are CN tracks to Bedford and Timberlea and good highway connections.

Having a very modern LRT would encourage people to park their cars and travel by the LRT downtown. This would have to run on a regular fast cycle so that people would be able to get on at any time of the day without much wait. This system is not much longer than the inter-connecting terminal trains at some large airports like Seattle which is 2.7 km long (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite_Transit_System) and Atlanta which is 4.7 km long (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartsfield-...rnational_Airport_Automated_People_Mover). I think of this as a horizontal elevator. The distance from the Old Ashburn Golf Course to downtown would be about 4 kilometers. The Seattle airport system uses Bombardier CX-100 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_CX-100). This system is being used in a downtown Miami route which is 7.1 km long and is called the metromover (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metromover). This system sounds like it would work well in a medium size city that can't support a full subway system. These systems are unmanned and referred to as automated people movers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_mover). Other examples are: Link Train at the Person Airport which is 1.5 km long and cost $55 million in 2002 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LINK_Train). Here is a list of people movers at airports: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airport_people_mover_systems.

Another example is the Detroit People Mover which is 4.7 km long: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_People_Mover. Based on the price of a planned expansion for this Detroit system and the short Toronto Airport Link Train, the Halifax system would likely cost $200 - 300 million. These systems are similar to the Vancouver Skytrain but the Skytrain is a much longer system.

[haligonia]

Why not have a loop starting and ending at the old Ashburn;

You could have a single track running around the whole peninsula, some spots above ground ( i.e. the railcut ) some spots below ground. ( i.e. downtown/navy dockyards) In the railcut you could possibly install a stop along beaufort ave (access to dal/smu, maybe an express bus to the hospitals) with a simple elevator and staircase down to the tracks and the main station at street level. This could be followed by stops at the via station after which it could dip underground, downtown (spring garden, scotia square?) and possibly one more at the dockyards before looping back to the old ashburn which could be a hub for access by bus/rail to Bedford/sackville and maybe out to timberlea. With this configuration you would only need one track for the whole peninsula.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by haligonia

Why not have a loop starting and ending at the old Ashburn;

You could have a single track running around the whole peninsula, some spots above ground ( i.e. the railcut ) some spots below ground. ( i.e. downtown/navy dockyards) In the railcut you could possibly install a stop along beaufort ave (access to dal/smu, maybe an express bus to the hospitals) with a simple elevator and staircase down to the tracks and the main station at street level. This could be followed by stops at the via station after which it could dip underground, downtown (spring garden, scotia square?) and possibly one more at the dockyards before looping back to the old ashburn which could be a hub for access by bus/rail to Bedford/sackville and maybe out to timberlea. With this configuration you would only need one track for the whole peninsula.

I would certainly like to see a loop around the peninsula. However, CN would have to allow it. With a single track - either trains must only go in one direction (which can work with short loops and then have double track in some areas) or there has to be areas of double track where trains can pass and have them go in both directions (which might be possible).

If there is a single track around the entire peninsula, then I don't think that having trains go in one direction would be practical (for going in short distances in the opposite direction). I haven't given this a lot of thought, so there might be practical ways of doing it.

Another idea for the dockyards route is to have BRT going around the peninsula in the North End direction. Then track isn't required, just a Right of Way which might not be too expensive to set up, since some of the right of way already exist.

The West Mall could be used instead of the Old Ashburn Golf site to keep the cost down (I haven't had time to redraw it).

As the city grows, it might make sense to have a couple of separate (but connected) routes - one for the North End of the peninsula and one for the most densely populated areas of downtown (with a transfer point). The North End route would take the development strain off the current downtown area. The downtown route could be close enough to the universities to handle this sector. Then when a third harbour crossing is required it could be the cheaper option of twinning (with a second bridge) the MacKay bridge, versus the longer and more expensive south end route.

[fenwick16]

I did a quick sketch of a light rapid transit system with all single track (about 6 - 7 km in total).

The main loop is up Spring Garden Road to Dalhousie University and then back down University Avenue to Barrington Street. I like this route since it goes past both Universities, hospitals and Spring Garden Road shopping areas. This main loop would be about 3 km. I think a people mover system would work on this route similar to what is used in many large airports (ex: Toronto Link Train) and also the Miami Metromover system and Detroit People Mover system. However, for this to be effective, I think it would have to be a tunnel (which is best during the winter and will not be an eyesore). Making it single track would keep the cost down. The spur lines to downtown Halifax and the West Mall could be added as a later stage. In fact to keep the cost down, it could initially be just one train, on one track going up and down Spring Garden Road (no loop). Then if the capacity was sufficient, the loop could be completed.

This would benefit all of Halifax, however, it would especially benefit Dalhousie University since it provides a quick connection to all three campuses (Sexton, Studley and Carleton). I wonder if Dalhousie U., HRM, Nova Scotia, and Federal government could all contribute to this?

[someone123]

Interesting post.

I think it would be useful to consider some of the trains around major airports. These are built on a scale similar to what would be useful for getting people around core parts of the peninsula. They're typically separate lines with unique vehicles, so the costs would also be comparable to setting up a new system in Halifax (higher than just expanding a line).

The Pearson LINK cost $55M for 1.5 km. The JFK train was $1.9B but is 13 km and much more elaborate. This station is very cool though (despite the 10 minutes waiting for an elevator):



I think it would be totally worth it for Halifax to spend $100-200M on something like this for the core that basically replaces buses along the major routes.

[someone123]

Here's a route I made up:



I could imagine there being lots of room for improving the specific stations but this captures the idea of what I mean when I talk about rail to serve the downtown/peninsula.