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  #5101  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2010, 1:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Whaler View Post
The Irving Oil group is spread all over the city. The plan was to bring them all under one roof. The second refinery was a small factor but not the deciding factor.
Ever since the "Big Break Up" they have been scrambling for office space.
They also knew what they were in for at Long Wharf. This had little bearing on this decision.
The real problem is with the City Management (or lack of). This is one reason that Moncton does well.
The city screwed up before....this is why Irving Paper went to Moncton and not an expansion at "Simms Corner"!
This city needs to wake up!!
The City can and should do better when it comes to business attraction and retention. That said, I don't think City Hall is what slowed Long Wharf so much as federal port related laws.

In trying to create a diverse economic base we should be open to spending some money and effort on attracting the right projects. Still, we need to be wise in our efforts and make sure the population is okay with the spending (our last business-first mayor didn't fair so well when he went up for re-election even though he was aggressive in trying to bring projects to town).
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  #5102  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2010, 1:20 PM
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Originally Posted by GregHickman View Post
Also, all of the in-fighting between JDI & IOL isn't helping much.
A thought on this. Healthy economies are not supposed to have monopolies or monopsonies. JDI and IOL fighting and acting more like competitive market participants than guilded age barons could be good for the local economies of NB.
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  #5103  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2010, 8:09 PM
SJTOKO SJTOKO is offline
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So, I haven't been posting a lot lately.

Why?

Well, let's see. 6 months we were all on here talking about the great projects proposed for Saint John. Three ten story condominiums on the West Side, refurbishment of Partridge Island, water ferries, Casino, the list goes on and on. ENERY HUB, they said. The fastest growing city in the East they said. And now? NOTHING. Absolutely NOTHING. The buzz is gone, completely gone. And why is this?

IVAN

COURT

Along with the fact that the young Irving’s don't have any sentimental connection here anymore. They will build and invest in places where they can make money.

This is how Saint John entered this decade of hope and potential prosperity.

Kenneth Irving: Mr. Court, Irving Oil would like to purchase Long Wharf and build our beautiful new world headquarters. We would also like to build a second cruise ship birth.

Ivan Court (Thinking he's being bullied) I can make more money off of Long Wharf if I turn it into a parking lot.

Kenneth Irving *sigh* Go ahead, waste this once in a lifetime opportunity and turn this world class property into a parking lot.

And with those final words, the hopes and dreams of making Saint John into a boomtown were dashed, crushed, pulverized into dust. Why? Because of this old redneckesque, backwards thinking mentality that is VERY prevalent in Saint John, especially among those who work for the ole Port of Saint John. These people make me sick. Saint John makes me sick (I'm SO glad I left that place). I encourage everyone to get out while they can.

I never thought I'd say this, but I'm actually HAPPY for Moncton. They love their city, they're ambitious. It's their time to shine now. Once the Irving Empire is divided up. Once all the sentimental perks that Saint John get's from the older generation of Irving’s who still put up with this garbage from political neanderthals like Mr. Court die off. What's left? Crumbling infrastructure and a legacy of potential that was never fully realized. An industrial wasteland clouded with a century's worth of failure.

R.I.P Saint John New Brunswick.
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  #5104  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2010, 10:48 PM
Pugsley Pugsley is offline
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To the last post...Amen Brother...

I feel your pain. I was born in Saint John, grew up in Freddy, now live in Toronto. I have a real love for both cities and NB as a whole, but things have got to change.

First off, I think the issue is a failure to deliver. I read these posts regularly, get the news from abroad of what is being announced, then you never hear anything about it again. To me, the issue is a failure to deliver what the local politicians envision. They have great ideas, they just don't have the ability to make them happen.

This is typical of many places around the world...so don't get too frustrated by it. The Caribbean is notorious for it. They have an idea, tell the world and the voters about it, and build lots of buzz. The problem is...they have an idea but no expertise to execute or make it a reality.

The brain drain on the province has a big part to do with it. The most successful cities have a collective of smart people who simply do smart things. They develop new retail, technnologies, and concepts and as a result, the local area benefits. They don't act arogant about it. They don't boast about what they plan on doing...they simply do it.

In NB, too much time is spent talking and boasting about potential scenarios. We are going to create the biggest this. We are going to revolutionize that. The problem is that they are talking the talk, but don't realize that the local resources are unable to walk the walk. The government of Alberta didn't one day wake up and say heh, we should be the biggest energy player in the world...let's see if we have oil and see if people will come and bring their business savvy and make us a star. It just doesn't work that way.

There are great opportunities in NB, but the governement is never going to be a part of making things happen here. The might think so, but there hasn't been a single governement on earth that has dictated with such precision that they actually created economies. Economies are created by people, not governments. One simply has to look at the businesses in the province that have been a huge success - they were totally under the radar. They did it without government help, looked at a world stage and went after it.

In Saint John, the situation is a love-hate one with the Irvings - always has been and always will be. It is sad if the local governement decided not to embrace their biggest employer and your points are valid - they probably did F it up. But at the end of the day, this is not going to change until a new breed of young, educated, and smart NB'er returns and shakes things up. They won't shake it up by becomming a half-🞵🞵🞵 premier with big-ideas that go nowhere (you know who I am talking about). Instead, they will be a smart entrepreneur who will come back and change the local economy with a great idea.

Until then, sit tight...it is going to happen. I believe it has actually started, but remember, these folks are always under the radar so you may not see what they are doing - even if their impact is immense down the road.
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  #5105  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2010, 6:07 AM
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Originally Posted by michael_d40 View Post
McAllister Place sent me an email this afternoon to do a survey with them. One of the questions was:

Which, if any, of the following stores would bring you to McAllister Place to shop? If you don’t know enough about the store to evaluate it please select “I don’t know enough about this store to evaluate it.”


Bath & Body Works
Jacob
Eddie Bauer
H&M
Quilts Etc.
Tommy Hilfiger

Yes No I don’t know enough about this store to evaluate it

Perhaps more stores are in the mix for McAllister Place to go with their recent renovation?
Personally, I think either Mcallister Place or East Point need to expand in the direction of entertainment. A Crystal Palace/Magic Mountain kind of development like Moncton, but in the same complex. If I had the funds/connections, this is what I would have looked in to years ago.
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  #5106  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2010, 6:15 AM
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Originally Posted by kwajo View Post
Also Irving never addressed the issues of the sea wall itself. One look at Long Wharf and it's obvious that it can't handle storm surges. Take yesterday for example, at high tide the waves were cresting over the top of the wharf - how's that going to be a good thing of a $20-$30 million dollar office building if it's got salt water washing in the front doors every time there's a storm? The wharf needed to be raised to the height of the Hilton's, but I guarantee that would have at least doubled the cost of the project rather easily. If the consultants told Fort Reliance that, I bet it was a factor in ditching the proposal as well.
It was further rhetoric of Lepreau 2 and IOL Refinery 2. And for anyone who remembers the condos set for the west side, yes they're scrap as well.

But the BS worked, our economy is doing okay and the Seadogs are set to win!
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  #5107  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2010, 5:09 PM
SJTOKO SJTOKO is offline
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Ivan Court in today's newspaper.



Sorry no photoshop. Kwajo, can you fix it?
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  #5108  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2010, 5:36 PM
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I agree with Stojko.
Saint John has been dying for over 30 years & nothing has changed for the better.
Oh, we've got more malls now---yipppeeee! Now, I really want to move to SJ.
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  #5109  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2010, 5:51 PM
RaginRonic RaginRonic is offline
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Originally Posted by SJTOKO View Post


Sorry no photoshop. Kwajo, can you fix it?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh Stojko, you just made the heart of this wrestling fan happy today, man!



That's funny stuff right there...but at least Paul would have some good ideas for Saint John.
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  #5110  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2010, 6:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Helladog View Post
It was further rhetoric of Lepreau 2 and IOL Refinery 2. And for anyone who remembers the condos set for the west side, yes they're scrap as well.

But the BS worked, our economy is doing okay and the Seadogs are set to win!
While I'm sure mismanagement at city hall has played a part, you hit the nail on the head with respect to the refinery and Lepreau. The speculation going on was extreme, and it was inevitable that some pretty significant projects would be proposed on spec alone. The problem with any kind of bubble is that it doesn't take much for it to burst. The economic downturn, and boondoggle that the reactor refurbishment has turned into were all it took. It really was a perfect storm. And here we are today.

But SJ still has a lot going for it. The Fortress of Vengeance project is impressive, and the bridge restoration, 1 Mile House project, and Route 1 widening are all valuable infrastructure improvements. There's the new medical school, student centre at UNBSJ, the retail and real-estate projects going up around the city as well. The thing to remember is to keep the momentum going. If the city lets the loss of those two major projects beat it down, then SJ will stagnate.
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  #5111  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2010, 6:22 PM
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Originally Posted by mylesmalley View Post
student centre at UNBSJ,
You mean the all-glass building with no insulation that they're putting up? Which actually isn't environmentally friendly at all and won't be tied into the underground tunnel system?

And for all of the bad press you guys are giving Ivan, if I hear Bruce go on again about roads on the east side i'm going to rip my ears out. That's all that man ever goes on about.
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  #5112  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2010, 8:03 PM
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Thick glass? :p
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  #5113  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2010, 8:09 PM
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Thick glass? :p
Put it this way: It's going to be unbearable hot in the summer and unbearable cold in the winter. At least, from what i've heard that's going to be the case.
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  #5114  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2010, 8:11 PM
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It's been my experience that practicality is rarely a consideration when designing academic buildings.
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  #5115  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2010, 5:09 AM
manhattan08 manhattan08 is offline
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Problem

I think the real problem with this city is that theres too many people of a older generation (our mayors age) living within the city itself that simply like it the way it is and don't want it to change. People with the "not in my backyard" attitude that don't want to embrace anything new within the city. A city where the council is mostly made up of that generation and believe in the same ideas. It's a city that if something isnt done quick will dwindle to a ghost town with tumble weeds blowing across the main streets..(Oh wait I think that has already happened).

Walking around uptown last week I started thinking what embarrising place this is. Now I have always believed that home is where the heart is and you should give some respect to where you were born but this place I really don't know. Walking down Prince William Street past Saint John High and looking at ashpault sidewalks all jagged and crumbling away, old parking meters leaning over showing the test of time, faded parallel parking lines, cracked streets with sloppy patch jobs and telephone polls rising from the sidewalks with lines crisscrossing the street...I then walk down other streets with buildings showing age, paint peeling off, sagging steps and weeded overrun front gardens and thought to myself who would really want to live here. It amazes me how Saint John use to be thriving metropolis back in the day of the ship building industry, to see a old map with London England, New York, and Saint John shown in bold as one of the leading cities in the world to now having suffered so much to end up like this. I do believe that change is coming, slowly, but surely, and as this elder generation begins to dwindle I believe this city can grow into something extradonary but not for a long time yet. So for the meantime I will remain frusted with the vacant prime harbourfront lots, cry when the buildings are demolished to make way for yet another parking lot and grumble at the sheer state of the city.
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  #5116  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2010, 5:10 PM
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Just wanted to counter some of the posts that have been coming on her recently.

Regarding some of the more major projects that have fallen through, some thoughts:

1. Irving Oil Refinery: This was questionable from Day 1. I had always wondered in an economy where markets are attempting to get away from fossil fuels, why expanding on this was going to help Saint John's economy.

2. Irving Headquarters: While an impressive project, there were other major projects moving forward before this announcement. I can't say this is a make or break situation. With hopefully the Coast Guard development getting the go ahead later this year and possibly a new Y on the waterfront, there is some reason to be positive.

3. Point Lepreau II: Thais was always a pipe dream. It was always ever talk and never was there anything to say it was officially going to go ahead.

While I have been in Ottawa for the last 5 years, being born and bred in Saint John, my plan has always been to come back. I started visiting this forum to keep informed of all of the great things that were happening in Saint John. I visit the Ottawa page on here as well, and trust me, it's not just a "Saint John syndrome" that prevents things from moving forward. I've realised that all cities have hurdles and heartaches to go through and that there will always be the need for improvements. Over the last 5-6 years, whenever I have come back home for a visit, I am amazed by the transformation the city has undergone in that time and it almost feels like a different city sometimes.

So I propose to continue to see Saint John for what it has and can continue to be rather that what it will never be and cannot. Nothing has ever moved ahead with that frame of mind. I know I don't post on here much, and perhaps some of you may feel my arguments don't hold much weight, but I couldn't not respond after reading some of the more recent posts.
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  #5117  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2010, 5:59 PM
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...
and possibly a new Y on the waterfront
...
What are everyone's thoughts on having the new Y built on Long Wharf and having it tied into Harbour Passage?
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  #5118  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2010, 6:50 PM
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Originally Posted by GregHickman View Post
What are everyone's thoughts on having the new Y built on Long Wharf and having it tied into Harbour Passage?
I think that is a great idea. Maybe it could be part of a pedestrian village on long wharf complete with more "robertson wharf"-type condos, boutique retail, office space and of course a second cruise terminal. I think whatever happens on long wharf, it should create some pedestrian buzz. Office space would create weekday lunch-hour buzz, but retail and residential would fill in the gaps. Not to mention, having residential down there would make that section of harbour passage more safe by having more eyes on the trail at night.
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  #5119  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2010, 1:57 AM
JRocca JRocca is offline
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Originally Posted by Southpaw78 View Post
Just wanted to counter some of the posts that have been coming on her recently.

Regarding some of the more major projects that have fallen through, some thoughts:

1. Irving Oil Refinery: This was questionable from Day 1. I had always wondered in an economy where markets are attempting to get away from fossil fuels, why expanding on this was going to help Saint John's economy.

2. Irving Headquarters: While an impressive project, there were other major projects moving forward before this announcement. I can't say this is a make or break situation. With hopefully the Coast Guard development getting the go ahead later this year and possibly a new Y on the waterfront, there is some reason to be positive.

3. Point Lepreau II: Thais was always a pipe dream. It was always ever talk and never was there anything to say it was officially going to go ahead.

While I have been in Ottawa for the last 5 years, being born and bred in Saint John, my plan has always been to come back. I started visiting this forum to keep informed of all of the great things that were happening in Saint John. I visit the Ottawa page on here as well, and trust me, it's not just a "Saint John syndrome" that prevents things from moving forward. I've realised that all cities have hurdles and heartaches to go through and that there will always be the need for improvements. Over the last 5-6 years, whenever I have come back home for a visit, I am amazed by the transformation the city has undergone in that time and it almost feels like a different city sometimes.

So I propose to continue to see Saint John for what it has and can continue to be rather that what it will never be and cannot. Nothing has ever moved ahead with that frame of mind. I know I don't post on here much, and perhaps some of you may feel my arguments don't hold much weight, but I couldn't not respond after reading some of the more recent posts.

The fundamental problem with Saint John continues to be the lack of a vision for the City that citizens and community leaders[ in both the public and private sectors] are committed to and work to implement.
great Cities like great companies have a vision about who they are and where they want to be in the future. Projects are not a vision so projects do not necessarily help a City or a business grow. In many cases,too much focus on lucrative projects is the reason why the fail[eg ,focus by Wall street on sub-prime loans to people that could not afford them]
Does anyone believe that Google, Apple, Microsoft, Irving Oil, and other world class businesses stumbled into what they are doing just by indiscriminately promoting projects or do they have a vision of who and what they want to be and focus only on projects that further that vision?
When I say New York, Paris, Halifax, Fredericton, Ottawa, I know you can tell me what their 'core' business/vision is. But If a visitor from Tokyo asked us what our focus/vision/plan is, he would likely get at least a dozen different visions and 50 different answers as to where we want the City to be 50 years from now.
When you have a vision,you know which projects are important to the realization of the vision/plan and which ones are less important or destructive of the vision.
So, if our vision is to be the energy hub of North America, then the loss of a refinary, a lepreau 2 etc is very meaningful. But If our vision is to be the premier cruise destination centre of Canada, then losing a 2nd cruise terminal at long wharf is extremely serious while mlosing a refinary, a Lepreau 2 etc is less meaningful [and some would argue good things to lose since they detract from the cruise ship vision]
When we don't have a vision for our City, we all promote the projects that fit into our individual vision for the city and our view of the City rises and falls based on how many of our pet projects materialize. That's thee reason for the pessimism in the recent postings.
Smart cities like smart companies have a plan[ie an area of specialization] and work the plan by focussing on those 'projects' that will make them better.
In many cases the 'projects' are not bricks and mortar.
It may be attracting the person recognized to be the best in his/her field that will in turn attract others who want to be with the best as we have seen with sport teams who build a whole franchise around a single player[eg, Crosby] or the medical field where a City is trying to attract the "Crosby' of a particular field to allow it to become the centre of excellence in that particular field
In the absence of a plan,we focus on attracting and developing projects as if all project were of equal value and importance and without any guidelines as to which is important and which is not.
Think of all the most vibrant cities you know- even if you have never visited them- and I guarantee you that you can tell me their area of specialization. And then tell me the names of the less vibrant Cities and I can assure you that you can't tell me their 'core' area of specialization.
Notice the pattern? Focus on projects and you fail.Focus on vision and you are half way to success.
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  #5120  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2010, 2:10 AM
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Originally Posted by JRocca View Post
...
Google, Apple, Microsoft, Irving Oil
...
Not to discredit the rest of your post, but did you just compare Irving to three other hugely influential and power corporations?
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